Original Sin simply means that man cannot gain salvation through our own
works. You will never be good enough to match God's benchmark for good.
Since God realizes this, he has given his only begotten son as a blood
sacrifice to pay for our sins.

AB, I too have never understood the concept of 'original sin'. In truth
I'm not sure any Christian church has a good hold of it. I take that
back, there are many non-denominational Christian churches that
subscribe to the forgiveness that Jesus life and death harbored. These
churches hold to no ritual save the marriage vow. But that does not
explain, why it took so many generations living in/under the original
sin concept, for this forgiveness to apply, or even that the churches I
mention believe that Jesus was required to free us of that sin?

It was my understanding, that the baptism rite was orginated by John the
Baptist, actually this is not the beginning of purification with water,
it was just were Christianity picked it up. That rite was, according
to John TB, and Jesus, to be insignifigant upon Jesus death. Yet the
Catholic church held onto it, even to this day, to clense the soul of
the newly born child of that "original sin". One can not even be part
of any other ritual without this baptismal blessing. This is why many,
most, Catholic Priests can not preside over a funeral of any Catholic,
any person who was not duly baptised.

For some reason, this rite contined to be passed on through to other
Christian sects. Not only passed on, but it became something to be
argued about, so vehimently, as to cause futher division of the
Christian faith.

This is were the concept of original sin and baptism begin to degrade,
as if there could be more degradation of this topic. For the original
hypocracy that started it all, still continues today, and what is even
more astounding is that there are those who will fight, argue, using
some context of other biblical hypocracy to back up thier opinoin.

When does light appear, when do rituals hold no meaning, when does faith
become a personal discovery, made without fear, made without hypocracy,
made by choice and not instilled in, imprinted on, or required of
children?

How can any adult teach, a child, with open mindedness, without fear,
without hypocracy, when the tool they instist on useing to teach from,
is filled with meaningless, erroneous, conflicting information.

Even as adults, look at these threads and ask yourself, why are there so
many who can not understand things that some believers consider natural,
simple, UNQUESTIONABLE, like original sin, baptism, confirmation,
communion?

AB - it's all a mystery to me!

Spider wrote:
“Original Sin simply means that man cannot gain salvation through our
own works. You will never be good enough to match God's benchmark for
good. Since God realizes this, he has given his only begotten son as a
blood sacrifice to pay for our sins.”


God is the creator.

He created a species of humans that are incapable of reaching his
benchmark of perfection?

Who’s fault is that?

He sent his ‘only begotten son’ as a blood sacrifice? A sacrifice to
whom?

Also, I thought we were all supposed to the children of god?

Christ died to pay for our sins?

Who got paid? Why do sins need to be paid for in the first place?

I mean in man’s law a man has to ‘pay’ for his crimes as his own
punishment for having done them.

So how does it make sense for someone else to pay for the sins of a man?
Why not just forgive and forget? I thought God was supposed to be real
good at forgiving.

I’m not trying to pick the religion apart. I’m seriously asking these
questions.

These are legitimate questions.

( in christianity when the egg and the sperm begin development)

Just on a scientific aside, the church new nothing about eggs and sperm
prior to Gregor Mendel’s discover of genetics in the late 1800’s.

They used to believe that the male delivered a completely formed
miniature human being called a ‘homunculus’ into the female. The female
then merely incubated this fully formed human being. The women
contributed NOTHING to her offspring! (This was just another male
chauvinistic view that had existed in Christianity for millennia that
most people aren’t even aware of)

In fact, when Gregor Mendel proposed that both parents do indeed
contribute to the offspring he was hushed up by the church and no longer
permitted to teach. They made a mockery of him and his pea plants.

Gregor Mendel died in 1884 having never been officially recognized for
his scientific contribution to humanity. Some 30 years after his death
in about 1914 other scientists confirmed Mendel’s work and Mendel was
the belatedly named “The Father of Genetics”.

Shortly after that in 1951 DNA was discovered.

Just another example of religion slapping down a great scientist who was
in search of intellectual progress. And now the church uses the sperm
combining with an egg to define ‘conception’. How convenient.

Abracadabra wrote:

God is the creator.

Q: He created a species of humans that are incapable of reaching his
benchmark of perfection?

A: Yes, in a way. God gave us free will and because of it we are
consumed with pride and a desire to do things our way.

Q: Who’s fault is that?

