I don't believe in a gory evil God who has people crucified just to make a point. Or that such a gory crucifixion would in any way appease God and please God, or be required to attain his forgiveness.

Sorry.

I prefer not to think of God as a monster.

Atheism would be more attractive, IMHO.

Why can you not respect my choice to believe in a healthy, sane, and wise vision of God?

I prefer to think of God who is at least as sane, intelligent, and as compassionate as myself. And hopefully infinitely more so.

What's wrong with that.

Why do you keep shoving this ugly demented picture of God in my face?

Can't you respect my choice to believe in a God that is actually divine without constantly accusing me of "rejecting God".

I suggest that God might actually be GOOD and you demand that I'm rejecting God because I refuse to accept your sick demented picture of God. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Sorry.

It wasn't for appeasement of God. It's simple as Jesus taking your place in death so you would not have to. Jesus died so you wouldn't have to.

I fully understand that this is how you view the story. This is your interpretation of things.

I personally feel that the story cannot be made to work this way.

Therefore the story works for YOU.

It does not work for ME.

Do you understand?

But you have not shown a substantial reason on why it doesn't work for you. Anything you have said I have shown the contrary of it, so please yes do some more explaining for I obviously do not understand where you're coming from.

I don't need to show anything to you.

I don't buy into your bigoted hateful religion.

It's that simple.

You are a perfect example of why Christianity is so obnoxious.

It creates people like you who refuse to allow people of other faiths their beliefs without having to prove themselves to YOU!

This is precisely what makes Christianity such an arrogant and dangerous religion.

Just accept that I see God differently from you.

And leave it at that.

look, another thread equating 'truth' with 'opinion'


both believers and non believers do it so regularly in this thread that its hardly a surprise but perhaps both sides could try to accept that they have their own reasons for their 'belief' or disbelief and that noone is going to prove those personal reasons WRONG or RIGHT no matter how long they discuss them

Oh but that's where you're wrong and forget where you're at. In a day to day form of environment no you wouldn't have to show me anything of anything. Must we forget that this is a "General Religion Chat". Thus by you just disagreeing doesn't show much, just shows your disagreement. Does not show why or anything along those lines. Thus it's not much of a discussion, just a disagreement.

I agree completely with you there. Just in a discussion when a opposing view is seen, it's usually discussing and explained. When it is not explained it's not much of a discussion, it's merely someone disagreeing. A discussion is usually done to sway one to their side by showing evidence of what and why they believe. And this can not be done if some form of explanation is supplied. And if you're not trying to encourage people to your views and or your beliefs then the only other reason for talking here would be being obnoxious and or just here to cause problems of some sort.

I think that understanding is another goal of discussion. Its not all about being RIGHT or WRONG. When we start from a position declaring negatives about anyone as 'TRUTHS' we kind of close off the probability of reaching any understanding because we set the premise for a competetive (us vs them) discussion instead of an illuminating (I didnt realize that, that is interesting) one.

Exactly, and it's hard to understand it if they do not include why it is that way.

Good, I'm glad you see things this way.

As for the Bible I have many reasons for rejecting it as the "Word of God".

1. It's almost a direct copy of Zeus and everyone accept that Zeus is a myth.

2. It's based on the same type of a Male Godhead who is appeased by blood sacrifices.

3. I personally don't believe that an all-wise supreme being would have any interest in blood sacrifices. I'll grant you that this is a personal belief, but I'm just giving some of my reasons. I believe that if a God is going to be divine, it should be divine, and I see nothing divine in blood sacrifices.

4. I don't believe that God created women as an afterthought from the rib of man. Moreover, the hardcore evidence of evolution does not support that model.

5. If Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of Good and Evil before they ate from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, then they could not have known that it would be an evil act to each such fruit. So the very story of Adam and Eve's fall from grace is an oxymoron in its own right.

6. Scientific evidence reveals that death, disease, and all manner of imperfections and natural disasters occurred before mankind appeared on planet Earth. So the charge that mankind's fall from grace is cause of death, evil, and imperfections on Earth is clearly a fictional fable. (in other words, we have every bit as much reason for rejecting the biblical myths as mythology as we have to reject Zeus)

7. The Book of Job flies in the face of everything the bible claims about God. First off, it has Satan asking for God's permission to test Job. That's hardly a disobedient fallen angel, that's more like an extremely obedient hit man.

