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| Topic: What if Jesus said no? | |
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What if the events of Jesus had been different? What if Jesus had decided he did not want to die for mankind? Would god have found someone else? Was it even possible for Jesus to say no or was he not given a choice?
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Who really wants to die... I am sure he was scared, But he knew that there was life after death... I am not sure if he was given a choice i mean i believe we are all here to make choices in our life, to know right from wrong so i guess maybe he had a choice....
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The possibilty was thier then. They just had to accept him. It was not written in stone he had to die. Just as his return date is not written in stone.. Blessings...Miles
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So what if he had said no, would god have found someone else?
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Thier would of been no need for anyone to die. Then as the Jews were expecting a king to come he would of been thier king. Same as he is expected to come today.. Shalom..Miles
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On another point of view, the basic religion require sacrifices (ergo John XXIII statement that only the of Jesus needed to be spilled regardless of whether he died or not), such religions also affirm the idea of the scapegoat.
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He would not say no.
He could not say no. Coming to the earth to die for our sins is what He was birthed for. There is no other purpose for His being.ie deliverance, healing, guidance,forgiveness,sanctifiying us etc |
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He would not say no. He could not say no. Coming to the earth to die for our sins is what He was birthed for. There is no other purpose for His being.ie deliverance, healing, guidance,forgiveness,sanctifiying us etc But if he was human he had to be able to say no. The bible didn't say he was perfect, only without sin. The bible seems to indicate he had a choice. If he was able to say no then god must of had a back up plan. So it is possible that Jesus we are all familiar with was just the last in long line of failed messiahs. |
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What if the events of Jesus had been different? What if Jesus had decided he did not want to die for mankind? Would god have found someone else? Was it even possible for Jesus to say no or was he not given a choice? According to the gospels he actually did pray to God and voice his desire not to be part of this. He only reluctantly agree to do it if this was "His Father's" WILL! So even according to the Bible Jesus was not offering to do this freely! He clearly didn't understand the need for it either. If we can believe the scriptures. I personally feel that those parts of the Bible were entirely made-up demagoguery that never happened. Why? Because it makes no sense that Jesus wouldn't even be on the same page with the God of Abraham if he was indeed his son. Of course, we already know from the Gospels that Jesus disagreed with much of what the God of Abraham had instructed people to do. The God of Abraham had instructed people to judge each other and stone sinners to death. Jesus denounced both the judging of others, and stoning sinnners to death. Clearly, based on the gospels, Jesus was never in agreement with the God of Abraham and his plans at any point in time. The story is so conflicting and inconsistent I personally can't understand why anyone could possibly believe the authors of the New Testament. Clearly they were using the rumors of Jesus to support the very dogma that Jesus himself denounced. This is why they are riddled with such blatant contradictions and inconsistencies. Jesus was nailed to the cross by the Jews for blaspheme (which Jesus most certainly was guilty of). But then Jesus was crucified metaphorically again decades later by the authors of the New Testament when they used him as a dead marionette doll to stuff words into his mouth thus nailing him to the Old Testament and the God of Abraham. They used Jesus as a patsy to prop up their failing religion. The very dogma that Jesus himself had denounced. It's crazy. The poor guy was so used and abused it's pathetic. He'd roll over in his grave if he had a clue of how his name is being used to support bigotry and the judging of others today! The very things that he obviously had taught against. Even the scriptures are clear about that much! |
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So it is possible that Jesus we are all familiar with was just the last in long line of failed messiahs. It's also possible that the whole story is a made up lie and our creator was never a jealous egotistical sadist who lusts for blood sacricices in the first place. I'm more willing to believe that.  Why cling to the idea that God is so dastardly?  I see no reason to even believe that in the first place. People must have a pretty low opinion of God to accept that God would be so heartless to begin with. |
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So it is possible that Jesus we are all familiar with was just the last in long line of failed messiahs. It's also possible that the whole story is a made up lie and our creator was never a jealous egotistical sadist who lusts for blood sacricices in the first place. I'm more willing to believe that. Why cling to the idea that God is so dastardly? I see no reason to even believe that in the first place. People must have a pretty low opinion of God to accept that God would be so heartless to begin with. I see no reason to believe in god at all. To accept such a deity you must accept all the terrible things that that deity has done to this world. If this deity is the creator, it created evil, pain and suffering also. Anything less is saying the deity is not a creator. So what would that leave, a power hungry egotistical azzhole? |