A: Ours.

Q: He sent his ‘only begotten son’ as a blood sacrifice?

A: Yes.

Q: A sacrifice to whom?

A: Everyone

Q: Also, I thought we were all supposed to the children of god?

A: WHo told you that? Jesus taught that we are all the children of
Satan and serve his will, until we are adopted into God's family.

Q: Christ died to pay for our sins?

A: Yes, we already covered that.

Q: Who got paid? Why do sins need to be paid for in the first place?

A: God created laws. Every sin must be paid for with blood. God
allowed the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices, but they were simply
a shadow of what was to come, the sacrifice made by Jesus.

Q: I mean in man’s law a man has to ‘pay’ for his crimes as his own
punishment for having done them.

A: Not true. If you owe a fine, anyone who is willing can pay the
fine.

Q: So how does it make sense for someone else to pay for the sins of a
man?

A: I answered that already.

Q: Why not just forgive and forget?

A: God requires repentance prior to forgiving.

Q: I thought God was supposed to be real good at forgiving.

A: He is.

Q: I’m not trying to pick the religion apart.

A: That would be impossible

Q: I’m seriously asking these questions.

A: They are actually very common, I have answered them dozens of times.
Non-Christians all use the name material.

Q: These are legitimate questions.

A: If you say so.

Abracadabra wrote:
( in christianity when the egg and the sperm begin development)

Just on a scientific aside, the church new nothing about eggs and sperm
prior to Gregor Mendel’s discover of genetics in the late 1800’s.

They used to believe that the male delivered a completely formed
miniature human being called a ‘homunculus’ into the female. The female
then merely incubated this fully formed human being. The women
contributed NOTHING to her offspring! (This was just another male
chauvinistic view that had existed in Christianity for millennia that
most people aren’t even aware of)

In fact, when Gregor Mendel proposed that both parents do indeed
contribute to the offspring he was hushed up by the church and no longer
permitted to teach. They made a mockery of him and his pea plants.

Gregor Mendel died in 1884 having never been officially recognized for
his scientific contribution to humanity. Some 30 years after his death
in about 1914 other scientists confirmed Mendel’s work and Mendel was
the belatedly named “The Father of Genetics”.

Shortly after that in 1951 DNA was discovered.

Just another example of religion slapping down a great scientist who was
in search of intellectual progress. And now the church uses the sperm
combining with an egg to define ‘conception’. How convenient.

======================================================================================

1) Do you have a link to where it describes this as being an accepted
belief of Christians at any point in time?

2) Can you show me where in the Bible this is described as accurate? If
not, then what relavance does it have? Many people believe in many
stupid things. It's not the fault of the Bible of people in the past
had silly beliefs.

3) Every action made by a Christian shouldn't be attributed to
Christianity.

The Bible tells us that life begins at conception
Psalm 51:5
Pure and simple.

Spider,

All of your answers to my questions were technically correct according
to the religion but they were totally devoid of any explanation.

All you did was give me the blind faith answers. I could have listed
those myself. None of your answers gave any rational explanation of
why any of those things were necessary. All you did was confirm the
points that the questions were asking.

If that’s the best you can do why even bother answering them?

As to a link for the information about Gregor Mendel I’m afraid I don’t
have one because that’s not where I got the information. I learned this
years ago in a college classroom when I was taking a course on genetics
and it has stuck with me vividly because I completely identify with
Gregor Mendel. You should be able to find something on it just by doing
a search for ‘homunculus’.

By the way, I never meant to imply that the church made up the term
‘homunculus’. That term itself was made up by scientists prior to
Mendel. But the general belief the man was the sole contributor to his
offspring an idea that was believed by the church (not necessarily
written into the Bible).

Often times churches held things that weren’t specifically written into
the Bible. This was very commonplace. There’s no where in the Bible
where it says that they earth is at the center of creation (at least not
that I’m aware of). If it actually says that then the bible is clearly
wrong. Yet the church held this to be true and severely penalized
Copernicus for suggesting otherwise.

So the Christian church has often held things to be true that aren’t
necessarily in the Bible.

3) Every action made by a Christian shouldn't be attributed to
Christianity.

This is true, but then again, if a church or a large group of people are
claiming to do things in the name of Christianity it’s still the concept
of RELIGION that they are hiding behind and using as an ax.

