Thought occures even in a sensor deprivation chamber.

Thought continues to occure even if the body has died... and the brain no longer functions. Just ask anyone who has had a so called Near Death Experience(NDE). (I do not buy that label it is more like a Death Experience with a reawakening).

Perception is a sub function of thought... Sensors are simply information gathering devices and not 'thinking' devices.

I personally experience plenty of input that does not arise from sense perception. The perception of the senses is only a mere fraction of our capabilities.

Moreover, if you claim that awareness emerges from sense perception then it would follow that computers could easily become aware, because they already have the ability to percieve sensory input.

In fact, my computer just told me so as connected to the Internet just now. An electrical storm had just passed over, so I had shut the computer down and unplugged the modem phone line. When I turned the computer back on after the storm had passed I tried to connect to the Internet.

My computer told me, "There is no dial-tone".

So there you go. My computers percieved that there was no dial tone on it's modem line. My computer clearly has the ability to percieve. Therefore, by your assertion above, my computer should then have the ability to become aware, because you hold that awareness arises from preception.



What I find truly humorous is someone who has chosen the screen name "CreativeSoul" yet shuns creative imagination.

I guess it takes all kinds to make up this world.

Exactly.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that sensory perception should automatically give rise to awareness.

However, there are theories that very complex systems can potentially give rise to "conscious awareness". In fact, those theories which are based on "Chaos Science" or what has more recently becoming known as "The Science of Complexity", offer plausible explanations for how consciouness awareness can arise from complexity alone when it reaches a certain level.

As strange as it may sound even something that appears to be as simple as a ball of gas could pontentially have conscious awareness.

Of course when I speak of a ball of gas, I'm actually referring to a star. There is much going on inside a star, which at first appears to us to be total "chao", but according to "The Science of Complexity" a star is actualy quite complex in very well-defined ways.

It is very possible that stars have a form of conscious awareness. Clearly it's not going to be the same kind that humans experience via a human brain. But just the same, if these theories are correct, something as complex as a star may very well have a form of concious awareness in its own right. They are certainly dynamic enough.

A computer will go for the obvious answer while a human brain will go for what he thinks (doesn't work always) makes sense to the situation he is faced with.

If you ask a computer what would be the solution to world hunger, he would probably answer delete half of the human race, that's the obvious answer.

A human will look at the people and have empathy for everyone and try to find a way around for the cure to world hunger.

Until computers have awareness a conscious and think in other ways then the obvious one they will be machines.

That's an interesting observation.

I think the computer has the problem recognized.

Humans would do well to learn how not be like rabbits.

I'm not suggesting that we should murder the masses, but we most certainly would do well to get our reproductive habits under control for future generations.

I'm just look at us!

We recognize that we're running out of fossil fuels, and that we're killing all the other species on the planet, and cutting down the rainforests at an alarming rate, and causing polution and global warming.

But what are we doing about it?

We're talking about doing very feeble little things that aren't truly going to make a large enough impact fast enough.

Is anyone talking about serious family planning on a planetary scale?

Nope!

If we're truly concerned about future generations we should quite literally quit fcking around!

Future generations wouldn't have such a huge problem if they weren't over populated too. But we keep churning out new babies at an alarming rate anyway! Just like fungus growing on an orange.

Over-population is our true problem. Not the dwindling-rescourses of the planet.

Reduce the population to a reaonable level and the planet could easily handle it.

Over-population IS the greatest problem facing mankind and it's not even truly being addressed at all. Although I think China did address this at one time, but still, don't they represent the largest population of any single nation even today?

I never had any kids, so I did my part.

Who controls the remote? That is the origin of intention and thought.

This statement is flawed.

"Perception" is not "input."

Perception is awareness.

Awareness cannot "emerge" from sense perception because you cannot be "aware" of any kind of signal if you cannot perceive that signal in the first place.

Awareness must be there first... before input.

Your assertions are illogical. What are your grounds for these assertions?

The origin of the radio signal is a human. Radios would not work if there were no humans operating them.

A car key has never started a car on its own without a human.

Calculators don't think they run programs.

The dish does not receive the signals. Ultimately a human does.

Morse code is a signal composed, sent and received by a human.