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I see no reason to believe in god at all. To accept such a deity you must accept all the terrible things that that deity has done to this world. If this deity is the creator, it created evil, pain and suffering also. Anything less is saying the deity is not a creator. So what would that leave, a power hungry egotistical azzhole? I understand your reasoning. But there are explanations that can indeed jusify the apparent nastiness of the world. I agree that a power hungry esotistical godhead who lusts to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is no justification. A God who hates heathens would be a demon. That's a nightmare of a religion. But there are other philosophical possiblities. Especially concerning spiritualities that don't requira the segregration of a single ruling egotistical jealous godhead. You've got to get that nightmare out of your mind altogether first. Then consider the possibility of spiritual beings that might enjoy that thrill of phsyical existence. RISK! After all, can you really have THRILL witout RISK? Risk makes things thilling, and filled with suspense. How long do you think soap operas would run if all they ever showed was grandma baking birthday cakes for the the nice well-behaved little kids? How big do you think the movie industry would have gotten if all it every showed was Joe Blow mowing his lawn? People WANT SUSPENSE! They demand a THRILL! They want EXCITEMENT! Well, consider that spirits live in a world where nothing can possibly go wrong? Everything you can imagine can happen, and you're in FULL control of it and you KNOW it. That might sound tempting for a human. But consider being in this state of for eternity. You're bound to get BORED. There is no such thing as "getting old". Spirits don't have physical bodies. There's nothing to wear out. So they invent a HOLODECK! You can come and PLAY! It's like a THEATER! Only you actually PARTICIPATE LIVE! Well, are you going to want to go a movie that is precisely like the existence you already have? Of course NOT! You want something DIFFERENT! Give me a THRILL! Give me EXCITEMENT! Trick me into beliving that I have NO CONTROL OVER ANYTHING! Maybe do MORE than just trick me! Mayeb I'll even volunteer to GIVE UP some control just to PLAY the game! Ok, so what are the rules. Well, first off, you're going to have to endure EMOTIONAL PAIN! "What's that?", you ask as a spirit. You are told, "Emotional Pain is when you THINK you are being hurt because of what you see happening around you, but in TRUTH it's all just an illusion and there is no REAL PAIN at all" You laugh!  "I'm all for it! Make pretend pain! I LOVE IT!" Ok, there's a catch! You'll also have to endure PHYSICAL pain! "Hmmm? Physical pain? What's that?", you ask as a spirit. You are connected to the theater stage, you see an imagine of a human man in front of you and he PUNCHES you in the face! "OUCH! You scream! Damn! What was that?", you ask as a spirit. The theater manager says, "That was physical pain. Can you handle it?". "Gee, I don't know? That was really WILD! I never felt anything like that before!", it's quite intersting, but I'm not sure if I'm going to like this. Then you are connected to the theater stage again, and a beautiful woman appears before you and gives you the most sensuous kiss an ecstasy shudders through your entire body" "Whoa! You say! That was really WILD! I wanna to that AGAIN!" Well, that's that other aspect of pain, or physical sensation. You need to accept all forms of phsycial sensations if you want to play this game. Then it's explained to you that you will never be exposed to more physical pain that you can handle. In fact, there are safeguards build-in to assure that if you get too much pain you're go into shock, or a state of numbness, or even die (which means that the show is over and you get to exit the theater altogether). Would you play the game? From inside the game it appears to be totally UNFAIR. But outside the game there's a long line of spirits just waiting to get in to play a ROLE! No one every truly DIES. That's just an illusion from inside the game. Hey, I'm not saying this is the way things are. I'm just suggesting a possible scenario that would EXPLAIN the apparent cruelties and atrocities that APPEAR to exist from INSIDE the game. No egotistical azzhole Godhead's required. It's just food for thought.  |
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Edited by
Milesoftheusa
on
Wed 05/06/09 06:02 PM
