How do you feel?

I think he was a mix. He was a man cause he was born from a woman. He
brought the Word of God so he is a Prophet. His followers gloryfied him
beyond the realm of fantasy so he became a myth.

*sighs* I dunno I'm not ready for that part yet...just got the whole
God thing

It is my belief that Jesus was a man, of a higher power. He profisied,
and became a legend. No fantasy, no myth. Real.
Kat

Hi Kat

I don't think HE was a myth. But I am wondering if some of the things
the disciples said about him are not myths.

The eyewitness reports from others not associated with his teachings do
not support some of their claims.

I would say the the biblical Jesus was real, was the legitimate Messiah
(and so a Prophet), but was not divine anymore than Moses, you or me.

The "diefication" of Jesus is so convoluted and illogical that I cant
even begin to think it was a serious theology. The idea that the "nature
of God" changed, in some way, to become
two-being-yet-still-one-while-Jesus-walked violates all the principles
of "Thou shalt have no other God".

Further, if Jesus was divine, then how could the divine "die" upon the
cross? Doesnt that violate the principle of what "divine/eternal" means?

If the divine Jesus "descended into hell for 3 days", then doesnt that
violate the entire principle of what "hell" [if such a place exists]
means? How could any aspect of "god" enter into a realm that is the
anti-thesis of 'godliness' ?

...gotta stop... getting too worked up.

Jesus, definitely myth. God bless myths.

Just a little something I found through research.

It does agree with most of what I have discovered by reading old records
(or at least things claimed to be old records).
You see the early founders of the Christian faith are not the only
people that were writing things down. Where they might have used word
of mouth the Governments at the time were keeping records through
scribes.

DISCLAIMER; This is not my work although some of it I did find to be
true when compared to old records.
This comes from an historian.

"
First and foremost, there never was a man named Jesus Christ! If you
read the New Testament, the son of God was allegedly born to a Jewish
carpenter named Joseph and his wife, Mary, from Bethlehem. They named
the child "Yoshua" and moved to a nearby city called Nazareth. Both
cities were in a land called Zion that was shortly thereafter renamed
Palestina-Jordana by the Roman Emperor Hadrian; the land having been
conquered by and occupied by the armies of Rome.

According to the scriptures, Yoshua was raised in Nazareth where he
excelled in school and, like his father, became a carpenter. At some
point, Yoshua realized he was the son of God and became a great
religious leader who "moved the masses" with his preaching that if you
believed in Him, you would be forgiven all of your sins and gain eternal
life in Heaven.

The scriptures further state that Yoshua was arrested by the Roman
soldiers for inciting masses of followers against the Roman occupation.
He was tried before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate. Pilate,
ostensibly, in an effort to keep his Governor’s skirts lilly-white, gave
the crowd a choice as to whether Yoshua or another criminal named
Barabus should be nailed to the cross for their crimes. The crowd
selected Yoshua to be crucified.

I have intentionally skimmed over the details as set forth in the
scriptures, because none of what the scriptures said can be historically
verified…except that there was a Roman Governor of Palestina-Jordana
named Pontius Pilate.

Pilate, like most politically appointed Governors of Rome, wrote a
detailed history of his reign as Governor as did all the Roman
Governors. It was the Governors’ way of assuring themselves that their
names would not be forgotten and their reign as governors would be
recorded in Roman history.

Interestingly, Pontius Pilate wrote extensively about the great
religious movements going on in the land of Jordana-Palestina because
there was great public concern about the possible imminent arrival of a
Messiah. Virtually everyone was expecting a Messiah as was written in
the Old Testament (Refer to "Isaiah Chapter 7- Verse 14").

Pilate painstakingly detailed the movements of such religious leaders as
John the Baptist, King Heroid, Paul the Rabbi, Peter the Fisherman,
John, etc…but not one single word about a Yoshua of Nazareth…the man
who, allegedly "moved the masses". Not one single word about Mary being
a virgin so she could bear God’s child; about a birth in a manger, about
a special star or three wise men, about a sermon on the Mount, about the
feeding of hundreds of people from a few loaves of bread, about a man
who walked on water, about a trial and/or a crucifixion of Yoshua, or
about a man who was allegedly resurrected after he was executed. He did
mention a criminal named Barabus who was crucified…but about
Yoshua…absolutely nothing!

