That's the overall impression I get too, even based on what the gospels have to say about Jesus.

But the Christians aren't happy with a nice Jesus. They prefer to make him out to be a monster who will hate you if you don't worship him.

The problem with the Bible overall, is that it contains so many contradictions that it can be used to support just about any view. For some reason a lot of so-called "Christians" prefer to use the ugliest verses and interpretations they can find to try to make out like God and Jesus will hate anyone who doesn't support their sick views and interpretations.

I'm actually in agreement with you to a very large degree Slowhand.

You have suggested the the "True Jews" were actually pantheists, and did not view God as being a Zeus-like male godhead, but rather as a mysterious undefinable entity much like Easter Mysticism. Of course, the problem with that is that the biblical stories simply don't reflect that view, IMHO. For the very reason that they claim to be the "Word of God" which implies that God is an egotistical Zeus-like individual who has specific wants, needs, and even rules or commandments that he expects us to OBEY.

So the biblical story of a judgmental God who carves commandments into stone and turns people into pillars of salt, and directs people to judge each other and stone each other to death, doesn't fit in with the idea of a pantheistic "god", IMHO.

So for the Jews to actually view God in a pantheistic way they would need to truly also recognize that the bulk of the Bible is not the "word of God" at all, but rather just the opinions of men who maybe thought their inspiration came form "God".

Of course, the Jews back in the days of Jesus didn't have a single dependable "Torah". There were no printing presses back then and most of what they believed at that time was passed around via oral communication. Everyone probably had a drastically different idea of what 'god' expected from them, etc.

This nasty collection of stories we have in print today that we call the "Holy Bible" can, at it's very best, be nothing more than various opinionated shreds of what some people might have believed back in the days of Jesus.

I will forever be convinced that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who actually tried to get his Jewish brothers to move away from the teachings of the old Torah and tried to get them to see the value of the truths taught by Buddha.

It's sad that his efforts ended in vain. And it's even sadder that the Christians turned him into a dead marionette doll monster to be used to prop up and support the very dogma that Jesus himself was obviously opposed to even according to the gospels.

The Christians are the ones who created a monster out of poor Jesus.

Would I recognise god if standing right in front of me?


I recognise the 'godness' in all who stand in front of me...

That's the overall impression I get too, even based on what the gospels have to say about Jesus.

But the Christians aren't happy with a nice Jesus. They prefer to make him out to be a monster who will hate you if you don't worship him.

The problem with the Bible overall, is that it contains so many contradictions that it can be used to support just about any view. For some reason a lot of so-called "Christians" prefer to use the ugliest verses and interpretations they can find to try to make out like God and Jesus will hate anyone who doesn't support their sick views and interpretations. [snip]

Only a moron would believe that the things Catholicism does and believes represent Christianity. Even funches recognises that Catholicism is paganism. Perhaps you should look up the definition yourself.

And if you think I'm wrong, address just one of the first 10 examples I gave. Of course I still expect ZERO proof from you, let alone you even try to address them. For, if you were to address them, you would have to eventually agree with me that Catholicism = paganism, only a delusional imbecile would not.

Your lack of knowledge on the subject shows everytime you spew your twisted views and opinions.

Just had to point out that this is EXACTLY what you do.....

The Goddess has no clothes! No sex organs either!

And I do think that many ancient Jews as well as modern Jews are
pantheists. Jews do NOT view the Old Testament or Torah as the
literal inerrant word of God - they require interpretation of every
passage. So there has never been a universally recognized interpretation of the OT. Plus they don't believe in heaven or hell
per se and their God is the same one Jesus believed in and their
standard of moral conduct is the same one that Jesus advocated!

That's very true. And like you say, Jesus, being a Jew would have also viewed God in a pantheistic sense.

In fact, if this can even be seen in the writings of the New Testament.


Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

What a clever statement for a pantheist to make!

Jesus acknowledges that the Torah is indeed the "Law of Man" and not the 'Word of the Father'. Yet as a pantheist he acknowledged that he said it, because we are all one.

Jesus also acknowledged pantheism in many ways. Like in the follow verse too.


Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Again recognizing that he is no different from anyone else. The pantheist view.