If you want to stick strictly to the Bible. Well, that’s just a book.
What can a book do? It’s the information in the book and how people use
it that is dangerous.

Kat wrote:
"The Bible tells us that life begins at conception
Psalm 51:5
Pure and simple."

Well without a technical definition of 'conception' what does that mean?

Many people used to say that you are 'conceived' at birth.

Therefore anything prior to the actual birth is prior to conception.

Well, I read and reread that Abra. And read and reread that until I came
up with: yup, guess so. I have no scientific facts. But, according to
what I wrote and showed to be verse; then it would seem so.
I am still thinking about what you said.
Kat

Abracadabra wrote:

Spider,

All of your answers to my questions were technically correct according
to the religion but they were totally devoid of any explanation.

All you did was give me the blind faith answers. I could have listed
those myself. None of your answers gave any rational explanation of
why any of those things were necessary. All you did was confirm the
points that the questions were asking.

========================================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

God is just. That means that if God has a law that includes a
punishment, then the punishment must be applied. That is the reason
that Jesus's sacrifice was necessary, because the fine must be paid by
someone.

========================================================================================

Abracadabra wrote:

If that’s the best you can do why even bother answering them?

========================================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Why ask? Did you think we had a new Bible? We have one Bible and if
it's not in the Bible, then it doesn't pertain to Christian beliefs. I
don' feel the need to add to or remove from the teachings of the bible.

========================================================================================

Abracadabra wrote:

As to a link for the information about Gregor Mendel I’m afraid I don’t
have one because that’s not where I got the information. I learned this
years ago in a college classroom when I was taking a course on genetics
and it has stuck with me vividly because I completely identify with
Gregor Mendel. You should be able to find something on it just by doing
a search for ‘homunculus’.

By the way, I never meant to imply that the church made up the term
‘homunculus’. That term itself was made up by scientists prior to
Mendel. But the general belief the man was the sole contributor to his
offspring an idea that was believed by the church (not necessarily
written into the Bible).

Often times churches held things that weren’t specifically written into
the Bible. This was very commonplace. There’s no where in the Bible
where it says that they earth is at the center of creation (at least not
that I’m aware of). If it actually says that then the bible is clearly
wrong. Yet the church held this to be true and severely penalized
Copernicus for suggesting otherwise.

So the Christian church has often held things to be true that aren’t
necessarily in the Bible.
========================================================================================

SpiderCMB replied:

Okay... But does that reflect on Christians or the Christians who held
that belief?

========================================================================================
Abracadabra wrote:

This is true, but then again, if a church or a large group of people are
claiming to do things in the name of Christianity it’s still the concept
of RELIGION that they are hiding behind and using as an ax.

If you want to stick strictly to the Bible. Well, that’s just a book.
What can a book do? It’s the information in the book and how people use
it that is dangerous.

========================================================================================
SpiderCMB replied:

Christians shouldn't add to or remove from the teachings of the Bible.
If the Word is silent, then we should be to. Christianity is a
relationship wih Jesus, not a religion. It's been abuses and mistreated
through the ages and many religions and doctrine have been created, but
that doesn't in any way speak to Christianity. Anyone who follows Jesus
is a Christian, just because someone belongs to a "Christian" religion,
that doesn't mean they are a Christian.

=============

SpiderCMB replied:

Why ask? Did you think we had a new Bible? We have one Bible and if it's
not in the Bible, then it doesn't pertain to Christian beliefs. I don'
feel the need to add to or remove from the teachings of the bible.

=============

I certainly hope that you don’t add or remove teachings from the bible.
My point is that the Bible doesn’t answer any of these questions. And
your answers were the same answers the bible gives. I already knew
those answers. They aren’t ‘answers’ at all.

In other words, if I ask why does god require repentance, and the
answer is “He just does”. Then that’s no answer at all. That’s
basically just saying “Don’t ask questions, just believe it!”

Why should anyone believe anything when no questions are being answer
with anything other than “Because God says so”

I mean, that’s no an answer. That’s just assuming that the Bible is
the word of God. No questions asked.

I’ve re-listed my questions with your answer below and added additional
comments as to why my questions were never answered.

The point being, I don’t expect you to answer them. I already know that
there aren’t any decent answers. I’ve been asking for answers all my
life to these questions from very highly educated theologians and
apparent there just are no answers other than “Just shut up and
believe!”

