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Topic: For JW Who Believe "Jesus Christ is not God"
MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Wed 09/28/11 12:30 AM Edited by MorningSong on Wed 09/28/11 12:42 AM
Abra...the God you are declining is the God You THINK Him to Be and NOT The God WHO REALLY IS.... Abra.... When you stop TELLING God who you THINK He is..... and INSTEAD, simply ASK God to REVEAL to you Who He REALLY Is, GOD WILL ANSWER ..... SPEEDILY.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Wed 09/28/11 05:13 AM Edited by MorningSong on Wed 09/28/11 06:12 AM
Another word for " born again", is Regeneration. We may define regeneration as follows: Regeneration is a act of God in which HE IMPARTS NEW SPIRITUAL LIFE IN US. This is sometimes called “being born again” (using language from John 3:3–8). Regeneration Is TOTALLY A WORK OF GOD!!! Although we play an active part by believing and receiving Jesus, we play NO active role AT ALL, in the work of REGENERATION. It is instead TOTALLY a WORK OF GOD!!! We see this, for example, when John talks about those to whom CHRIST GAVE POWER TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD—they “WERE BORN, NOT of blood NOR of the WILL of the flesh NOR of the WILL of MAN, BUT OF GOD” !!!(John 1:13). Here John specifies that children of God are those who are “BORN OF GOD” . Meaning.... OUR OWN HUMAN WILL (“the will of man”) does NOT bring about this kind BIRTH ,IN THE LEAST!!! This SOVEREIGN WORK OF GOD in REGENERATION was also predicted in the prophecy of Ezekiel. Through him God promised a time in the future when he would give new spiritual life to his people: "A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU , and a NEW SPIRIT I WILL PUT WITHIN YOU ; and I will TAKE OUT of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU , and CAUSE you to WALK in my STATUTES and be careful to OBSERVE my ORDINANCES." (Ezek. 36:26–27) Petr says, “You have been born ANEW not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.... That word is the good news which was preached to you” (1 Peter 1:23, 25). And James says, “HE CHOSE TO GIVE US BIRTH through the word of truth” (James 1:18 NIV). As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to SUMMON US TO HIMSELF . We who were spiritually DEAD (Eph. 2:1) HAVE BEEN MADE ALIVE TO GOD and have been “BORN AGAIN” (John 3:3, 7; Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13). Jesus says, “The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT” (John 3:8). Our “spirits are alive” to God after regeneration (Rom. 8:10) Before—we were dead to God in trespasses and sins (see Eph. 2:1). “If any one is in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (2 Cor. 5:17). Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he CANNOT enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). Jesus said, “NO ONE can COME TO ME UNLESS the Father who sent me DRAWS him” (John 6:44), and “No one can come to me UNLESS it is GRANTED him by the Father” (John 6:65). In Acts, Luke says of Lydia, “The Lord OPENED her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14). (Notice....First the Lord opened her heart, THEN she was able to give HEED to Paul’s preaching and to RESPOND in faith.) “The man WITHOUT the Spirit (literally, the “natural man”) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14 NIV). “NO ONE understands, NO ONE SEEKS for God” (Rom. 3:11). “But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST”. (Eph. 2:4–5). Paul also says, “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, GOD MADE YOU ALIVE WITH CHRIST ” (Col. 2:13 NIV).8 John says, “Everyone who believes that JESUS IS THE CHRIST is BORN OF GOD ” .(1 John 5:1 NIV).10 “Everyone who LOVES has been BORN of God and KNOWS God” (1 John 4:7 NIV). Here is More on Regenearation(I read thru the following thoroughly, to be sure it lines up with the Word of God): ................................................................ ..............Question: "What is regeneration according to the Bible?"............... Answer: Another word for regeneration is REBIRTH, from which we get the phrase “BORN AGAIN.” To be born again is opposed to, and distinguished from, our first birth. The new birth is a spiritual, holy, and heavenly birth signified by a being made alive in a spiritual sense. Our first birth, on the other hand, was one of spiritual death because of inherited sin. Man in his natural state is “dead in trespasses and sins” until we are “made alive” (regenerated) by Christ when we place our faith in Him (Ephesians 2:1). AFTER regeneration, we begin to see, and hear, and seek after divine things, and to live a life of faith and holiness. Now Christ is formed in the hearts; we are now partakers of the divine nature, having been made new creatures. God, NOT man, is the source of this (Ephesians 2:1, 8). It is NOT by men's works, but by GOD'S OWN WILL AND GOOD PLEASURE. His great love and free gift, His rich grace and abundant mercy, are the CAUSE of it and these attributes of God are displayed in the REGENERATION AND CONVERSION of sinners. Regeneration is part of the "salvation package," if you will, along with sealing (Ephesians 1:14), adoption (Galatians 4:5), reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18-20), and many other salvation concepts. Being born again or BORN FROM ABOVE is parallel to regeneration (John 3:6-7; Ephesians 2:1; 1 Peter 1:23; John 1:13; 1 John 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18). Simply put, regeneration is GOD MAKING A PERSON SPIRITUALLY ALIVE ,a NEW CREATION, as a RESULT of FAITH in Jesus Christ. The reason regeneration is necessary is that prior to salvation , we are degenerate. After salvation we are regenerated. The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1), new life (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17), and eternal sonship (John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26). This regeneration is eternal and begins the process of sanctification wherein we become the people God INTENEDED for us to be (Romans 8:28-30). The Bible is clear that the only means of regeneration is by FAITH IN THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS. NO AMOUNT OD GOOD WORKS OR KEEPING OF THE LAW CAN REGENERATE THE HEART ,which from birth is “deceitful and wicked above all things” (Jeremiah 17:9). This concept of the new birth is UNIQUE to Christianity. No other religion offers a CURE for the total depravity of the human heart, preferring instead to outline an often massive body of works and deeds that must be done to gain favor with God. God has told us, though, that “by works of the law NO human being will be justified in his sight” (Romans 3:20). Total regeneration of the heart is necessary for salvation. Paul explains this concept perfectly in Galatians 2:20: “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” This is true regeneration. Latter portion of post comes from Gotquestions.org