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He would not say no. He could not say no. Coming to the earth to die for our sins is what He was birthed for. There is no other purpose for His being.ie deliverance, healing, guidance,forgiveness,sanctifiying us etc But if he was human he had to be able to say no. The bible didn't say he was perfect, only without sin. The bible seems to indicate he had a choice. If he was able to say no then god must of had a back up plan. So it is possible that Jesus we are all familiar with was just the last in long line of failed messiahs. yes.. he was prophesied to come and do as he did and be rejected. As you mention the 2 goats sacrificed each year on the day of atonement (Yom Kipper) which is considered the Holiest day of the year. One goat all the sins of the people were laid on his head and the other one The High priest offered as a sacrifice to Yahweh. This is the day of fasting which is Prophecy for to day in and out. You can find where the Prophets spoke of this day over and over. Yet those who say the OT is done away and no need for those old laws have no idea when they read about Prophecy it is speaking about this Goat sacrifice as you well mentioned. Lev 16:6-10 6 "Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before Yahweh at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for Yahweh and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which Yahweh’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before Yahweh, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness. NKJV Now if you will notice the Sin offering goat was not to be presented before Yahweh with the people around. In other words if the Sin offering goat was probably not to be TOUCHED by the people the offering would be unclean as the people outside on this day mourned as they waited to see if their forgiveness of sins was accepted. Ad we read here and I will Post what Yahshua said before he presented himself before Yahweh. Lev 16:15-19 15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be (no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel). 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before Yahweh, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat , and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. NKJV John 20:13-18 She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Master, and I do not know where they have laid Him." 14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Yahshua standing there, and did not know that it was Yahshua. 15 Y&ahshua said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, "Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Yahshua said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him, "Rabboni!" (which is to say, Teacher). 17 Yahshua said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them,'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.'" 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Master, and that He had spoken these things to her. NKJV I hope this can be seen that the Day of Atonement Goat sacrifice was a preylude to Yahshua rising to present the sins of the world before the father. We can also see this even more clearly this sacrifice from the writer of Hebrews. Heb 9:15 But Messiah came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to Elohim, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living Elohim? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. NKJV This speaks of the same sacrifices being offered before the MOST HOLY PLACE. How much Holier of a place can you get than before THE THRONE? 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before Yahweh, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat , and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. NKJV Lev 16... There is so much to this in Prophecy. Even doing it 7 times with the blood is prophecy. What about the SCAPE GOAT? Lev 16:20-22 20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat . 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat , confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat , and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. NKJV A man is to take the scapegoat and take it into the wilderness and release it with the sins of the people. Who is this portraying? Look at what else they did to this scapegoat? Deut 33:16-17 16 With the precious things of the earth and its fullness, And the favor of Him who dwelt in the bush. Let the blessing come'on the head of Joseph, And on the crown of the head of him who was separate from his brothers.' 17 His glory is like a firstborn bull, And his horns like the horns of the wild ox; Together with them He shall push the peoples To the ends of the earth; They are the ten thousands of Ephraim, And they are the thousands of Manasseh." NKJV Could Judas of been portrayed as the Scapegoat that Aaron laid the sins of his brothers on? If he is.. Judas was not a mere traiter.. He was a chosen Sacrifice also. Much different picture of him. Remember Yahshua knew satan was entering Judas and told him to go and do it quickly. Judas was very trusted as the rest thought when he was sent away as the Goat was.. That he was going to buy what they needed for the Passover. A trusted position.. When Satan wanted to influence Peter who is/means the Rock. Yahshua made Satan leave. Who was the Greatest Disciple? The ones who lived to see what was to come. Or the one who died because of what he had done? Notice what Peter and Yahshua are talking about. Luke 22:24-34 24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Yahshua said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles master it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." 33 But he replied, "Master, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death." 34 Yahshua answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me." NIV Who is Greater? Peter says he will go to Death before anything happens to Yahshua. Did he? No.. Yahshua knew the rest could not stand up to Satan after he had been taken. Yahshua prayed that none of them be taken. But Judas was let go. Was his betrayal when Satan had entered him worse than Peter’s? I do not think so. I believe he will greatly be forgiven. Yahshua when asked did not say Judas had lost Eternal life. How could prophecied of played out if not for Judas? Satan was bound by Yahshua not to enter the rest of the Disciples and allowed to enter Judas. Where ever satan was allowed to go after one of Yahshua’s they were very strong in their faith. Read this from Job carefully and see if you can see the actions of the last Supper and Yahshua’s death betrayal in it. Job 1:6-12 Now there was a day when the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came among them. 7 And Yahweh said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered Yahweh and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." 8 Then Yahweh said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears Elohim and shuns evil?" 9 So Satan answered Yahweh and said, "Does Job fear Elohim for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" 12 And Yahweh said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of Yahweh. NKJV Blessings of Shalom…Miles |