That might be good enough for you. But it’s no where near good enough
for me. I need a compelling reason to believe in this God, not just
“Because that ‘s what he says. If he’s a real God and this is a message
to mankind then there should be some answers as to WHY these things are
required of God. Not just because he says so. That’s not an
explanation.

And like I say, I don’t expect YOU to explain this. I’m just pointing
out the fact that these questions aren’t being answered in Bible. I
KNOW you can answer them because the Bible doesn’t answer them.

And that’s my point.

=============

Q: Also, I thought we were all supposed to the children of god?
A: WHo told you that? Jesus taught that we are all the children of Satan
and serve his will, until we are adopted into God's family.

This is news to me! I’ll have to look that one up! If this is true
this is going to open up a whole new can of worms. It’s certainly not
going be an answer. It’s just going to spark a whole bunch more
questions.

Q: Who got paid? Why do sins need to be paid for in the first place?
A: God created laws. Every sin must be paid for with blood. God allowed
the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices, but they were simply a shadow
of what was to come, the sacrifice made by Jesus.

Again, you haven’t answer the question at all. You merely restated the
point that the question asked.

You said “Every sin must be paid for with blood”

The questions is WHY? And WHO is being paid by this action?


Q: I mean in man’s law a man has to ‘pay’ for his crimes as his own
punishment for having done them.
A: Not true. If you owe a fine, anyone who is willing can pay the fine.

You just side-stepped that one. I’m not talking about trivial
misdemeanors here. You can’t take someone else’s place in jail for
murder or rape, etc.


Q: So how does it make sense for someone else to pay for the sins of a
man?
A: I answered that already.

No, you side-stepped it talking about minor fines.

Q: Why not just forgive and forget?
A: God requires repentance prior to forgiving.

Why? That was my question? The question was WHY? Why not forgive and
forget? If God requires repentance then WHY does he require this? It’s
a simply question that god should have made clear in the Bible.

Q: I thought God was supposed to be real good at forgiving.
A: He is.

No he isn’t. You just say that he requires repentance. However even
that wasn’t enough. He actually required payment in BLOOD you said
which is kind of strange considering that god is a spirit.

Q: I’m not trying to pick the religion apart.
A: That would be impossible

No wonder. It’s appears to fall apart on it’s own.

Q: I’m seriously asking these questions.

A: They are actually very common, I have answered them dozens of times.
Non-Christians all use the name material.

Well you haven’t answered any of my questions. You’ve either
side-stepped them or simply restated the very thing that the question
was asking.

Q: These are legitimate questions.
A: If you say so.

Obviously you don’t seem to think they are very important since you
don’t seem to have any answers for them yourself.

This one got left out but it important to me.

======================

Concerning the sacrifice of Jesus.

Q: A sacrifice to whom?
A: Everyone

I think you meant ‘for’ everyone. I didn’t ask who the sacrifice was
FOR.

I asked TO whom the sacrifice was being made.

In other words, once again I'm asking WHY was it necessary?

==================

If the only answer to every WHY question is simply "Because that's what
God requires". Then there are no answers.

Because that's NO answer.

Sin was a concept created by man to manage a culture..

Re-interpreted to fit each generation and the society they lived in...

In my opinion.

Guilt and fear were, and still are, the greatest motivators to
manipulate individuals and the masses..


Bet the man who came up with the concept would be very surprised how
well, and for how long it has worked..

Jess you just hit the nail right on the head.

This is why Christianity is all about sin and salvation.

It’s not about anything else.

There are no descriptions of WHY any of this was necessary or what God’s
main purpose or goal is.

It’s all about “If you behave you’re be rewarded with everlasting life,
and if you don’t behave you’ll suffer hell”

FEAR AND CONTROL!

That’s all it’s about. All the rest is just the details concerning
what’s considered to be a sin or not.

Remember Abra: This is your opinion.Your truth. Just as ours is our
opinion, and our truths.
Kat

Absolutely Kat, it is only my opinion, and never could I say yours is
wrong...

The heading of this topic is..."What is your take....?"

Again Lee, absolutely correct. But, I try and be sure to say things like
"this is my opinion" not make it sound absolute. Albeit, I do make a
mistake and forget now and again.

Still luv ya.

Abra, my friend, you frazzle me you know...Luv ya.


Kat

I did.........

i wish i still had a brick wall to bash my head against