8. The Book of Job flies in the face of everything the bible claims about God. Secondly, it has God testing Job's loyalty. This flies in the face of the ideal that God already knows what's in the hearts of men. It also flies in the face that a righteous person can trust God.

9. If all sin is equal and all men are sinners, then there would have been no reason for God to save Noah and his family from the flood. Moreover, if God could forgive Noah and his family of their sins, then the idea that Jesus would be needed for to forgive men their sins later would be an oxymoron.

10. There is actual scientific DNA evidence that no world-wide catastrophic flood told of in the story of Noah could have possibly taken place on planet Earth during the time humans roamed the Earth. (so once again, the fable has been shown to have no more merit than the Greek Mythological fables that Gods live on Mt. Olympus)

11. I personally don't feel that there was anything wise in the way that God supposedly handed the Canaanites. I agree this is a personal view. However, if God is said to be wise, then I think God should exhibit wise behavior. To allow people to continue to have offspring for 400 years knowing that they are all sinners and will never change is just plain stupid, IMHO. All God needed to do was to make them sterile and they would have died off within a single generation.

12. I personally not impressed by a God who commands people not to kill, then presents his followers with a promised land that is occupied and commands them to kill every man, woman, and child, with no mercy. That's an oxymoron too, IMHO. And thus I see no reason to even remotely place any faith in this story being true.

13. Jesus didn't even agree with the moral values that had been taught in the Torah. On the contrary, he taught moral values that more closely resemble the those of Mahayana Buddhism, which was at it's peak at the time when Jesus supposedly lived.

14. Jesus did not claim to be bringing a "New Covenant" as many Christians try to claim. On the contrary the gospels have him clearly stating that he did not come to change the laws, and that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law. So the idea that Jesus brought a "New Covenant" from God is absurd.

15. Once it is recognized that Jesus was not God, nor the son of any God, then there is no longer any reason to trust anything that is written in the gospels. Therefore the entire thing can be seen as nothing more than a scam to try to use Jesus as a dead marionette doll to prop up the very doctrine that Jesus himself rejected, even according to the Gospels!

16. There are far better spiritual pictures to be had. Why waste anymore time on this sick demented fable when far better spiritual pictures exist?

17. Again, this is my own personal view. But I would rather believe in atheism than in the Biblical God. I don't see any wisdom in the biblical picture overall, it's just an extremely contradicting story that is filled with absurdities. To believe it I would need to believe that God is inept at best, or downright evil at worst.

18. So from the above there is no sane reason to want to believe these stories even on faith alone. I'd really need to be desperate to even want to believe in them. I'd need to have some horrible fear of death or whatever, which I don't have.

19. Finally, if the stories were true, I would choose death over eternal life serving the God in these fables. That would be my choice. So even if I were to actually accept these stories as true, my answer to this God would be "No Thank You". And then I would be at the mercy of his evil wrath I guess.

20. This picture of a God is a picture of a being that is not even as nice as me. Why would I want to believe in a God who isn't even as nice as me?

There you go, have at it. I'm sure you'll give your standard objections, which have never impressed me in the past, and most likely won't impress me this time either.

And keep in mind YOUR SELLING the book. I'm simply not buying.

I already have a wonderful relationship with God.

