Simply put; The Bibles claims it is not in your nature as a human being to be good enough,.

A person who seeks independence from the God who sustains all spiritual life then cries foul they have to die spiritually, calling it unfair, is like a person who dies of thrist with a glass of water in front of him/her, blameing some other for the awlful punishment of dying by dehydration

So?

Christians just invent their own version of Christianity just so they can accept it. At least they aren't accepting anything real.

Where's the difference?

Sparrows wrote:

>(YOU HAVE INVENTED YOUR OWN VERSION OF CHRISTIANITY JUST SO YOU CAN REJECT IT, GOOD FOR YOU,AT LEAST YOU ARE NOT REJECTING THE REAL THING)<

This is one of the main reasons I totally reject those writings as having anything to do with our creator. To begin with, if that really were true, who's fault would that be? Obviously it would be the fault of the creator!

You can't created a bunch of souls who do not have it in their nature to be "good enough" and then BLAME them for that failing!

Do you see how utterly absurd this is.



You've totally missed the point. Slow never referred to anyone who seeks independence from any God. He simply stated that surely any truly benevolent God would indeed appreciate and be kind to any kind souls.

In fact, why should God have anything against a GOOD person who is an atheist? That person would indeed be doing GOOD things by their own choice (not because they are attempting to appease a God).

That should be viewed by God as an even more righteous person than someone who merely refrains from doing bad things just to get the glass of water in your hypothetical spiritual desert. :whao:

I personally worship and praise God in my own way. So in that sense I am not rejecting God, nor am I seeking spiritual independence. I simply reject the ancient dogma that we aren't good enough for God.

I personally think that's utter hogwash.

I'm perfectly good enough for God, thank you very much.

I won't hold God responsible for an utterly confusing and self-contradicting book that was written by a bunch of male-chauvinistic Hebrews.

The Bible clearly states it cannot be done.

Here is something for you to ponder on:
Adam & Eve had a relationship with God, but ever since they ate the fruit they were obsessed with right and wrong, good and evil. As is humankind today.

Another worth pondering:
I think it may have been intentionally written that way.Because people see what they look for... the Bible has a unique sifting mechanism written into it.

You're absolutely RIGHT, it's not a FREE Gift at all!

People better read the FINE PRINT.

If you accept the Crucifixion of Jesus on your behalf that means that you totally condone the crucifixion be done on your behalf.

In other words, if you aren't willing to nail Jesus to the cross yourself, then you aren't willing to accept the sacrifice in YOUR NAME.

If you would have done anything at all to prevent the crucifixion, or even so much as refuse to be party to it, then you are rejecting the sacrifice on YOUR BEHALF.

I absolultely reject the crucifixion on my behalf. Without a doubt. I would not nail Jesus to the pole, nor would I condone having him nailed to the pole by someone on MY BEHALF.

Therefore I CANNOT accept or condone this 'sacrifice' for my sake.

As a matter of principle I would necessarily have no choice but to accept eternal damnation.

So even if the fable is true, I would could not be "saved" because I'm not willing to nail Jesus to the pole for my sake.

The only people who would go to this heaven would be the people who are willing to have Jesus nailed to a pole to pay for their sins. That would not include me.

I would have no choice but to refuse the offer. There's nothing FREE about it and the price is far too high to pay. I would need to condone the crucifixion of a supposedly totally innocent man on my behalf to save myself.

So the religion is utterly worthless to me even if it is true. This God would have rigged things to make it impossible for me to be "saved".

Have fun in Heaven! I guarantee you won't be seeing me there.

The Bible disagrees with all religions that claim to believe in it.

So what else is new?

sparrows,

being good cannot be separate from god. god is the essence of good.
anytime one is good then they commune with god. it is impossible to
be good apart from god by definition.

therefore any good or virtuous behavior....

Why should I give a hoot what the Bible says?

Apparently you fell for the idea that the Bible represents "God's Word".

I personally don't believe the book is anyone nearly intelligent enough to be the word of any divine supreme being.



I personally don't believe that story any more than I believe the stories of ancient Greek Mythology.

Here is something for you to ponder:

If God is all-wise then why does the Bible have this God always solving problems using utterly unwise and often quite violent ways? Also why do the stories within the Bible stand in such blatant contradiction with each other?

For example, the Bible has humankind becoming more and more disobedient to God until it apparently gets so out-of-control that God has to flood the entire planet save for a handful of questionable humans in an ark?

First off, this very story implies that God wasn't wise enough to see this coming and nip it in the bud before it got so far out of hand.

Secondly this is clearly a very violent solution. Not only does he kill all the people on Earth, including innocent babies and children, but he also wipes out all the poor innocent animals in the process. That was real smart.

Also if this is the same God who you can pray to and ask him to magically cure your cancer then why couldn't he have just given all the sinners heart attacks? Or better yet just make them all sterile so they couldn't have any more children. Then the generations of sinners would have finally died off without having to drown innocent babies and children.

Clearly this Biblical God is not the least bit wise.

Then he promises some people some land, and after leading them through a desert for 40 years he finally shows them the real estate but it's already inhabited by a bunch of heathen. So God just tells his choosen people to murder all the heathens and once again kill all their women, children and babies too.