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Wed 09/28/11 05:53 AM Edited by MorningSong on Wed 09/28/11 06:38 AM
AND...ALSO THIS ....... ...............What Is Regeneration (Being Born Again)?............... We all need to understand regeneration, sometimes referred to in the Bible as being "born again." Physical birth is a wonderful thing. There is nothing lovelier than a newborn baby. A new baby is pure and clean and innocent. But what does regeneration really mean, to be born again spiritually? All people have a sinful human nature. We are born alive physically, but dead spiritually. Ephesians 2:1 says, "You were dead in your transgressions and sins." We are born spiritually dead, but God is a Spirit, and quite alive. John 4:24 says, "God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." If we are born spiritually dead, but God is a Spirit, then we can have no fellowship with God. We are separated from God. We have physical life, but no spiritual life. Our soul understands physical things, but we have no spirit to understand spiritual things. We need regeneration. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." The sinful human nature causes spiritual death. Romans 5:12 says, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned." At physical birth, we are identified as a member of the family of our father, Adam. When my children were born, they were brand new, and pure. We need a spiritual birth to make us new and pure. We need a new father. We must be born into God's family. John 3:6 says, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." The divine solution for spiritual birth is to be born again (regeneration). Titus 3:5 says, "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth (being born again) and renewal by the Holy Spirit." We need to be born again, in the Spirit this time. 1 John 5:1 says, "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well." Regeneration makes us twice-born. First, we're born physically, into the family of Adam. Then, through the process of regeneration we're born again, spiritually, into the family of God. What does it mean to be born again? John 3:1-3 says, "Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." John 3:4 says, "'How can a man be born when he is old?' Nicodemus asked. 'Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!'" The spiritually dead person cannot understand spiritual things, so they need to be born again. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." In John 3:5, Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Water is used here as a symbol of the Word of God. Ephesians 5:26 says, "To make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word." We are born again through God's Word. 1 Peter 1:23 says, "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." The water is the Word of God, the gospel. We are cleansed with the cleansing effect of the Word of God. Only faith in the gospel can bring regeneration. Romans 10:17 says, "Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." John 3:6 says, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." Regeneration is a spiritual rebirth. What is the role of the Holy Spirit in regeneration? We are born with a body and soul, but a dead spirit, so we cannot reach or contact God. John 16:7-11 says, "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned." In the process of regeneration, the Holy Spirit acts for our dead human spirit. He brings to our mentality in our soul an understanding and a conviction concerning the gospel. He substitutes for our dead human spirit to clarify the gospel. Romans 3:10-11 says, "As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.'" Again we see our need or regeneration. Hebrews 4:12 says, "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." The Word reveals the need for another birth. The Word reveals our spiritually dead state. The Word reveals that we're under the sentence of eternal death. The Word reveals that there is a rescue awaiting through Jesus Christ. We have to have a spiritual birth. John 3:7 says, "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'" Nicodemus could have known the truth. Ezekiel 36:26-27 says, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." Ezekiel spoke of a new Spirit. John speaks of being born again with a new spirit. John 3:8 says, "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." This spiritual birth is like the wind. We cannot see it, but we can observe its effects. Although regeneration is invisible, it results in a spiritual rebirth. John 3:9-11 says, "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony." Jesus Christ spoke the truth. John 3:12 says, "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" We will not believe until we accept the first step of being born again. We cannot believe unless we accept the first step of being born again. John 3:13 says, "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man." Jesus Christ is God, and only Christ has the unique position of being both God and man. Nicodemus had to trust Him to bring regeneration. John 3:14-15 says, "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." Jesus is referring to Numbers 21:6-9, when the Israelites rebelled. God sent a plague of snakes, and the people were bitten by the snakes. Moses prayed for relief, and God told them to simply look at a bronze snake. They didn't do anything. They just believed God and accepted His truth. 1 Peter 1:18-21 says, "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." The NEW BIRTH IS ENTIRELY A PLAN OF GRACE FROM GOD. God the Father created this plan of grace, and it includes regeneration. James 1:18 says, "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created. God the Son provided this plan of grace. John 3:16-18 says, ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Whoever believes in Jesus Christ shall have eternal life through regeneration. God the Holy Spirit performs this plan through grace. Titus 3:5 says, "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." GOD DOES THIS, NOT US. Since this plan is all of grace, OUR part is to simply ACCEPT it. We DON'T DO ANYTHING to EARN it. We just BELIEVE the truth. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ shall be born again and have eternal life. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." Whoever believes in Jesus Christ shall have eternal life by being made alive through the spiritual rebirth of regeneration. What are the results of regeneration? When we are born again, we are given the eternal life of God Himself. When we are born again, we receive a live human spirit. When we are born again, we enter into God's family. God becomes your Father, and we become His child. We become a joint heir with Jesus Christ. When we are born again, we are made a new creation (regenerated). 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" Whoever believes(with the heart) in Jesus Christ shall have eternal life. If you have never accepted the truth of regeneration, do it now. It's your choice. Choose life over death. Owen Weber 2008 .................... read romans 10:9 http://www.christiandataresources.com/regeneration.htm