3. I personally don't believe that an all-wise supreme being would have any interest in blood sacrifices. I'll grant you that this is a personal belief, but I'm just giving some of my reasons. I believe that if a God is going to be divine, it should be divine, and I see nothing divine in blood sacrifices.
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Reason blood sacrifices was done is cause it's our lifeline. Animals are mighty needed. And is why it was a sacrifice in those days, for food then was not as abundant as it is now. So it was a great deed for one to give something they needed up to our Father. It was more of an act of sincerity rather then the blood itself. If one is willing to give up something important to them to show something, it must be sincere. It's more sincere anyways then just saying "oh lord forgive me". It shows actions behind that statement which shows more effort which shows more sincererity.
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4. I don't believe that God created women as an afterthought from the rib of man. Moreover, the hardcore evidence of evolution does not support that model.
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The hardcore THEORY of evolution does not support this maybe. But is it ironic that women do have one more rib then man does? Do you really think they thought that hard on it to make it look true? You really think they counted particularly the ribs of a person to see if someone had more then the other? Especially at the time when this stuff was originally written, do you think they really had that much intellect to do that form of investigation to try to make this work?
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5. If Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of Good and Evil before they ate from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, then they could not have known that it would be an evil act to each such fruit. So the very story of Adam and Eve's fall from grace is an oxymoron in its own right.
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It's no oxymoron. They weren't punished for being "evil" or anything of such. They were punished for their disobedience. The reason on why it was disobedient is irrelevant. The fact still remains that it was disobedient.
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6. Scientific evidence reveals that death, disease, and all manner of imperfections and natural disasters occurred before mankind appeared on planet Earth. So the charge that mankind's fall from grace is cause of death, evil, and imperfections on Earth is clearly a fictional fable. (in other words, we have every bit as much reason for rejecting the biblical myths as mythology as we have to reject Zeus)
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That is because we don't live in the earth in the same form it was then. Remember Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden. And if you'll read after they were kicked out of the garden, God redid the world in how it was before they ate of the fruit.
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7. The Book of Job flies in the face of everything the bible claims about God. First off, it has Satan asking for God's permission to test Job. That's hardly a disobedient fallen angel, that's more like an extremely obedient hit man.
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Not it's not lol. God didn't tell Satan to test Job, nor did it have anything to do with God. God merely ALLOWED it to happen. So yes it is still a disobedient fallen angel, cause again it wasn't God tempting Job through Satan nor was it God's plan and or idea. Again, our lives of how they are is a war between Satan and God. God allows Satan to tempt us, for again if Satan wasn't there tempting us to do evil actions we wouldn't think to do as such. And if we don't think to do as such there would be nothing to earn for earth would be like in heaven already.
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8. The Book of Job flies in the face of everything the bible claims about God. Secondly, it has God testing Job's loyalty. This flies in the face of the ideal that God already knows what's in the hearts of men. It also flies in the face that a righteous person can trust God.
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God was testing nobody. God was merely allowing Satan to test Job and his family. I feel like a broken record speaking with you, having to repeat myself over and over.
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9. If all sin is equal and all men are sinners, then there would have been no reason for God to save Noah and his family from the flood. Moreover, if God could forgive Noah and his family of their sins, then the idea that Jesus would be needed for to forgive men their sins later would be an oxymoron.
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Nope again. Noah and his family sought forgiveness for their sins and transgressions. They repented of their previous actions and sought after forgiveness for their mistakes. God then forgives them for they sought it out making them perfect. Same thing can be done with anyone and everyone of us. And you forget we are judged by the word and Jesus is the word in the flesh. So yes they needed Jesus to be pleasurable to God just as we do, just at that time Jesus was the word he was not flesh and bone.
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10. There is actual scientific DNA evidence that no world-wide catastrophic flood told of in the story of Noah could have possibly taken place on planet Earth during the time humans roamed the Earth. (so once again, the fable has been shown to have no more merit than the Greek Mythological fables that Gods live on Mt. Olympus)
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Again it is merely a THEORY and or SPECULATION. And we all know theories are nothing more then educated guesses.

The question is: If you believe this statement, why do you waste your time with it?