Again, if he knew this was coming whe didn't he just make the heathen sterile so they couldn't reproduce? Then by the time he finally found the piece of real estate there woudln't be any heathens on it.

The Bible says that God is unchanging and is the same yestersay, today and tomorrow. But not so according to the New Testament!

In the New Testament God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son as a sacrifical lamb to save the souls of men.

Well, hey. Is this the SAME God who once hated the world so much that he downed everyone out?

Why should I believe anything that's written in the Bible. It's clearly a bunch of conflicting stories that make no sense at all.

Even if I accept the "Crucifixion" of Jesus as the Son of God what does that say? It just means that I accept yet one more violent solution to God's problems.

I thought this God was supposed to be WISE? Solving everything with acts of violence doesn't seem very wise to me.

So I'll pass on believing that the Bible is the word of any "all-wise" God. It appears to me to be the writtings of bumbling idiots, not an all-wise supreme being.

Let's all HOPE that if we have a creator, that creator is far wiser than the idiots who wrote the Bible.

Simply put; The Bibles claims it is not in your nature as a human being to be good enough

As i'm here on this forum, and i've talked with many of you before, i feel as if i'm talking to primarily christians on this forum. However i know that i've also talked with other Mormons, Jews and Muslims.

My question is Why don't you believe in another god, or another worship of your god. For instance christianity has hundreds of different sub-sects, many of which believe that others will not reach salvation because of the alteration of their faith.

Ultimately it comes down to semantics. Do you believe in your ways of faith because of the way you were raised? Did you research all known religions before you made your decision? Do you believe that your religious "knowledge" is more right than another persons.

Ultimately, why do you believe that you are right?

To me, one religion is as false as the other. All religion is is personalized. We see more and more of people who no longer attend a church, but instead adhere to their own form of spiritual adhesion. They read their spiritual texts and then believe more in their own interpretation more than other scholars'.

Discuss.

Nonsense! Show me this claim!

Sparrows wrote:

You have "assumed" there is a problem to be solved. Why have you not viewed it as a premeditated process that takes into account the free choice of humankind?

To judge a thing as "un-wise' you must have all the facts past present and future about the thing.Obviously you do not posses such knowledge, therefore you cannot judge the "un-wiseness" of things that pertain to eternity.

"Violent ways" in this you refer to the flood drowning most all humankind.If you read you will see that God had Noah warn the people for 40 years there was a flood coming, but they refused to believe and drowned instead...And now you blame God? He gave them the freedom to choose as he does you. They chose drowning.If I give you freedom to do what you want, but warn you not to play in the street and a car runs you over...how is that my fault?

Even now you have a choice to make.

I believe the only way is the Holy Bible. If it's not of the Bible, then it's not the truth. That's what I was born into and events in my life have reinforced my beliefs. It's a personal thing. If you're seeking the one true God, He will be revealed to you. If you are not open to finding the one true God, you will never find him. God gives us freewill to accept, reject, and even create our own version of Him.

Almost a dozen passages come to mind scattered through out the Bible. Will (3) passages be enough to show you this claim?

(1)Mark 10:18 (where Jesus says): "No one is good except God alone"

Excuse me, but that is the problem according to the Bible.

You've just described the "problem" and act as if it doesn't exist. What sense does that make? Abslutely no sense at all.

To judge a thing as "un-wise' you must have all the facts past present and future about the thing.Obviously you do not posses such knowledge, therefore you cannot judge the "un-wiseness" of things that pertain to eternity.

Totally untrue. I am judging stories in a book in human terms based on the stories in the book. Period!

That is all that I'm doing. And it is my firm conclusion that these stories are totally unwise in that context.

What you are doing on the other hands, is merely assuming that there exists other information outside of the book that somehow justifies this God.

In other words, even you recognize that my conclusions are indeed correct given the actual information at hand.

"Violent ways" in this you refer to the flood drowning most all humankind.If you read you will see that God had Noah warn the people for 40 years there was a flood coming, but they refused to believe and drowned instead...And now you blame God? He gave them the freedom to choose as he does you. They chose drowning.If I give you freedom to do what you want, but warn you not to play in the street and a car runs you over...how is that my fault?

If you are a father of a child who is incapable of understanding the danger of playing in the street, and you allow that child to play in the street, then you are an incompetent and irresponsible parent. In fact, by our current laws you could be charged with abuse via neglect.

These lame excuses that you attempt to make up for this God simply don't wash. That are every bit as lame as the stories in the Bible, IMHO.

Even now you have a choice to make.

I already made my choice. I choose to reject the writings of the ancient Hebrews as being utterly ignorant, stupid, and foolish and therefore cannot possibly be the thoughts, words, or actions of any supreme all-wise deity. That story is every bit as stupid as the stories of Zeus and everyone accepts that those stories are stupid.

That is my choice sir.

You are welcome to chose whatever you like, but don't try to sell it to me because your sales pitches are utterly devoid of any value to me. They are just as short-sighted and lame as the Biblical stories IMHO.

God gives us freewill to accept, reject, and even create our own version of Him.