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He would not say no. He could not say no. Coming to the earth to die for our sins is what He was birthed for. There is no other purpose for His being.ie deliverance, healing, guidance,forgiveness,sanctifiying us etc But if he was human he had to be able to say no. The bible didn't say he was perfect, only without sin. The bible seems to indicate he had a choice. If he was able to say no then god must of had a back up plan. So it is possible that Jesus we are all familiar with was just the last in long line of failed messiahs. yes.. he was prophesied to come and do as he did and be rejected. As you mention the 2 goats sacrificed each year on the day of atonement (Yom Kipper) which is considered the Holiest day of the year. One goat all the sins of the people were laid on his head and the other one The High priest offered as a sacrifice to Yahweh. This is the day of fasting which is Prophecy for to day in and out. You can find where the Prophets spoke of this day over and over. Yet those who say the OT is done away and no need for those old laws have no idea when they read about Prophecy it is speaking about this Goat sacrifice as you well mentioned. Lev 16:6-10 6 "Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before Yahweh at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for Yahweh and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which Yahweh’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before Yahweh, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness. NKJV Now if you will notice the Sin offering goat was not to be presented before Yahweh with the people around. In other words if the Sin offering goat was probably not to be TOUCHED by the people the offering would be unclean as the people outside on this day mourned as they waited to see if their forgiveness of sins was accepted. Ad we read here and I will Post what Yahshua said before he presented himself before Yahweh. Lev 16:15-19 15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be (no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel). 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before Yahweh, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat , and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. NKJV John 20:13-18 She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Master, and I do not know where they have laid Him." 14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Yahshua standing there, and did not know that it was Yahshua. 15 Y&ahshua said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, "Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Yahshua said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him, "Rabboni!" (which is to say, Teacher). 17 Yahshua said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them,'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.'" 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Master, and that He had spoken these things to her. NKJV I hope this can be seen that the Day of Atonement Goat sacrifice was a preylude to Yahshua rising to present the sins of the world before the father. We can also see this even more clearly this sacrifice from the writer of Hebrews. Heb 9:15 But Messiah came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to Elohim, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living Elohim? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. NKJV This speaks of the same sacrifices being offered before the MOST HOLY PLACE. How much Holier of a place can you get than before THE THRONE? 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before Yahweh, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat , and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. NKJV Lev 16... There is so much to this in Prophecy. Even doing it 7 times with the blood is prophecy. What about the SCAPE GOAT? Lev 16:20-22 20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat . 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat , confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat , and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. NKJV A man is to take the scapegoat and take it into the wilderness and release it with the sins of the people. Who is this portraying? Look at what else they did to this scapegoat? Deut 33:16-17 16 With the precious things of the earth and its fullness, And the favor of Him who dwelt in the bush. Let the blessing come'on the head of Joseph, And on the crown of the head of him who was separate from his brothers.' 