I am talking about the true origin of a signal, and the intended receiver of that signal... not just the machinery involved in the path it takes.

I'm not so sure that is true.

I think that is propaganda that is used to justify wars and genocide and the spreading of disease purposely. Genocide is still a common practice. Evil scientists are still working hard trying to create a virus that will wipe out most of the human race. Why do you suppose that is?

I would tell you about the non-human alien life forms living among us, but you, like so many others, would just laugh your butt off at that idea.

This is their greatest protection. The belief that they don't exist.

Humans... go forth and multiply!!

What would be the difference?

If they are all they are cracked up to be it wouldn't do us any good to know that they exist anyway.

Besides, I confess that I would indeed laugh by butt off. The reason simply being that these stories have the Draconians actually breeding with humans and people running around who are half-human and half-Draconian and supposedly don't even know. Even their doctors can't tell when they go in for their medical check ups or end up in a hospital emergency room due to an accident.

Moreover, Draonians are supposed be reptilian cold-blooded animals that don't generate their own body heat. Humans are warm-blooded mammals.

What would a half-breed of that be? A semi-tepid-blooded animal?

So yes, I think the story got way bent out of proportion. A story of aliens potentially monitoring us? Maybe.

But cold-blooded reptilian aliens actually breeding with humans and producing offspring that can't be told apart from a human even by a doctor?

I don't think so.

Just my opinion of course. But seriously, this would fly in the face of everything we understand about biology and DNA.

By they way, on a more positive note,...

I just ordered a brand new Course. This one is on the cutting edge of genetics, DNA and where we are at in our unraveling of the human genome. It promises to be a truly interesting course!

Just reading the description of I've learned some fascinating stuff!

We are only just now cracking the code of the human genome and the pace if phenomonal. Scientists are finding out more information than they ever dreamed possible.

The human genome will replace the old-fashioned 'fossil records'. We will now be able to see precisely how everything evolved in minute detail, including the human eye. It's all there in are DNA, everything has been recorded and kept in the DNA encyclopedia. It's just a matter of reading it all out now. Of course, it's a huge book and will take many years if not decades, but as computers and various genome processes advance we could potentially have it all read in relatively short order. All question about evolution will have been answered.

It's amazing when you stop and think about this. Nature has been preserving these entire record for millions of years! And now all we need to do is read the book! No more fossil hunting or guession about 'missing links'. We already know that we are directly related to chimpanzees. That's a given.

But Draconians? Maybe not.

Only time will tell.

... and we did.

and we have the technolgy to go further... but we can't do that if we kill ourselves.

We need the base of people cause some won't survive that striving...

Well obviously they are not all they are "cracked up to be" as you might think. They do have their weaknesses. (Everyone does) But if you don't know they exist or don't believe they exist, and if you don't know how they operate and what their plans are, or what their weaknesses are, then, yes it won't do you any good to know they exist…. because you are clueless about them.



About being ‘cold blooded”: I don't know if that is a fact or not. Scientists are not even certain if dinosaurs were all "cold blooded animals."

The way I understand it, the descendants with dragon blood can be recognized by their rare blood types. That does not mean they are not human, they are still human! They just carry a certain gene that allows them to be easily possessed by the other dimensional beings. As the dragon blood gets stronger by inner breeding, the ability to shape shift from human to reptilian develops. The dragon blood is what we know as “royal blood.” This would be the queen of England and other royals. I had a friend who was of royal blood and both her and her brother were born with tails that had to be removed at birth. She confided this to me. She of course did not know the significance of that. I didn’t either at the time. She was as human as me, but her marriage was “arranged.” She was told she could not have children with anyone unless they had this certain type of blood and she was introduced to him and they were married. She was a classmate of mine. I kid you not about this. Her and her entire family were deeply involved in secret societies and the Masons.

These descendants are human, they are not aliens. The aliens are other dimensional. They can cross over and they can sometimes control and possess those with the dragon blood. The descendants if inner bred for many generations can eventually shape shift into reptilian according to David Icke. I don't know exactly how that would work or if that is the way it works or even if it is true.

I do believe it is very possible that they are here though.