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Wed 09/28/11 07:31 AM
Abra...the God you are declining is the God You THINK Him to Be and NOT The God WHO REALLY IS.... Abra.... When you stop TELLING God who you THINK He is..... and INSTEAD, simply ASK God to REVEAL to you Who He REALLY Is, GOD WILL ANSWER ..... SPEEDILY. But isn't that precisely what I've done? I've STOPPED telling God what he is like. It's these Christian fundamentalists who keep trying to tell me what God is like via the BIBLE! It's the BIBLE that claims what God is like, NOT ME! ~~~~ Also, I'm not telling God what he/she/it is like. What I'm trying to tell people on these forums is why I don't believe that the ancient Hebrews had a clue what God is like. It's the ancient Hebrew description of God that I don't like. If that description is wrong, then I rest my case. All I keep doing is pointing out why I feel that it necessarily has to be wrong. It has God doing all sorts of things that, IMHO, are neither wise, nor righteous. The Christians tell me to READ THE BIBLE. Fine, but when I do that I DO NOT LIKE the God I read about. So if this book is so far OFF from what God is really like, then why bother reading it? And why do you keep posting verses from that book in my face, if you don't want me to think that God is like that? The Bible clearly has God punishing women with painful and sorrowful childbirth for the original sin of Eve. I personally think that's disgusting and totally uncalled for. If God isn't like this, then perhaps the Biblical account of God is wrong? The Bible clearly has God supporting male-chauvinism and clearly degrades women to second-class citizens. In fact, this was part of Eve's original punishment. Like as if cursing women with painful childbirth wasn't enough. This is what this BOOK CLAIMS that God is like. Along with being appeased by blood sacrifices of either animals or, in the case of Jesus, by his very own son. When I read these Hebrew accounts of "God", all I can tell you is that IF GOD IS LIKE THAT then I don't want any parts of living under the rule of this God for all of eternity. Now, all the stuff in the Bible is WRONG, and God really isn't like that, then fine. Then I'm not rejecting the REAL GOD. I'm merely rejecting the God depicted in the Bible. Which would obviously be a false notion of God if God isn't truly like that. In fact, isn't that what I have been holding to be the TRUTH all along. I don't fee that I'm "rejecting any REAL God", because I stand firm on my belief that the Biblical account of "God" has no more merit than the Greek accounts of Zeus. ~~~~~ You tell me not to tell God what God should be like. Well, in fact I don't. I believe in Mysticism, and in Mysticism God is s "mystery" (that's why it's called Mysticism). They hold out that God is unknowable and they don't try to claim what God is like. However, they do speculate on various things about the nature of reality. And all that is based on what we observe around us. But none of that demands that God curses people unfairly, or that God will be unduly angry with people who refuse to "obey" God. In fact, God hasn't given any commandments to "obey". On the contrary, the Mystics believe that God communicates to us through our feelings and intuition. God will let you know whether something is good for you or not good for you instantaneously in the moment. There is no need for any written set of rules. And what might be right or wrong for you may not be the same for someone else. In fact this is why it's not good to judge other people's actions or behaviors, because as an individual mortal human we have no way of knowing whether their behavior is right for them or not. Unless of course they are obviously harming an innocent non-consenting individual. There are cases when we can recognize clearly wrong behavior. So I don't put God in a box. It's the Christians, and the Abrahamic religions in general that want to put God in a box. In fact, the "box" they want to put God in is their dogma. ~~~~~ It's a man-made falsehood that God would ever say to someone, "Either agree to become my eternal obedient slave or I'll cast you into eternal damnation". That whole ideology was created for the purpose of giving one RELIGION clout over all other religions. Either surrender to OUR GOD, or you'll be branded a heathen! PLUS God himself will cast you into eternal damnation! No "REAL GOD" would be so crude and ignorant. ~~~~~ It is said that you can tell truly divine knowledge by it fruit. Well, any doctrine that claims that God will be mean and cruel to people just because they aren't interested in becoming his obedient slave for all of eternity has truly rotten fruit. Any truly righteous supreme being would give people a choice, and there would be a way to simply say, "Thank you for the offer but I'm not interested" without the God getting all demonic and casting the person into eternal damnation. Christianity, and the Abrahamic religions truly don't allow for this possibility at all. There is no way to "politely decline" the God of Christianity. You either cower down to becoming his eternal obedient slave, or you'll be cast into eternal damnation. This has to be a MAN-MADE religion, because there is not RIGHTEOUS way out of it. The religion is designed to make sure that anyone who rejects the RELIGION will be DAMNED. That is the failure of these religions. This is the TELL-TALE sign that these religions are nothing more than the arrogant creations of men who are trying to put unreasonable FEAR into everyone and anyone who might not be interesting in supporting their religion. Fail to join and support our religion and God will HATE you and be exceedingly MEAN to you. Then you turn to them and say, "But can I not simply politely decline the offer peacefully?" They come back with, "NO! You either join our religion and support our religious bigotries or God will HATE YOU FOREVER!" "And you'll NEVER have a second chance to change the outcome of that CHOICE!" "Join our religion or be DAMNED!" There is no other CHOICE available! That is so totally ungodly and unrighteous that it should be crystal clear to anyone that these kinds of religions did not come from any God. Religions that try to PRESSURE people into supporting them lest they face the WRATH of God, are indeed man-made CULTS. That's all there is to it MorningSong. And the Hebrew Scriptures are indeed such a man-made religion that renounces all non-believers to be "Heathens" who were "Without excuse" for not believing and worshiping this God that you cannot even politely decline. There's simply no way to politely decline the supposed "gifts" that this God supposedly offers. Either accept this "GIFT" of becoming totally obedient to this God for eternity, or be DAMNED! There is something grossly WRONG with that whole picture don't you think?