Yes, I see your perspective Slow. Jesus himself was coming from a pantheistic Jewish mindset, not from the Christian mindset which didn't even become a mindset until long after Jesus was dead.

And yet you will still deny the fact that Catholicism is NOT Christianity... go figure

The Goddess has no clothes! No sex organs either!

I have a sex organ and a love for the Goddess.

Does that make me a spiritual organist?

I could help a female choir sing with ecstasy.

A godness goddess with organs to spare...shame the pianist has to miss out...

I don't deny that the Protestants believe as you suggest.

The Protestants believe that they rejected Catholicism. They aren't about to confess that they are the ones who are in the wrong.

By 'in the wrong' I simply mean that they rejected a religion, yet cling to it's major tenants, such as the idea that Jesus was indeed "The Christ". But that's the basis of Catholicism right there.

So now the Protestants try to claim that only their rebellious protests represent "True Christianity" whilst they reject the Catholics as being a "False religion".

This is just so TYPICAL of how divisive the whole Abraham picture of God can get. So now the Protestants deny the Catholics and the Catholics deny the protestants, and they both point the finger at each other screaming, "You're the false religion!"

It's just the TYPICAL religious bigotry that stains all forms of Christianity whether they be Catholicism or one if the myriad of protesting Protestant sects.

So NO, I don't agree with you that it's a FACT that Catholicism is not Christianity. Not at all. As far as I can see you're just supporting Protestant bigotry against Catholicism.

The Protestants and Catholics have been calling each other names since day one. Nothing new there.

Like I say, it only serves to drive home the point of how utterly hateful and divisive Christianity truly is no matter what other labels you put on it.

Call it Catholicism. Call it Protestantism. It makes no difference. They are both Christianity, and they both preach hatred against each other and against everyone else who refuses to agree with them.

Really, I can understand why you must deny the truth...

You can list as many opinions as you like. That doesn't change the FACT that they are still nothing but opinions.

Moreover, as I've already pointed out, if you want to take Protestantism to the ultimate extreme, you're speaking to the ultimate Protestant.

I protest against the whole thing. :

I protest against the idea that Yahweh represents "God". As far as I'm concerned it's a fable that has no more merit than Greek Mythology. It's a story about an angry jealous male-chauvinistic Zeus-like Godhead who does things like turn people into pillars of salt and drown out the entire population of the Earth save for a handful of people and a boatload of animals. How silly can it be?

It's about a God who demands we obey his commandments or we'll be subject to his judgmental wrath.

So I protest against the very idea of a personified Zeus-like Godhead who is even appeased by burnt offerings and blood sacrifices just like Zeus was (and most other mythological personified Gods).

I protest against the idea that Jesus was the son of Yahweh. Well I have to don't I? I just got down protesting against Yahweh in the first place. But then again it should be crystal clear to everyone that Jesus did not agree with the teachings of Yahweh. Even many protestants speak of Jesus bringing a "New Covenant" and fully recognize that he did not support the so-called "Old Covenant".

So the fact that Jesus did not teach or agree with the old teachings of Yahweh is highly recognized even by many so-called "Christians" themselves. Although instead of recognizing that this clearly shows that Jesus could not have been the son of Yahweh, they try to pretend as though God has a "Change of Heart" in how he deals with mankind. But the biblical God is supposed to be 'unchanging' in fundamental ways. So for him to have a "Change of Heart" in how he deals with the sins of mankind is already an oxymoron for the religion. They'd be far better off just recognizing that Jesus had nothing to do with Yahweh.

So, I'm the ultimate Protestant. I take Protestantism to it's ultimately conclusion. Jesus was not the son of Yahweh, and he most certainly was not "The Christ".

So that leaves us with the question of who Jesus might have truly been. Well, I've given an explanation for this many times over. Once you accept the foolishness of believing in Yahweh, and look at the life of Jesus in context with humanity in general, it becomes crystal clear that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who believed in a pantheistic view of life. It's clear in everything he taught (even according to the rumors in the hearsay of the gospels) Jesus was teaching a pantheistic view of life.

Did Jesus believe in the Torah?