11. I personally don't feel that there was anything wise in the way that God supposedly handed the Canaanites. I agree this is a personal view. However, if God is said to be wise, then I think God should exhibit wise behavior. To allow people to continue to have offspring for 400 years knowing that they are all sinners and will never change is just plain stupid, IMHO. All God needed to do was to make them sterile and they would have died off within a single generation.
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If God was to make everyone sterile that was a sinner, then the world's population would cease to exist. But by allowing them to reproduce was giving them a fair chance and possibility of changing and looking towards God and his laws. It's called compassion my friend, having faith in someone.
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12. I personally not impressed by a God who commands people not to kill, then presents his followers with a promised land that is occupied and commands them to kill every man, woman, and child, with no mercy. That's an oxymoron too, IMHO. And thus I see no reason to even remotely place any faith in this story being true.
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You're getting this from the old testament. The only reward for sin is death. In the old testament days when the word was just that the word it had to have someone carry out the judgement. So God judged them to be sinners and not worthy of this land and had those people go in and carry out the judgement with killing them, cause AGAIN the only reward for sin is death. Again in the old testament times we are judged by the word, but as the word could not carry out the judgment it was carried out by our peers.
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13. Jesus didn't even agree with the moral values that had been taught in the Torah. On the contrary, he taught moral values that more closely resemble the those of Mahayana Buddhism, which was at it's peak at the time when Jesus supposedly lived.
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Of course he didn't agree with the teachings of the tora. The Tora was the old laws and less we forget Jesus FULLFILLED the old laws. Fulfilled, that means to have completed, finished, having no more power. And he was giving us the new covenant which was not the same as the first cause if it was there would not have been a need to fulfill it in the first place.
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14. Jesus did not claim to be bringing a "New Covenant" as many Christians try to claim. On the contrary the gospels have him clearly stating that he did not come to change the laws, and that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law. So the idea that Jesus brought a "New Covenant" from God is absurd.
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If you include it all Jesus says he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant. The teachings which we've established that did not coincide with the old covenant, was taught through Jesus' teachings. So in terms the teachings of Jesus is the new covenant. It may not have a shiny little title "new covenant" but nevertheless it was a new covenant given to us by Jesus.

Because it leads to ignorance, bigotry, injustice toward non-Christians, potential atrocities and even Holy Wars.

It has historically causes many atrocities, both on large scales as well on for individuals, many of whom were great scientists trying to lead us to true knowledge.

Even today this mythology has people renouncing evolution, and science, and it has people pushing for "prayer in schools" as well as teaching "Creation Theory" as though that merits the same consideration as scientific knowledge.

Face it, a belief in this religion has huge social impact.

Look at what it did to Cowboy. It has him judging me to have 'rejected God', and I'm not even an atheist. It perpetuates so much religious bigotry that it won't even permit respect for other religions. Either confess that Jesus is Lord or you are the enemy of God.

How can a person possibly look upon someone they believe to be the enemy of God and seriously give their views and opinions any merit?

And these same people renounce scientific knowledge in favor of ancient myths?

That, my friend, is a very dangerous combination.

So I speak out against it in the name of humanity and all that is good.

It's not my intention to "bash a religion", although I'm sure that many people see it as that.

It's simply my intention to point out the absurdities in an ancient mythology and offer rational alternatives.

I don't even push atheism.

I'm all for spirituality.

But I'm not for ignorance and judgmental superstitions that renounce scientific knowledge in favor of religious bigotry.

Praising Jesus loses any merit at all when it is being used to renounce truth and knowledge and to pass judgments on the lifestyles and religious beliefs of other people.

I mean if a person wants to be a Christian in their private life, more power to them. But if they're going to try to shove it down the throat of humanity, I'll be there to shove right back.

Count your ribs, and the next time you get a girlfriend count hers.

Let me know what you come up with.

~~~~

I've read all your responses to my concerns.

Yes, you do sound like a broken record. I've heard you state these all before. I wasn't impressed then, and I'm still not impressed. So repeating them obviously isn't doing you any good.

~~~~

I'm still waiting for you to show me where the gospels have Jesus stating that he brought a "New Covenant" from God to mankind and that the "Old Covenant" is no longer in effect?

Sounds like a speculation theory to me, and one that I personally don't buy into.

~~~~

So we're right back at square one.

You can believe in your stories and your interpretations of them.

I'll stick with my spiritual views. My views are not in conflict with themselves, and they are not in conflict with science either. Plus, they make God appear to be far wiser, and nicer, IMHO.

So why should I downgrade my spirituality for yours?

I humbly suggest that you upgrade to mine, if anything.

I mean, just as a suggestion. This way you won't be in conflict with science, and God will be nice.

Women do have 1 less rib then men, count them yourself.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Although approx 1 in every 200 to 500 people of either sex are born with an extra pair of ribs and this abnormality is far more common in females than in males, the average person on the street has 12 pairs of ribs.

Science has verified this over and over through observation using X-rays and cadaver studies. Theologians are just thumping their Bibles on this one.




-Kerry O.