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Wed 09/28/11 08:03 AM
Abra....God doesn't expect you to do a darn thing, if you don't believe. God knows that NONE of us can believe on our own anyway, except He DRAW us first......so rest now..ok? Abra.....God does NOT beat us over the head with His Word, or Condemn us!!! He is NOT a God of Condemnation.....so if anything or anyone( myself included), ever make you feel condemned, RUN!!! Ok? Go write a new song..... and have a greay day, Abra. Gotta run now....

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Wed 09/28/11 01:02 PM
Go write a new song..... and have a greay day, Abra. Ok, here's my new song, it's called Poetry and Music: Poetry and Music Will lighten up your load Gotta sing your lyrics When you're rid'in down the road Lighten up! Lighten up! Don’t be down Write em up! Write em up! Sing out loud Awake your soul Let your feelings fill your mind Set your worries free Till your thoughts and rhythm combine Let it sprout! Let it sprout! Melodiously Sing it out! Sing it out! Set it free Realize your Dream In the lyrics that you write It's your living stream The winding river of your life Let it flow! Let it flow! It's your living spirit Let it grow! Let it grow! Let the whole world hear it! Poetry and Music Let your worries go Poetry and Music let the whole world know Poetry and Music Realize your dream Poetry and Music With a lyrical theme Poetry and Music set the world aglow Poetry and Music Let your spirit flow Let your spirit flow Let your spirit flow - Let your spirit flow Music mp3 sound file here: http://users.csonline.net/designer/music/poetry&music.mp3

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Wed 09/28/11 06:13 PM
NICE!!!!! I'm Listening Again....and Singing Right Along !!!! God Bless You , Abra!!!!

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/28/11 07:10 PM
I can copy and paste too.. from www.eliyah.com In this study we will discuss what the scriptures have to say about the true nature of the Father, Yahweh. And His Son, the Messiah and our Savior, Yahushua. Some want to tell us that we worship a trinity. When going furthur into this subject with one who believes a trinity, they often like to explain away the contradictions with saying: "It's just one of the great mysteries of the faith" A mystery indeed, it has never made any sense to me. 3 is 1 yet 1 is all three yet all 3 are 1 and 1 is all 3? Most of the basis of it is concerning the use of the title "Elohim", translated "God". The word "Elohim" is the most overused word in trying to prove the Trinity. Or perhaps the common english translation "God". I came to understand that this word "Elohim" does have other uses than 'deity'. It can also mean a "judge" or a "ruler". This is also true of the word 'Theos' in greek. In fact, one of the translations translated "theos" as 'ruler'. Their high trust in this word can be refuted if you understand that Elohim is a title that describes Yahweh just as the word "King" or "Master" describes Yahweh. It is not really a crown of some sort, as many Christians would say. It is not such a proprietary thing to be called "Elohim". It is true that there is only one Elohim. Just as there is really only one Master. But this word is also used to describe man... Psalms 29:1 - Give unto YAHWEH, O ye mighty, give unto YAHWEH glory and strength. "Mighty" is "El" in Hebrew (which is the singular form of Elohim). There is also one that Yahushua pointed out.. as we will get into later. The word is also used to describe men, angels and yes, Yahushua also. Yahushua is very worthy of this title "Elohim" but the common reasoning is: The Father is "God" The Son is "God The Holy Spirit is "God" Thus they must be triune? We will examine this in light of scripture. They also further conclude that they are all co-equal. This too we will examine in light of scripture. Scripturally, it is certain that Father Yahweh is supreme and above all things. But all things, all power and authority have been given to Yahushua. Father Yahweh is the giver of all life, the source of all things. From HIM all things flow. All life, all love, all Spirit. It is written Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one: I believe in this scripture, Yahweh is definitely ONE. What is the meaning of "One" in this verse? In Hebrew, it is the word "Echad". I believe that Yahushua also used "Echad" in His prayer: John 17:20 - Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Can we be one as Yahweh and Yahushua are one? Can we be one with them? Yes. Does this mean we are all co-equal? No. Father Yahweh is above all. This verse alone wipes out the trinity concept. It is not one as in a 'number', but one in unity of thought and will and purpose. When our way is Yahweh's way...we are one with Him. Does this mean that we are equal to Him? Not even close. So we establish firmly oneness does not have to mean equality and it does not have to mean one as in a number. There is no disunity within Him. There are no disagreements between Yahushua and Yahweh. They are one in purpose and in thought. And we can share that oneness with them, HalleluYah! Now the very essence of the word "Father" is one that describes a giver of life. Yahushua referred to Father Yahweh as such as do we. One should not ascribe the title "Father" to one who hasn't created them. The very fact that Yahushua calls Him "Father" shows that His Father is His creator. Proverbs 30:4 - Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Here is an example of the Son being mentioned even in the Tanakh or Old Testament. Yahushua said: John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true Elohim, and Yahushua the Messiah, whom thou hast sent. Yahushua called Him the only true Elohim. Some might say that this was Yahushua speaking before He was glorified and He is only speaking from His earthly state. This is human reasoning, not found in scripture. The Trinitarians especially like to say that Yahushua didn't really mean this as an eternal concept. But what Yahweh says thru Yahushua endures forever. They say that it was just for that time when He was on earth. We need to be on the lookout for excuses to excuse away scripture! What did Yahushua call His Father AFTER His resurrection and ascension? His co-equal? Revelations 3:12 - "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My Elohim, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My Elohim and the name of the city of My Elohim, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My Elohim. And I will write on him My new name. No, Father Yahweh is 4 times STILL His Elohim. Therefore it has not changed, Father Yahweh is still the Elohim of Yahushua and therefore greater than He, just as Yahushua said. John 14:28 - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. What has changed is that Yahweh exalted Yahushua above all. Yahushua said it so plain: John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. All things