17 His glory is like a firstborn bull, And his horns like the horns of the wild ox; Together with them He shall push the peoples To the ends of the earth; They are the ten thousands of Ephraim, And they are the thousands of Manasseh." NKJV Could Judas of been portrayed as the Scapegoat that Aaron laid the sins of his brothers on? If he is.. Judas was not a mere traiter.. He was a chosen Sacrifice also. Much different picture of him. Remember Yahshua knew satan was entering Judas and told him to go and do it quickly. Judas was very trusted as the rest thought when he was sent away as the Goat was.. That he was going to buy what they needed for the Passover. A trusted position.. When Satan wanted to influence Peter who is/means the Rock. Yahshua made Satan leave. Who was the Greatest Disciple? The ones who lived to see what was to come. Or the one who died because of what he had done? Notice what Peter and Yahshua are talking about. Luke 22:24-34 24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Yahshua said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles master it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." 33 But he replied, "Master, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death." 34 Yahshua answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me." NIV Who is Greater? Peter says he will go to Death before anything happens to Yahshua. Did he? No.. Yahshua knew the rest could not stand up to Satan after he had been taken. Yahshua prayed that none of them be taken. But Judas was let go. Was his betrayal when Satan had entered him worse than Peter’s? I do not think so. I believe he will greatly be forgiven. Yahshua when asked did not say Judas had lost Eternal life. How could prophecied of played out if not for Judas? Satan was bound by Yahshua not to enter the rest of the Disciples and allowed to enter Judas. Where ever satan was allowed to go after one of Yahshua’s they were very strong in their faith. Read this from Job carefully and see if you can see the actions of the last Supper and Yahshua’s death betrayal in it. Job 1:6-12 Now there was a day when the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came among them. 7 And Yahweh said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered Yahweh and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." 8 Then Yahweh said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears Elohim and shuns evil?" 9 So Satan answered Yahweh and said, "Does Job fear Elohim for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" 12 And Yahweh said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of Yahweh. NKJV Blessings of Shalom…Miles Well said 
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He would not say no. He could not say no. Coming to the earth to die for our sins is what He was birthed for. There is no other purpose for His being.ie deliverance, healing, guidance,forgiveness,sanctifiying us etc But if he was human he had to be able to say no. The bible didn't say he was perfect, only without sin. The bible seems to indicate he had a choice. If he was able to say no then god must of had a back up plan. So it is possible that Jesus we are all familiar with was just the last in long line of failed messiahs. yes.. he was prophesied to come and do as he did and be rejected. As you mention the 2 goats sacrificed each year on the day of atonement (Yom Kipper) which is considered the Holiest day of the year. One goat all the sins of the people were laid on his head and the other one The High priest offered as a sacrifice to Yahweh. This is the day of fasting which is Prophecy for to day in and out. You can find where the Prophets spoke of this day over and over. Yet those who say the OT is done away and no need for those old laws have no idea when they read about Prophecy it is speaking about this Goat sacrifice as you well mentioned. Lev 16:6-10 6 "Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before Yahweh at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for Yahweh and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which Yahweh’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before Yahweh, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness. NKJV Now if you will notice the Sin offering goat was not to be presented before Yahweh with the people around. In other words if the Sin offering goat was probably not to be TOUCHED by the people the offering would be unclean as the people outside on this day mourned as they waited to see if their forgiveness of sins was accepted. Ad we read here and I will Post what Yahshua said before he presented himself before Yahweh. Lev 16:15-19 15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be (no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel). 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before Yahweh, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat , and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. NKJV John 20:13-18 She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Master, and I do not know where they have laid Him." 14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Yahshua standing there, and did not know that it was Yahshua. 15 Y&ahshua said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, "Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Yahshua said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him, "Rabboni!" (which is to say, Teacher). 17 Yahshua said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them,'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.'" 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Master, and that He had spoken these things to her. NKJV I hope this can be seen that the Day of Atonement Goat sacrifice was a preylude to Yahshua rising to present the sins of the world before the father. We can also see this even more clearly this sacrifice from the writer of Hebrews. Heb 9:15 But Messiah came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to Elohim, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living Elohim? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. NKJV This speaks of the same sacrifices being offered before the MOST HOLY PLACE. How much Holier of a place can you get than before THE THRONE? 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before Yahweh, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat , and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. NKJV Lev 16... There is so much to this in Prophecy. Even doing it 7 times with the blood is prophecy. What about the SCAPE GOAT? Lev 16:20-22 20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat . 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat , confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat , and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. NKJV A man is to take the scapegoat and take it into the wilderness and release it with the sins of the people. Who is this portraying? Look at what else they did to this scapegoat? Deut 33:16-17 16 With the precious things of the earth and its fullness, And the favor of Him who dwelt in the bush. Let the blessing come'on the head of Joseph, And on the crown of the head of him who was separate from his brothers.' 17 His glory is like a firstborn bull, And his horns like the horns of the wild ox; Together with them He shall push the peoples To the ends of the earth; They are the ten thousands of Ephraim, And they are the thousands of Manasseh." NKJV Could Judas of been portrayed as the Scapegoat that Aaron laid the sins of his brothers on? If he is.. Judas was not a mere traiter.. He was a chosen Sacrifice also. Much different picture of him. Remember Yahshua knew satan was entering Judas and told him to go and do it quickly. Judas was very trusted as the rest thought when he was sent away as the Goat was.. That he was going to buy what they needed for the Passover. A trusted position.. When Satan wanted to influence Peter who is/means the Rock. Yahshua made Satan leave. Who was the Greatest Disciple? The ones who lived to see what was to come. Or the one who died because of what he had done? Notice what Peter and Yahshua are talking about. Luke 22:24-34 24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Yahshua said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles master it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." 33 But he replied, "Master, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death." 34 Yahshua answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me." NIV Who is Greater? Peter says he will go to Death before anything happens to Yahshua. Did he? No.. Yahshua knew the rest could not stand up to Satan after he had been taken. Yahshua prayed that none of them be taken. But Judas was let go. Was his betrayal when Satan had entered him worse than Peter’s? I do not think so. I believe he will greatly be forgiven. Yahshua when asked did not say Judas had lost Eternal life. How could prophecied of played out if not for Judas? Satan was bound by Yahshua not to enter the rest of the Disciples and allowed to enter Judas. Where ever satan was allowed to go after one of Yahshua’s they were very strong in their faith. Read this from Job carefully and see if you can see the actions of the last Supper and Yahshua’s death betrayal in it. Job 1:6-12 Now there was a day when the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came among them. 7 And Yahweh said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered Yahweh and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." 8 Then Yahweh said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears Elohim and shuns evil?" 9 So Satan answered Yahweh and said, "Does Job fear Elohim for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" 12 And Yahweh said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of Yahweh. NKJV Blessings of Shalom…Miles Well said 
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OK what's the deal with you Abra? Do you believe the scriptures are the infallible word of the Most High God or dont you? I ask because i see you often use scripture to prove some valid points, but then again you talk against the Creator. Can you clarify your belief? Which is it Do you believe?
 or dont you?
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yes.. he was prophesied to come and do as he did and be rejected. But no matter how you cut it, it's a story of a God who hates heathens, where a heathen is anyone who simply doesn't believe that the authors of the Old Testament spoke for God. The God of Abraham clearly instructed the Jews to murder heathens. A heathen being anyone who disagrees with the "word of God" in the Old Testament, and or, asks people to worship any other God BEFORE the God of Abraham. Well, by these commandments of the God of Abraham then Jesus was a heathen on both counts. Jesus both, denounced many of the teachings of the Old Testament, and he demanded that we can only get to the God of Abraham THROUGH HIM! That's placing himselve BEFORE the God of Abraham! Jesus was a heathen on several counts. So if the Jews murdered him they were only obeying God's commandments and instructions! I don't see how anyone can think very highly of a God who tells people to murder heathens, and then sends his son into that same crowd to become a heathen (by the very definitions that had been laid out!). This would be a God that sends horribly mixed messages. So mixed in fact, that the religion itself fell into four major parts, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestanism. All of whome are in vast disagreement with each other one what God wants from us! Are we supposed to believe that God would have been stupid enough not to have realized that he was sending profoundly MIXED MESSAGES? Which of thse people should we believe? The Jews? The Muslims? The Catholics? Or one of the myriad of the crazy protesting Protestants? This whole religion is about a God that sends GROSSLY MIXED MESSAGES! Why should anyone believe that God is that lame? I thought God was supposed to be ALL-WISE? But to believe in any one of these mixed opposing religions we MUST BELIEVE that God is totally insane and has NO CLUE how to even communicate with the objects of his very own creation? That's a pretty UNWISE God don't you think? |