In fact, there was no mention of a "Yoshua" or a "Jesus Christ" in any
histories written at that time until approximately two hundred years
after his supposed death. There did appear in the History of Capernicus
(not to be confused with Copernicus the astronomer), approximately 200
years after his death, a mention of a religious leader named Jesus
Christ. Most historians believe this was added to the History of
Capernicus during the reign of Constantine as Emperor of Rome in
approximately 350 AD.

The name Jesus Christ, actually came from the Greek "Jesus Christos"
meaning "Holy Savior". Although there is no written historical
documentation to support it, it is believed that the name "Jesus Christ"
was assigned to the person written about in the Letters of Paul who,
unfortunately, can no longer be identified. The New Testament tell us
this was Yoshua, but it could have been someone else. The assignment of
the name "Jesus Christ" to the alleged central character in the Letters
of Paul was done between fifty to one hundred years after Yoshua’s
alleged death. The travels of Paul were followed closely by several
historians as he was one of the great religious leaders of his time.
According to the scriptures, Paul gave the keys to Heaven and Hell to
Peter in Rome. According to historians, neither Peter nor Paul ever got
as far as Rome in their travels.

At this point, I deem it only proper to remind the reader that I am not
the Anti-Christ. I am merely setting forth recorded history as it was
recorded. If it differs markedly from the scriptures of the New
Testament, it is up to the reader to decide what he or she wishes to
believe.

The New Testament, in its present form, consists of 27 books. There were
an additional 40 to 50 books in the New Testament that were ordered
destroyed by Constantine the Great. Additionally, there were 17
previously sanctified books of the New Testament, called the
"Apocrypha", that were declared to be "unsanctified" in about 1400 AD
and were removed from the New Testament
"

Good find AB, that sounds like classical Talmud, toned down somewhat.
The real hardcore Talmud branches out to name Jesus as a bastard child
of Pantera (ever wonder where that band got the name from...?), that he
was a magician, and so-on.

These accounts were written around the time frame as Jesus life history,
and in a sense, confirm that Jesus existed as a real problem.

See http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Shamoun/talmud_jesus.htm

The quotation you presented also ignored mentioning the dubious "letter
of pilate", and the less-dubious, but nowhere 'cannonical' "Acts of
Pilate", which were once a centerpiece of pre-Nicean christian
scripture.

See http://www.cathar.info/gnosticgospels.htm [good jumping point]

There are even the accounts of Jesus being mentioned in Josephus,
written around 70AD. It has been suggested that the Jesus passages are
the work of a over-zealous pen-man later on.

-Mike

Interesting web site MM.

I would be more inclined to pay attention to what they said if the did
not in one breath say that all records were expunged and in another
claim their proofs were accurate.

It can not be both.

the only record that shows actual information is as is the Christian
records compiled 300 to 400 years AD way after the fact.

The stuf I showed you was not of the Talumud but rather an historical
look at ancient Roman records from courts in Rome and Constantinople.
Intersting point is that within those records there are eywitness
accounts from those times. Some mention a man which could have been
jesus. Only problems is that any account that describes his 'works' are
written by persons that converted to Christianity. Imagine that.

If there really was a man named Jesus, or Yoshua, or whatever, I think
it would be fascinating to see a genuine documentary of his life. I
mean, actual excerpts from history, I’m not talking about a Hollywood
movie of it. Obviously that would be impossible in this life as no one
has a clue what really happened back then.

“Virtually everyone was expecting a Messiah as was written in the Old
Testament (Refer to ‘Isaiah Chapter 7- Verse 14’).”

This is one problem with indoctrinated religions in the first place.
If Isaiah prophesies the appearance of a messiah and everyone was
expecting one at that period of time (especially in an oppressed
society), it is perfectly natural that many people would rise to the
occasion to become said prophet.

Even today there are people on the Internet (even on these very forums)
who believe that they are being guided by the holy spirit to interpret,
preach, or otherwise write things that are of divine origin. I’m sure
there were just as many crackpots around back then too.