are given TO Yahushua by the Father and Yahweh is greater than all. I do not take honor from Yahushua in saying this. Yahushua said it Himself! Matthew 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YAHWEH: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Even Yahushua had to recognize that any goodness He had...came from the Father. Therefore, I do not take honor from Yahushua in saying this. Yahushua is worthy of all praise, honor and yes.. "Worship". In this I will elaborate later but for now let's consider the position of Yahushua after all things are completed. After death is defeated and we are with Him. Will he be co-equal to the Father? Let's see: 1Corinthians 15:20 - But now is the Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in the Messiah shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: the Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are the Messiah's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to YAHWEH, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. Who put all things under Yahushua? Who is this One who is "excepted"? Who is excepted? The Father is excepted, who is greater than all. He is the one who put all things under Yahushua because He is above all. Continuing.. 1Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that YAHWEH may be all in all. So Yahushua will be subject to Father Yahweh in a future time..even as now. And this is the blessing of order. 1Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is the Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of the Messiah is YAHWEH. Very clear, is it not? Now let's look into this matter of worship. Some dualists say that one should not worship Yahushua. They even say that if you do worship Yahushua, you are committing idolatry. Let's examine this in light of scripture Matthew 28:16 - Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Yahushua had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Yes, the disciples worshipped Yahushua. And Yahushua accepted such and did not forbid them. Why? Let's look at what He said Matthew 28:18 - And Yahushua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. All power is GIVEN to Yahushua in heaven and earth, HalleluYah! Yahushua is WORTHY for He overcame the world and in Him there is LIFE and Salvation! Now it is not unusual for one to worship somebody who represents the kingdom of Yahweh. Men worshipped David. It is true, scripture says that men worshipped David and David said nothing. David was the anointed of Yahweh. The word anointed is "Mashiach" or Messiah. Now David was Not Yahweh but he represented Yahweh's kingdom of Israel. 2Samuel 14:4 - And when the woman of Tekoah spake to the king, she fell on her face to the ground, and did obeisance, and said, Help, O king. 5 - And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, I am indeed a widow woman, and mine husband is dead. Here, the word used for obeisance is also translated 'Worship' 99 other times in scripture. Even in Exodus 20 in the Ten Commandments we find this same original Hebrew word used. Consider also: Revelations 3:9 - "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. Consider also the psalm: Psalms 45:6 - Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. This is a psalm speaking of Yahushua the Messiah. It is quoted as such in the book of Hebrews: Hebrews 1:8 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. Notice that the Son is called "Elohim" here. Continuing.. Psalms 45:7 - Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore Elohim, thy Elohim, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Here again, Yahushua's Elohim is none other than Father Yahweh. The verse clarifies which Elohim. HIS (Yahushua's) Elohim..the Father. This is consistent with the verses we examined previously where Yahushua calls the Father His Elohim. Psalms 45:8 - All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. Now this is an allegory of Yahushua and His assembly much like Song of Solomon. Let's continue to read this Psalms 45:9 - Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Master; and worship thou him. This shows why we worship Yahushua, He is our Master and represents Yahweh and His kingdom. None of this means that we worship a trinity. There are a few verses...that many would try to show to support the Trinity doctrine. Many of these scriptures happen to name 3 things in one sentence such as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are used extensively by "trinity believers". But those scriptures that name 3 things (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) do not prove what the position or role of the Father, Son or Holy Spirit is. It does not make them co-equal. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were mentioned many times in the Law and Prophets. Are they triune also? Peter, James and John are three names often used together in the NT, but this does not make them 3 in 1. Let's look at one scripture in particular.. Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Many would say this proves the trinity but most of them have no idea what this verse means. Consider how the disciples understood it in the book of Acts: Acts 2:38 - Then Kepha said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yahushua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For baptism do we have 2 conflicting scriptures? The first scripture said we should baptize in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The second said showed that they baptized in the Son's name only. Christian scholars have argued for centuries over this but this is where those who know the true name of the Son become enlightened with a wonderful truth. Yahushua means "YAHweh is Salvation". Within the name of the Son we have also the name of the Father "Yah" or "Yahu". This lines up with what Yahushua said here: John 5:43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Both literally and spiritually He knew that He came in His Father's name. Therefore within the name of the Son, we also have the name of the Father. Now what about the name of the Holy Spirit? John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Yahushua. So if we baptize in the name of Yahushua we have within His name the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore Yahushua is rightly the name for baptism. The disciples understood what He meant in Mat 28:19 and shortly after in Acts 2:38 baptized in Yahushua's name So He certainly didn't mean Trinity. Now let's look at Philippians: Philippians 2:1 - If there be therefore any consolation in the Messiah, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 - Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. In lowliness of mind. Like whom? Philippians 2:4 - Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in the Messiah Yahushua: 6 - Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with YAHWEH: Now here is a clear example of the King James Version bias for the trinity. Are