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OK what's the deal with you Abra? Do you believe the scriptures are the infallible word of the Most High God or dont you? I ask because i see you often use scripture to prove some valid points, but then again you talk against the Creator. Can you clarify your belief? Which is it Do you believe? or dont you? Oh absolutely not! I believe that the Bible is entirely made-up by men. The God of Abraham isn't all that different from Zeus actually. God's that are appeased by blood sacrifices are very common in Mediterranean mythologies, as well as many other mythologies around the world. When I post "scripture" I'm just demonstrating how absurd the authors of the Bible were. Do I believe that our creator could be that absurd? No, of course not. In order for the Bible to be true, God would need to be horrible. I do believe that a man named Jesus probably lived, denounced the scriptures just like the Gospels suggest, and was cruficed for blaspheme by the Jew, just like the authors of the ficticious God of Abraham had instructed them to do to heathens. When I speak as though these things were truly done by "God" I only do so to show how absurd that God would have needed to be. Just replace the word "God" with the word "Zeus" and pretend that I'm talking about mythology. Then maybe you'll better understand where I'm coming from. I don't believe in a God what lusts for, or is appeased by, blood sacrifices. I don't believe in a God that needs to have his "only begotten son" nailed to a pole before he can forgive mankind for their 'sins'. In fact, the very idea that mankind was responsible for bringing sin into the world in the first place doesn't even hold water. We already know that disease, death, natural disasters, and animals eating other animals already existed LONG BEFORE mankind even showed up on planet Earth. The idea that mankind brought "sin" into the world is simply not true. It's a lie. What can I say. We have evidence! The authors who wrote this religious mythology have been CAUGHT with their hand in the cookie jar! They made it all up and they NEVER spoke for God ever! So, no, the Bible is NOT the word of ANY God. |
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Thanks for being candid Abra. Now I understand your position.
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Wed 05/06/09 08:30 PM
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Thanks for being candid Abra. Now I understand your position. Allow me to give you a bit more information just so you have a better idea where I'm coming from. I was born and raised in a Christian family. And extended Christian family (all my aunts, uncles, and cousins, were also Christians). Well most of them anyway. I did have two uncles who were atheists. I might add that they were highly recognized by the entire family as being the brightest of the bunch. Moreover, two of my uncles were full-time preaches. All were very close to the chruch and very religious. Although not in a fundamentalist way. We were Free Methodists, not evangalistic, and quite mild. The Free Methodists pushed the LOVE of Jesus and really downplayed the Old Testament. So there was no fire or brimstone preaching or anything nasty like that. I didn't have a problem being in a religious family and I had no problem at all with religion. On the contrary I was very interested in 'serving' Jesus and becoming a preacher of the gospels myself. After all, I believed that this way TRUE! However, I confess that I was also quite naive at the time, and I had very limited exposure to other religions and philosophies. I was also very much interested in science and mathematics, but I saw absolutely no conflict between science and religion. Again, the Free Methodists weren't hardcore. They could accept evolution as simply the way that God created Adam and Eve. They could also accept that the 6-days was just an abstraction and could easily have been 6 million years, or 6 billion years or whatever. They weren't concerned about technicalities. And I wasn't either. However, there were other religious questions that came up. In fact, many of the questions that came up were precisely because I was intersted in TEACHING the Gospels (and of course the WHOLE biblical STORY). After all, I would need to KNOW the answers if I'm going to teach these things to other people right? Well, as time when on, I found more and more questions being unanswerable. The preachers could not only not answer them, but it soon became apparent that even the PREACHERS often disagreed on what the answers should even BE! This truly bothered me! What's going on here? I thought the Bible was the infallible word of God? Why are preachers not agreeing on things? Clearly there should be a CONCRETE answer, we shouldn't need to GUESS at what God wants. Keep in mind that these were FREE METHODIST preacher. Not only were they all Protestants, but they were even all of the same