So it’s really hard to say what went on back then. I used to believe
that the writings in the Bible were possibly pretty accurate accounts of
things (save for some expected biased exaggerations which is typical of
human writers). But in light of how poorly the official historical
records have been preserved this brings the Bible into extreme
uncertainty. Why would the Bible be so perfectly accurate when society
as a whole was not even keeping good records. Moreover, it is well
known that the Churches themselves maintain, copied, translated, and
most likely edited the Bible over centuries. They were absolutely
biased without question, they would ‘clean-up’ little details with every
translation and reprint (which were done by hand in those days). And it
has also been documented historically that indeed the cannon has been
tampered with as far as which works would be accepted and rejected to be
included in the final collection that we now refer to as a ‘single’
book.

In light of these historical facts it amazes me how any modern man would
even consider these stories as being precise or factual. I would have
labeled this mythology a long time ago. I mean, I’m sure something
happened back then, and maybe there was a preacher named Jesus or Yoshua
but it’s certainly not clear enough to base a lifetime of faith on it.
At least not for me it isn’t. Everything that was written about it was
written by biased authors who had extreme reasons to exaggerate and
create a surreal martyr for themselves considering the oppression of
their time. I’d rather live in my own era.

JMHO

AB my brother, I respect you because you have an amazing wisdom, but
sometimes you write somethings that just make me sad.
How could you say such a thing?
Regardless of what you say I'll keep you as my brother forever, and
maybe you will be with me in my heaven that goes beyond the realm of
fantasy, and it is a fantasy for me.

Regards.

TLW

Hi Miguel,

I believe we’re all going to heaven no matter what we believe. I
believe that’s where we all came from in the first place. But like AB
I’m not convinced that any particular historical events or manmade
religions have much to do with heaven.

I don’t believe in heaven because I learned about it from men. I knew
about heaven when I was a very young child and fortunately I guess I
just never grew up. Of course, I didn’t know it was called ‘heaven’.
That’s just a word.

Heaven’s not a ‘place’, it’s a spiritual state of being.

We’ll all be in heaven together, and we’ll also live many more physical
lives again too. And don’t worry about becoming bored over eternity,
because there are an infinity of worlds to experience. Living on planet
earth is merely one of them. It’s a nice planet though don’t you
think? I wouldn’t mind coming back here, maybe in a differnet storyline
though.

It’s all good,
James

Thanxs James you and most of the spititual not religious or even
atheist, make more sense to me than those who call themselves
christians.

Regards

TLW

TLW Those were not my words but the words of an historian.

I am not sure what to beleive as far as that goes because of the dates
placed on our current translations.

The things this historian used were dated from the time in question and
not from 300 years later. He also had questions in his histories about
the Koran as it aslo was significantly changed 400 years after it was
given. And it also does not match the histories of the Government
scribes from the time.

Makes one wonder.

Ahh...AB...what a great subject matter...

My biological father once told me...

"History books are written by the winners"

Mmmmmm.....

Jesus is God the Son, He was God incarnate (God and man), He is Prophet,
Priest and King, He is our Saviour and He is coming back soon.

From Revelation 21:

We know that this is Jesus talking in the following scripture.

Revelation 21:6
-------------------------------------------------------------
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and
the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the
water of life freely.
-------------------------------------------------------------

The following scripture speaks to who Jesus is in a dramatic way.

Revelation 21:6
-------------------------------------------------------------
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and
he shall be my son.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Here, Jesus identifies himself as the Father. He is the Son and the
Father in a relationship that is beyond our ability to comprehend.
Jesus is God and man. Jesus is Father, Son and Brother. Jesus is the
great I AM.

Jesus was a man who ispired many. I do not doubt that a man such as
him self spread a beatiful idea around the world and created the belief
of a god that would make life after death a beautiful experience. Myths
are things that can become exagerated that are not completely true,
therefor, I also believe he has been turned, by man into the myth we
shall forever know as God. It is not the belief in him or any others
like him who spoke the word of God that will get a person to heaven. It
is the beief in anything, that will make life after death gloriuos.
People shall always be rembered, in this life and the next for how they
lived their life. Your heaven is an extension of your soul, therefor,
no one persons heaven is alike. Jesus is rembered for the knowledge and
wisdom he spread. I thank him for helping us understand that there was
more out there. I do not, however, believe he would respect what we
have turned his teachings into.