Topic: Flip off a cop?
Mr_Music's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:07 AM
Do You Have the Right to Flip Off a Cop?

By SEAN SCULLY / PHILADELPHIA, 2:50 am ET

David Hackbart was mad, and he wanted to show it, but he didn't think he would end up in federal court protecting his right to a rude gesture and demanding that the city of Pittsburgh stop violating the First Amendment rights of its residents.

Hackbart, 34, was looking for a parking space on busy Murray Avenue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood on April 10, 2006. Spotting one, he attempted to back into it, but the driver of the car behind him refused to back up and give him sufficient room. Hackbart responded in the classic way. "I stuck my hand out the window and gave him the finger to say 'Hey, jerk, thanks,' " says Hackbart. "That's all I was trying to say - 'Thanks, thanks a lot.' "

At that moment, a voice rang out telling Hackbart not to make the rude gesture in public. "So I was like, How dare that person tell me? They obviously didn't see what happened. Who are they to tell me what to say?" he says. "So I flipped that person off. And then I looked, and it was a city of Pittsburgh cop in his car right next to me."

That turned out to be police sergeant Brian Elledge, who happened to be passing in the other direction in his cruiser. Elledge whipped around and pulled Hackbart over, citing him under the state's disorderly-conduct law, which bans obscene language and gestures. And here's where the problem lies, says state American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) legal director Witold (Vic) Walczak: the middle finger and equivalent swear words are not legally obscene. In fact, courts have consistently ruled that foul language is a constitutionally protected form of expression. A famous 1971 Supreme Court case upheld the right of a young man to enter the Los Angeles County Court House wearing a jacket emblazoned with the words "F___ the Draft."

"The law is clear that people have the constitutional right to use profanity, especially when it comes to government officials, because that is a form of political speech," Walczak says. "But despite that, we have police officers regularly misapplying the law to punish people who offend them - that's really what it comes down to."

U.S. District Judge David Cercone ruled in March that the citation, along with the $119.75 court costs imposed by a city court, was clearly unconstitutional. The question, however, is whether the city has a pattern of tolerating this kind of constitutional violation. The ACLU says it found 188 cases from 2005 to 2007 in which people were cited under similar circumstances, despite an entry in the police department's training manual making clear that vulgar speech is not illegal.

The question was set to go to trial in Federal District Court last week, but the matter was delayed at the last moment while the two sides explored a settlement. The city's law department declined to comment on the case.

The problem is not confined to Pittsburgh. In 2007, a woman in Scranton, Pa., was cited for yelling obscenities at an overflowing toilet in her home - a tirade overheard by her neighbor, an off-duty police officer. She was later acquitted on constitutional grounds, and the city paid her a $19,000 settlement. "We probably handle a dozen of these cases every year," Walczak says. "We're actually negotiating with the state police right now, trying to force them to change their training and written materials to make clear you can't do this."

It is, of course, part of a larger question. The recent controversy over the arrest of historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. - who was charged with disorderly conduct in his home after police arrived to investigate an erroneous report of a burglary in progress - was cast in racial terms: a white officer distrusting a black homeowner. But Walczak says this issue seems to have more to do with a police officer being confronted by an angry and disrespectful person and turning disorderly-conduct laws into a "contempt of cop" law, as he puts it. "Frankly, I think having someone dropping the F-bomb is better than resisting arrest or taking a swipe at a police officer," Walczak says. "But what we're seeing too often is that police who are offended by a lack of respect, often manifested by profanity or cursing, will punish people for that." (Read Ta-Nehisi Coates on the Henry Louis Gates Jr. affair.)

Elledge and the city police department have consistently refused to comment on the case. But Jim Pasco, executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police, says police officers are not out to systematically punish people who mouth off. "There is certainly no substitute for good judgment on the street," says Pasco, whose organization represents officers nationwide, including Pittsburgh, "and if in the officer's judgment, maintenance of order is going to be preserved by giving a citation or making an arrest, then the officer is going to use his judgment to make that arrest or issue that citation."

Officers clearly have varying levels of tolerance for rudeness from the people they encounter, he says, but he expressed little sympathy for anyone making rude remarks to or gestures toward officers. "Police officers have better things to do than give people citations," he says. "And if people are doing things to distract police officers from doing those things, then they should be held accountable in some way."

But Hackbart, a paralegal who learned about court rulings on vulgar language in a communications-law class, says police should not be able to punish people by issuing citations they know to be unconstitutional. Elledge "shouldn't be allowed to conduct himself like that with no repercussions," he says. "Does everybody have to go through this to defend themselves against a bogus charge?"

lilith401's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:17 AM
Edited by lilith401 on Wed 09/16/09 08:22 AM
Police Officers give good directions.

They tend to be undateable. (not all, just most)

longhairbiker's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:18 AM
I've been there a few times. Got a lewd conduct ticket in 85 for playing guitar in the street in level plains alabama. The disgusting excuse for law enforcement civil servant redneck said I was too loud. A car drove by with a loud stereo and I looked at barney fife and said "F**k you". And now Mr make up the constitutional rights as he goes is not a cop and is now a walmart greeter. He says "Welcome to walmart". And I still say to him "F**k you".

longhairbiker's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:20 AM
The judge had the common sense to throw it out. Reprimanded barney fife for wasting his time.

no photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:20 AM
Cops do whatever they want to, regardless of the laws. It puts a large burden on the court systems.