we to have the mind that it isn't robbery to be equal with Father Yahweh? After examining the original language it is very clear that verse 6 is a mistranslation. The NIV (amazingly) clears up the text: Phil 2:6 (NIV) Who, being in very nature Elohim, did not consider equality with Elohim something to be grasped, It means just the opposite! Look it up for yourself. Other translations such as the American Standard, New American Standard, Revised Standard and others agree. Yahushua did not think that equality with Yahweh was something even to be grasped. The context screams out this correct translation with phrases like 'The form of a servant" "Made Himself of no reputation" "Let this mind be in you," etc. Continuing: Philippians 2:7 - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Very clear when translated rightly. Continuing.. Philippians 2:9 - Wherefore YAHWEH also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Who is greater, one who has the authority to exalt or the one being exalted? Philippians 2:10 - That at the name of Yahushua every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 - And that every tongue should confess that Yahushua the Messiah is Master, to the glory of YAHWEH the Father. If I read verse 11 correctly... If we lift up Yahushua, We are lifting up the Father...if we praise Yahushua , we are praising the Father..it is all to the glory of Yahweh the Father! Matthew 28:18 - And Yahushua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. All things GIVEN to Him! By whom? Who could be greater? Father Yahweh, the source of all life and love and Spirit. Here is another misunderstood verse: John 5:14 - Afterward Yahushua findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 15 - The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Yahushua, which had made him whole. 16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Yahushua, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 - But Yahushua answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that Elohim was his Father, making himself equal with Elohim. Now here we have 2 accusations: 1. He broke the Sabbath 2. He was making himself equal with Elohim Neither were true. Yahushua did not break the Sabbath. We know that, or He would have sinned and He would have not been the lamb without blemish. Therefore, these were accusations from the false leaders and not statements of doctrine (as some would claim). John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 - Yahushua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself Elohim. Here is the accusation again. Here would have been the opportunity for Yahushua to show them if He was Elohim in the sense of a deity. But rather, Yahushua downplays the greatness of such a title: John 10:34 - Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim? Is Yahushua not downplaying the greatness of being called "Elohim" just as I am in this study? It is truth that this word Elohim is used in reference to Angels, judges, men and yes, Yahushua also. This is what Yahushua pointed out to them and it is what I point out to others. But this word is never used in sense of the "the source of all things, the giver of all life" to any other thing but Father Yahweh Himself. Yahushua defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'. This shows that they had a false concept of what "Elohim" means, just as do leaders of today. Yahushua clearly defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'. John 10:35 - If he called them elohim, unto whom the word of YAHWEH came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of Elohim? 37 - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. The source of all life, Father YAHWEH...is IN Him. But He ISN'T equal to Him. Yet, He IS worthy of praise and worship because He represents Yahweh and His power and all honor we give Him, we are giving to Yahweh. John 8:13 - The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. 14 - Yahushua answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. 15 - Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 - And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 - It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 - I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. So two bear witness. Now I ask, where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? John 8:19 - Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Yahushua answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. Isn't that the third witness, if the trinity is truth? The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of Yahweh. It is His Spirit. The Spirit proceeds from Yahweh the Father. John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: The Holy Spirit is that Spirit that proceeds from the Father, no wonder it is Holy! John 8:42 - Yahushua said unto them, If Elohim were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from Elohim; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. See, Yahushua also comes from the Father. I think there is a pattern here? That ALL Things come from the Father! 1Corinthians 8:5 - For though there be that are called mighty ones, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be mighty ones many, and masters many,) 6 - But to us there is but one Elohim, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahushua the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by him. Is there not a distinction here in the position of the Father compared to who the Son is? The Father is the source of all things and He does all things through Yahushua the Messiah by His Spirit. There is one Elohim and one Master and I don't see a separate Holy Spirit here! It is Yahweh's Spirit. For the Father is like the "generator", the Holy Spirit is like the "Electricity" and the Son is the wires, the Way to The Father. And we? We are the light of the world. May Yahweh's Spirit dwell in us to reveal to us His ways and His truth.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/28/11 07:39 PM