If they (the aliens) have been here longer than the advent of mankind, I am fairly certain they are well practiced in staying hidden and in covering their tracks.

Look at our own government that covers its crimes against humanity with "above top secret" operations that the President is not even allowed to know about. Area 51 has turned into a toxic waste dump that is untouchable by anyone!!! U.S. Citizens who have worked there have died because of it, and they can't do jack-*** about it because of its top secret hands-off status. THIS IS OUR COUNTRY THEY ARE DESTROYING AND POLLUTING IT and WE CAN'T DO A THING ABOUT IT.



I don't think so. If they ever do get all the information sorted out and then if they start looking at different populations and races etc. I think they will find some very interesting and unexpected things. I think there are several different lines in the evolutionary path that lead to different kinds of humans perhaps having different roots altogether.

But I don't think that knowledge will be had in time, and I think it will be mixed with so much misinformation that the truth will be lost in the confusion. You will not know who to believe.

As far as aliens are concerned, when dealing with other dimensional beings who have learned how to cross over into our dimension, and shape shift...the rules of genes no longer apply. You are working from a very small box of information. The laws of physics may not always apply or perhaps there are some laws we do not know about.

Ab wrote...



Yes it does, but what does that show? It clearly shows that our memories are not inhibited by one. It does nothing to support the idea that thought can emerge without sense perception.



Thought IS the perception, identification, and conscious correlation of the individual elements contained within one's sensory experience. Keep in mind that perception - as in how one frames experience - is not what I am referring to. I am referring to the physiological system commonly called senses. Sense perception.

It could be confusing to the idea of real thought to mix the two, as they are different things altogether.


To this...



Came this?



I find this statement to be unbelievable, for I cannot think of any human experience which does not arise directly from sense perception. Could you - in order to clarify to myself and anyone else who may share my confusion on how this staement can be made - name one thing that you experienced that does not have a foundation in sensory perception.



No, it does not. Sense perception is a pre-requisite that computers do not have. It is not the only one either. To equate a keyboard or a hard drive with externally attached equipment to a physiological system of senses and emotion, because they are directly connected, is nonsense.



I believe you have wrongly assumed that I meant perception as in the ability to receive an electrical signal through a wire.

Not what I meant.

Sense perception.



I find it sad that one could make so many false claims about other people and actually believe themself. I am reminded of some of the worst forms of religous zealots. All I know to tell you James is that that statement is completely false. If you believe me or not is up to you, but in order to progress in a positive direction here, it would serve all of our best interest if you would keep your openly personal remarks to yourself.

Personal remarks are not only against the forum rules, but it is a clear sign of a lack of substance in your argument.



No one said automatically, but you.



No, it is not the same. We are talking about humans, aren't we? If not, I will gladly bow out rather then to go on and on about inanimate objects having conscious thought. That idea is so implausible that I find it to be an utter waste of time and mental effort.

This thread began with this...



Automatically, I recognized several common sense knowns which clearly show this definition is false. If this is true then all that logically follows from it must be true as well. If not, then we know that the claim is false. A false conclusion cannot logically follow from a true premise(claim). So I posted this as food for further thought...



The response...



That does not matter.

If this claim, 'Thought is a signal that carries information or instructions.', is true, then the controller is sending thoughts. It is that simple, your claim is false.



No, it is not. You, as a human, are unaware of much more sensory perception than you are aware of. Because this is so self-evident, we must logically conclude that sense perception cannot and does not equate to awareness.



Read that again...Your right!!! You cannot be aware if you cannot perceive in the first place. That is what I said!

A thing must perceive first, then it may or may not have the other necessary physiological elements to know that *something* is being perceived. Of course, I am talking about a conscious awareness which results from sense perception and conscious identification of other things.



That makes no sense. Without input, what can one possibly be aware of?



The irony of the projection...



I am directly quoting your claims, and making perfectly logical false conclusions based on your claim alone. False conclusions directly follow from the claim.

Philosophy 101...

True conclusions cannot follow from false claims. False conclusions cannot follow from true claims...

Therefore, the claim must be false.

That is how philosophy is done. That is how we determine with philosophical thought whether a claim is true or false.