Mr_Music's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:23 AM
The thing that bugged me was the Jim Pasco quote:

"Police officers have better things to do than give people citations,"


First of all, that's part of their j-o-b. That's part of what they do. Secondly, if they do, indeed, have "better things to do", why aren't they doing 'em?

FearandLoathing's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:24 AM
Dunno...I never recieved a ticket for flipping off a cop, maybe he did it wrong?

longhairbiker's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:26 AM
I looked at barney fife as I was leaving the courtroom and said "Don't sing too loud in your southern baptist church on sunday barney. You might get a lewd conduct ticket in this town. The cops here suck and make up the laws as they go".

no photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:28 AM
Edited by Unknow on Wed 09/16/09 08:28 AM
A local police officer ran a stop sign doing 100 mph in his private car because he was in pursuit... He killed a teenager. No charges were, or planned to be, filed.

Far too many police officers believe, act, and are treated by the legal system, as though they are above the law.

Cops enforce the law. They are not a law unto themselves.

The only time cops do not revel in handing out citations is when one of their brethren violate traffic law.



PATSFAN's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:31 AM

no photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:34 AM
whoa scared laugh

lilith401's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:37 AM
There are good cops and bad cops, as within every other profession. I would imagine it would be hard to be a police officer in a variety of different ways.

Mr_Music's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:37 AM
Anyone who knows me on a personal level knows that I have very little use for cops, mainly because in my own personal experience, over 95% of them have been nothing but "badge-happy", who have more often times than not done nothing when I was the one who needed help....but let me screw up just once, even the slightest bit, and you can bet your *** they'll be all over me like white on rice. I find few things in life more pathetic than someone who carries a badge and a gun and believes it gives them license to be a hardass, and all under the guise of "upholding the law".

longhairbiker's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:43 AM
We had a piece of crap work of art cop in the town I used to live in. Named benning. Basically a guy who got picked on in high school one too many times and decided he hated everyone in the world and was going to become a vengeful mean cop that harasses its citizens. And he did for 10 years. It got to the point that everyone in town would go by him and give him the one finger salute. It was awesome to see 80 year old little old ladys flippin him off. He was so hated that townspeople started filing civil suit cases (including my father and a neighbor) against him, and his house was being vandalized. They fired him and he moved up to northern minnesota to become a deputy sheriff and continue his reign of terror. From the news reports on the net- he's been shot at a few times. I guess the folks up there don't like him and his harassment techniques either. But again- giving the finger is protected under expression and should not be a fineable offense.

longhairbiker's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:50 AM
And I have numerous freinds in law enforcement. We ride motorcycles together.

Mr_Music's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:51 AM
Edited by Mr_Music on Wed 09/16/09 08:53 AM
Exactly what I mean. Police officers are on duty to protect and serve. If they want to order people around, they should have children. I can totally get onboard with maintaining order, but not to just bend to their own personal will.

lilith401's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:55 AM
Most police officers are aware there are these turds that give them all a bad name. How easy it must be becoming a police officer knowing how the population feels about them generally. Makes their job even easier, I'd bet.

Can we do a doctor bashing thread next?


How about a rubbish collector bash thread?



No, wait... let's bash cashiers.

Mr_Music's photo
Wed 09/16/09 08:57 AM
Feel free to create any type of thread you so desire.

tngxl65's photo
Wed 09/16/09 09:08 AM
Edited by tngxl65 on Wed 09/16/09 09:10 AM
Protected or not protected, I don't think it's appropriate to flip off a law enforcement officer. I've always been polite and respectful as I told them they were wrong. Once it got me out of the ticket. Once it had no impact on the officer other than him telling me to take it up with the judge.... which I did, and won, and made him look like an *** in front of the judge.

Many people will test the boundaries of the law and of law enforcement officers. I tend to stay away from the boundaries unless I'm willing to accept the consequences (speeding).

Sure, some police officers can be jerks. I've known some well that were only in it for the ego. But I'm glad there's people out there willing to deal with the vast amount of bullsh*t, danger, and idiots. I sure as hell don't want to deal with that myself.

As for the 'Don't you have anything better to do?' question, that really is short sighted. You don't focus on just catching killers, or just catching rapists. If the police didn't enforce the 'lesser' laws, like the speed limit, then driving would be a free-for-all. It's enforcement of those 'less important' laws that make life relatively peaceful and pleasant for most everyone.

But back to the original topic, whether it is or isn't protected.... I don't think I'll have to worry about it. It's not because I'm being self righteous. I just think it's disrespectful.


Mr_Music's photo
Wed 09/16/09 09:15 AM
As for the 'Don't you have anything better to do?' question, that really is short sighted. You don't focus on just catching killers, or just catching rapists. If the police didn't enforce the 'lesser' laws, like the speed limit, then driving would be a free-for-all. It's enforcement of those 'less important' laws that make like relatively peaceful and pleasant for most everyone.


Funny you should mention that. It's supposed to be illegal to not use your signals for any and all deviations from your original lane of traffic, it's supposed to be illegal to pass on the right, it's supposed to be illegal for bicyclists to not obey all traffic laws just as much as any motor vehicle, etc....yet, who do I see doing it all the time, in addition to the regular drivers, but do nothing to enforce the laws regarding it? You guessed it.