I can copy and paste too.. from www.eliyah.com In this study we will discuss what the scriptures have to say about the true nature of the Father, Yahweh. And His Son, the Messiah and our Savior, Yahushua. Some want to tell us that we worship a trinity. When going furthur into this subject with one who believes a trinity, they often like to explain away the contradictions with saying: "It's just one of the great mysteries of the faith" A mystery indeed, it has never made any sense to me. 3 is 1 yet 1 is all three yet all 3 are 1 and 1 is all 3? Most of the basis of it is concerning the use of the title "Elohim", translated "God". The word "Elohim" is the most overused word in trying to prove the Trinity. Or perhaps the common english translation "God". I came to understand that this word "Elohim" does have other uses than 'deity'. It can also mean a "judge" or a "ruler". This is also true of the word 'Theos' in greek. In fact, one of the translations translated "theos" as 'ruler'. Their high trust in this word can be refuted if you understand that Elohim is a title that describes Yahweh just as the word "King" or "Master" describes Yahweh. It is not really a crown of some sort, as many Christians would say. It is not such a proprietary thing to be called "Elohim". It is true that there is only one Elohim. Just as there is really only one Master. But this word is also used to describe man... Psalms 29:1 - Give unto YAHWEH, O ye mighty, give unto YAHWEH glory and strength. "Mighty" is "El" in Hebrew (which is the singular form of Elohim). There is also one that Yahushua pointed out.. as we will get into later. The word is also used to describe men, angels and yes, Yahushua also. Yahushua is very worthy of this title "Elohim" but the common reasoning is: The Father is "God" The Son is "God The Holy Spirit is "God" Thus they must be triune? We will examine this in light of scripture. They also further conclude that they are all co-equal. This too we will examine in light of scripture. Scripturally, it is certain that Father Yahweh is supreme and above all things. But all things, all power and authority have been given to Yahushua. Father Yahweh is the giver of all life, the source of all things. From HIM all things flow. All life, all love, all Spirit. It is written Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one: I believe in this scripture, Yahweh is definitely ONE. What is the meaning of "One" in this verse? In Hebrew, it is the word "Echad". I believe that Yahushua also used "Echad" in His prayer: John 17:20 - Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Can we be one as Yahweh and Yahushua are one? Can we be one with them? Yes. Does this mean we are all co-equal? No. Father Yahweh is above all. This verse alone wipes out the trinity concept. It is not one as in a 'number', but one in unity of thought and will and purpose. When our way is Yahweh's way...we are one with Him. Does this mean that we are equal to Him? Not even close. So we establish firmly oneness does not have to mean equality and it does not have to mean one as in a number. There is no disunity within Him. There are no disagreements between Yahushua and Yahweh. They are one in purpose and in thought. And we can share that oneness with them, HalleluYah! Now the very essence of the word "Father" is one that describes a giver of life. Yahushua referred to Father Yahweh as such as do we. One should not ascribe the title "Father" to one who hasn't created them. The very fact that Yahushua calls Him "Father" shows that His Father is His creator. Proverbs 30:4 - Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Here is an example of the Son being mentioned even in the Tanakh or Old Testament. Yahushua said: John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true Elohim, and Yahushua the Messiah, whom thou hast sent. Yahushua called Him the only true Elohim. Some might say that this was Yahushua speaking before He was glorified and He is only speaking from His earthly state. This is human reasoning, not found in scripture. The Trinitarians especially like to say that Yahushua didn't really mean this as an eternal concept. But what Yahweh says thru Yahushua endures forever. They say that it was just for that time when He was on earth. We need to be on the lookout for excuses to excuse away scripture! What did Yahushua call His Father AFTER His resurrection and ascension? His co-equal? Revelations 3:12 - "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My Elohim, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My Elohim and the name of the city of My Elohim, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My Elohim. And I will write on him My new name. No, Father Yahweh is 4 times STILL His Elohim. Therefore it has not changed, Father Yahweh is still the Elohim of Yahushua and therefore greater than He, just as Yahushua said. John 14:28 - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. What has changed is that Yahweh exalted Yahushua above all. Yahushua said it so plain: John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. All things are given TO Yahushua by the Father and Yahweh is greater than all. I do not take honor from Yahushua in saying this. Yahushua said it Himself! Matthew 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YAHWEH: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Even Yahushua had to recognize that any goodness He had...came from the Father. Therefore, I do not take honor from Yahushua in saying this. Yahushua is worthy of all praise, honor and yes.. "Worship". In this I will elaborate later but for now let's consider the position of Yahushua after all things are completed. After death is defeated and we are with Him. Will he be co-equal to the Father? Let's see: 1Corinthians 15:20 - But now is the Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in the Messiah shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: the Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are the Messiah's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to YAHWEH, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. Who put all things under Yahushua? Who is this One who is "excepted"? Who is excepted? The Father is excepted, who is greater than all. He is the one who put all things under Yahushua because He is above all. Continuing.. 1Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that YAHWEH may be all in all. So Yahushua will be subject to Father Yahweh in a future time..even as now. And this is the blessing of order. 1Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is the Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of the Messiah is YAHWEH. Very clear, is it not? Now let's look into this matter of worship. Some dualists say that one should not worship Yahushua. They even say that if you do worship Yahushua, you are committing idolatry. Let's examine this in light of scripture Matthew 28:16 - Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Yahushua had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Yes, the disciples worshipped Yahushua. And Yahushua accepted such and did not forbid them. Why? Let's look at what He said Matthew 28:18 - And Yahushua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. All power is GIVEN to Yahushua in heaven and earth, HalleluYah! Yahushua is WORTHY for He overcame the world and in Him there is LIFE and Salvation! Now it is not unusual for one to worship somebody who represents the kingdom of Yahweh. Men worshipped David. It is true, scripture says that men worshipped David and David said nothing. David was the anointed of Yahweh. The word anointed is "Mashiach" or Messiah. Now David was Not Yahweh but he represented Yahweh's kingdom of Israel. 