demonination and they couldn't agree on everything. Well, again, I was extremely naive at the time, but I soon began to realize that there are MANY DENOMINATIONS many of which have radically differnet views on what they think God wants from us. And that's just within Protestantism. Then we have Catholicism, and Judaism, and Islam (which is truly an offshoot of this very same religion!). The question of what to teach became EXTREMELY COMPLEX. Also, I had always been taught that the bible contains all the answers! Well, that's a lie. It most certainly does not. It raises far more questions than it answers. For example, why does a loving God need to be pascified by blood sacrifices for in the first place? I can't find a decent answer to that question in the Bible. Why would it be necessary for God to have his son nailed to a pole to pay for the sins of man? Who is being paid? Well, there are only THREE possiblities! The sacrifice must be appeasing either God, or Satan, or Man. It would make absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever for God to sacrifice his son TO man to pay for man's sins. So that leaves just God or Satan. Either God is sacrificing his son to Satan which means that God sees Satan as a REAL THREAT and is DESPERATE to do something to save man kind from falling into the hands of Satan. Or, God is sacrificing his son unto HIMSELF to appease himself. Again, this is lunacy. Finally, an argument could be made that sins need to be paid for via some form of pain and suffering. But again, this is lame, IMHO. Since when does two wrongs make a right? This is troubling for me because if I'm going to teach this I need a story that I can believe! Well, the more I thought about this, and studied the Bible the worse things got. I soon began to realize that God solves ALL HIS PROBLEMS via violence and brutality! Where's the wisdom and compassion in that? The Book of Job has God taking Satan up on a BET that Satan can turn Job (an already LOYAL SERVANT of God against God!). What?  Why doesn't God just tell Satan to go fly a kite? What does God have to PROVE to Satan? Moreover, if Satan is some evil demon why is he ASKING for God's PERMISSION to screw over Job? I though Satan was supposed to just do his evil work without God's premission? This makes Satan appear to be God's hit man. He never does a thing without obtaining God's permission FIRST?  Also God says, "Go head and do what you want, just don't kill Job". So Satan kills all of Job's children and his wife. What? God's ok with Satan murdering all those other people just to test Job's faithfulness to God? What about those people? Weren't THEY important in their own right? The whole book of Job is like reading a Freddy's Nightmare. Well, I could go on an on and on, because TRUST me, I looked for ANY REASON to try to make this religion WORK! I just have to mention at least one more thing. God leads the Israelites to the "Promised Land". But the promised land is occupied by heathens which God then commands the Isrealites to murder with NO MERCY. This is way too much. First of, what kind of a God can't even produce a piece of unoccupied real estate as a "Promised Land"? Secondly, if there were heathens living on that land, why didn't god send a hurricane, or a plauge, or just give them all heart attacts BEFORE his people got there? Why would God have his favored people need to MURDER a whole civilization when they get to the Promised Land? Especially considering that God supposedly doesn't want to train them to be murderers? The whole thing just got to be totally unbearable. I had a BILLION excuses that I would need to come up for God's totally UNHOLY behavior, and there were NO JUSTIFICATIONS for them coming from the Bible. The book that is supposed to be the infallible word of God and contain ALL THE ANSWERS? To teach this religion would be nothing more than learning the ART of making EXCUSES for God! I truly had to finally give it up and realize that even I could not believe this nonsense. And like I say, I could give you a myriad more reaons why the book is absurd. Finally, I need to share this last thought with you. What truly saved me from this ungodly religion was the simply ability to accept that it MIGHT NOT BE the word of God. It might actually be the works of MEN. Just go through the Bible and ask. "Would God do this?" "Would men write this?" I kept finding msyelf saying NO to the first question and YES to the second. If the book is supposed to be the word of God it makes absolutely NO SENSE at all. If it's the writings of men to excuse their bad behavior by claiming that God was telling them to do these things, then YES, it makes PERFECT SENSE. It must be the work of men, and not God. End of story. Edited to add: As I became older I started realizing even more reasons why the book could never have been true. One of them I already told you. The book claims that we're responsible for bringing 'sin' (evil and imperfection) into the world. But clearly there's no way that could be true. Today I'm throroughly convinced that the Bible has no more crediblity than Zeus. I have a whole explaination of who Jesus was too. And why the New Testament was written the way it was. I've got the whole thing EXPOSED for what it truly is. Poor Jesus was a victim of the times. He tried to do the right thing and lost his life in the effort. But he was not sent by the God of Abraham as a 'sacrificial lamb'. There's no way that could be true. Jesus didn't even agree with the teachings of the Old Testament. That's why people LOVE him so MUCH! He denounced the nasty ways of the old God of Abraham! |
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