I think it's pretty futile to try to blame aliens for the mess we're making on our own planet.

You make it sound like humans are victims of some alien race and we can't do anything about it.

It doesn't truly matter whether aliens exist or not. We have plenty of evidence that humans are responsible for the polution on this planet.

Besides of these Draconians are supposedly so far advanced that they can come and go as they please then I'm sure they wouldn't need to be dumping their trash on our planet.

Besides, where's all the evidence for this? I think I have far more to fear from religious fundamentists or wannabe philosophers than I do from Draconians.

... I'M JUST WONDERING:
Our current civilization -- from the prehistoric to the modern times -- is at least 6,000,000 old (and God only knows how many civilizations preceded this one). Some scientists suppose our's is the 7th! -----------------------------------------------------------__________
I guess, those stupid aliens (JB mentioned) use the humanity as piggy-back for getting back home? (apparently, all of them couldn't get out of our planet during the previous 6 civilizations...)

It sure seems they aren't in a hurry -- if they can wait for Evolution to naturally bring the Humanity to the door steps of Space Exploration...

Apparently, they exist in a different time-frame -- 1000 years is just a single second for them(?) But why waite at all, if they could've influence the development in such a way that the Humanity wouldn't have to jump through all the hoops every time? Probably, they're not all powerful(?) Yet, they seem to be powerful enough to infiltrate the UN -- and possess all of the world leaders...

And yet -- what is most incomrehensible -- HOW COULD THEY ALLOW SOME OF THE HUMANS BECOME AWARE OF THEIR PRESENCE? ? ? Such a mistake would raise unnecessary inquires...* * *

Besides, if those aliens want to piggy-back on the Humanities advances, they should've prevented some of the problems the Humanty is about to encounter -- Overpopulation, Food shortage, etc.

It seems, they want the Humanity reach the condition where a Marshal Law would have to be exercised:
- one off-spring per family;
- birth deffects are considered a criminal offence, i.e. immediate annihilation; (the same refers to all under-developed countries);
-only one food consumption per day;
etc. etc. etc.

They sure seem to be driving the Humanity to the brink of extinction -- thereby postponning their own migration back home...

*** Oh, what a strange and self-contradictory creatures those aliens are!!!

i only have real thoughts. it is a basic policy of the establishment.

Well that is certainly one way of looking at it. And I gather that it is the only way that makes sense to you. But you must accept that there are other viewpoints that make sense to other people – as demonstrated by the several posts that reply directly to that statement.

Personally, I can quite easily entertain the notion of thought without sensory input.

And to my way of thinking, there can be no perception without awareness, which makes perception dependent upon awareness, not the other way around.

As to…Is it OK if “us guys” think you are just as funny in your unimaginative inflexibility?

s1owhand:

"real thoughts" at the Phylosophy thread?

WTF, Who are you kidding, me or YOURSELF? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

YOU DON'T EVEN COMPREHEND WHAT I'M REFERRING TO!!!
(read a few posts before mine...)

... suddenly, the fog of the preconcieved knowtions disperses, and I see the light... ENLIGHTMENT! {regarding the perception and awareness}:

.. at least Antropologically, it really seems the other way around:
1st, a baby developes perception, and only later comes awareness...(which is based on thoughts)

Animals are mindless creatures, they live by their reflexes...
The prehistoric humans had nothing else to rely on but their senses, i.e. perception.

AWARENESS develops much later in the human development:
the chaos surrounding the person slowly acquires the structure... As the surrounding objects acquire the meaning, Awareness comes to force...
Maybe, the Evolution has affected the sequence somehow?...


P.S. Looks like, after all, we owe Creative an appology, who's been right all along!)

Jane.....I have to disagree with your post....as to awareness comes later in human development....if you mean within an individual's development.

if you mean overall...the development of humanity, from primitive man, to now....I may be more agreeable.


For me, awareness; in this thread's context, is inherant...I was 'born' into this human form, with it...

and as I 'took on'..(learned ?) the labels, and terms and identities of what other's perceptions were, I became less aware.

Dulled, less receptive, and more clouded.

Real thoughts come from Universal Truth...(Oneness, higher consciousness, the All)....and I have always 'known' this...been aware of it.