Well, I think Slowhand's perspective on that reveals a lot. Many Jews did not view Yahweh as a personified jealous Zeus-like judgmental Godhead, but instead viewed God in a more abstract pantheistic sense. Most Jews saw the writings in the Torah as the writings of men and believed that there may be some divine inspiration in the actions of those men. However, they always keep an open mind for interpreting these stories.

Well, if you recognize this ancient Jewish view of a mystical God, and also recognize that Jesus was an ancient Jew. Put that together with the highly likely possibility that Jesus was also educated in the teachings of Buddhism and my scenario of Jesus makes perfect sense.

Mahayana Buddhism was at it's peak in India right about the same time Jesus was supposed to have lived. Even within the Bible itself "Wise men from the East" are recognized to be in active in Israel at the time. Even the story of the Birth of Jesus they claim that three wise men from the East showed up to visit. (although I doubt there is any truth to that story), but still it shows that the authors recognized the religious and spiritual significance of "Wise men from the East". The Mahayana Buddhists.

So the idea that Jesus was educated in Buddhism as well as Judaism is more than highly likely, you can pretty much be assured of it!

Everything that Jesus taught fits in perfectly with this picture.

Nothing that Jesus taught fits in with the picture of the old Yahweh.

So why fight the obvious?

Jesus was a ancient Jew who say the parallels between a pantheistic view of Judaism and the wisdom of Mahayana Buddhism.

And what's wrong with that picture?

Nothing is wrong with it. It respect Judaism, it respects Buddhism, and it respect Jesus. The only thing it doesn't respect is a Zeus-like interpretation of Yahweh as a jealous egotistical male-chauvinistic godhead who demands to be obeyed or you will face his wrath and he's turn you into a pillar of stone, or drown you, or cause you to have some other horrible fate.

I see no reason to give the "Christians" any respect. As far as I'm concerned they refuse to respect Judaism which was the religion of Jesus. They also reject Buddhism and pantheism, yet the teachings of Jesus clearly reveal his understanding of the pantheist view of life.

So I think my version of "Protestantism" should be held above all others.

Hey why not? That's what Protestants do. They claim to have the only "true interpretation" of ancient fables, myths, and historical rumors.

I think my interpretation of the life of Jesus is as valid as anyone's. And it give great respect to Jesus. It's Yahweh I denounce.

As far as your war between the Catholics and Protestants over who represents true "Christianity", I couldn't care less!

As far as I'm concerned they're both using Jesus as an excuse to hate. It's despicable.

Notice that in my version of the story of Jesus there is no need to believe that Jesus was anything more than a spiritual man who was trying to teach wisdom. Therefore it doesn't matter whether anyone believes my version or not. There's nothing to be 'saved' from but your own delusions of ego. But Buddhism has very good instructions that cover that, and there's no need to create a bigoted religion to 'save' yourself from your illusion of ego.

You don't need to go around demanding that people believe that Jesus was nailed to a pole to pay for their sins. What good does that do anyone anyway? That's just a big waste of everyone's time.

What exactly did you mean by this?

"Yes, I see your perspective Slow. Jesus himself was coming from a pantheistic Jewish mindset, not from the Christian mindset which didn't even become a mindset until long after Jesus was dead."

Summer colds....


Ummmm....ooops....


I figured they could do with some enlightening up...

I was agreeing with some views that Slowhand posted.

Slowhand suggests that the original Jews were actually pantheistic in their view of God. This would include Jesus, of course, because Jesus was supposedly a Jew.

The "Christian" mindset of thinking of God as a personified Zeus-like Fatherly image came later, and wouldn't have been the perspective of Jesus.

I agree.

And thus we can conclude that the original Jews actually viewed the idea of God in more mystical sense that would be far more in-line with the teachings of Buddhism and Eastern Mysticism.

Thus it makes perfect sense to draw conclusions that Jesus was attempting to meld together these two religious philosophies.

Even the gospels reveal that Jesus did not agree with many of the directives that had been put forth by the Torah in the "name of god".

Therefore to use Jesus to support a personified picture of a judgmental Godhead makes no sense.

I'm in agreement with that view.

And yet you will insist that the "Christian mindset which didn't even become a mindset until long after Jesus was dead" is true Christianity???

You have just proven what I've been saying all along. (or at least believe it yourself)

How will you twist this one around to deny the truth?