2Samuel 14:4 - And when the woman of Tekoah spake to the king, she fell on her face to the ground, and did obeisance, and said, Help, O king. 5 - And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, I am indeed a widow woman, and mine husband is dead. Here, the word used for obeisance is also translated 'Worship' 99 other times in scripture. Even in Exodus 20 in the Ten Commandments we find this same original Hebrew word used. Consider also: Revelations 3:9 - "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. Consider also the psalm: Psalms 45:6 - Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. This is a psalm speaking of Yahushua the Messiah. It is quoted as such in the book of Hebrews: Hebrews 1:8 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. Notice that the Son is called "Elohim" here. Continuing.. Psalms 45:7 - Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore Elohim, thy Elohim, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Here again, Yahushua's Elohim is none other than Father Yahweh. The verse clarifies which Elohim. HIS (Yahushua's) Elohim..the Father. This is consistent with the verses we examined previously where Yahushua calls the Father His Elohim. Psalms 45:8 - All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. Now this is an allegory of Yahushua and His assembly much like Song of Solomon. Let's continue to read this Psalms 45:9 - Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Master; and worship thou him. This shows why we worship Yahushua, He is our Master and represents Yahweh and His kingdom. None of this means that we worship a trinity. There are a few verses...that many would try to show to support the Trinity doctrine. Many of these scriptures happen to name 3 things in one sentence such as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are used extensively by "trinity believers". But those scriptures that name 3 things (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) do not prove what the position or role of the Father, Son or Holy Spirit is. It does not make them co-equal. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were mentioned many times in the Law and Prophets. Are they triune also? Peter, James and John are three names often used together in the NT, but this does not make them 3 in 1. Let's look at one scripture in particular.. Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Many would say this proves the trinity but most of them have no idea what this verse means. Consider how the disciples understood it in the book of Acts: Acts 2:38 - Then Kepha said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yahushua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For baptism do we have 2 conflicting scriptures? The first scripture said we should baptize in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The second said showed that they baptized in the Son's name only. Christian scholars have argued for centuries over this but this is where those who know the true name of the Son become enlightened with a wonderful truth. Yahushua means "YAHweh is Salvation". Within the name of the Son we have also the name of the Father "Yah" or "Yahu". This lines up with what Yahushua said here: John 5:43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Both literally and spiritually He knew that He came in His Father's name. Therefore within the name of the Son, we also have the name of the Father. Now what about the name of the Holy Spirit? John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Yahushua. So if we baptize in the name of Yahushua we have within His name the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore Yahushua is rightly the name for baptism. The disciples understood what He meant in Mat 28:19 and shortly after in Acts 2:38 baptized in Yahushua's name So He certainly didn't mean Trinity. Now let's look at Philippians: Philippians 2:1 - If there be therefore any consolation in the Messiah, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 - Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. In lowliness of mind. Like whom? Philippians 2:4 - Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in the Messiah Yahushua: 6 - Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with YAHWEH: Now here is a clear example of the King James Version bias for the trinity. Are we to have the mind that it isn't robbery to be equal with Father Yahweh? After examining the original language it is very clear that verse 6 is a mistranslation. The NIV (amazingly) clears up the text: Phil 2:6 (NIV) Who, being in very nature Elohim, did not consider equality with Elohim something to be grasped, It means just the opposite! Look it up for yourself. Other translations such as the American Standard, New American Standard, Revised Standard and others agree. Yahushua did not think that equality with Yahweh was something even to be grasped. The context screams out this correct translation with phrases like 'The form of a servant" "Made Himself of no reputation" "Let this mind be in you," etc. Continuing: Philippians 2:7 - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Very clear when translated rightly. Continuing.. Philippians 2:9 - Wherefore YAHWEH also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Who is greater, one who has the authority to exalt or the one being exalted? Philippians 2:10 - That at the name of Yahushua every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 - And that every tongue should confess that Yahushua the Messiah is Master, to the glory of YAHWEH the Father. If I read verse 11 correctly... If we lift up Yahushua, We are lifting up the Father...if we praise Yahushua , we are praising the Father..it is all to the glory of Yahweh the Father! Matthew 28:18 - And Yahushua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. All things GIVEN to Him! By whom? Who could be greater? Father Yahweh, the source of all life and love and Spirit. Here is another misunderstood verse: John 5:14 - Afterward Yahushua findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 15 - The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Yahushua, which had made him whole. 16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Yahushua, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 - But Yahushua answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that Elohim was his Father, making himself equal with Elohim. Now here we have 2 accusations: 1. He broke the Sabbath 2. He was making himself equal with Elohim Neither were true. Yahushua did not break the Sabbath. We know that, or He would have sinned and He would have not been the lamb without blemish. Therefore, these were accusations from the false leaders and not statements of doctrine (as some would claim). John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 - Yahushua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself Elohim. Here is the accusation again. Here would have been the opportunity for Yahushua to show them if He was Elohim in the sense of a deity. But rather, Yahushua downplays the greatness of such a title: John 10:34 - Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim? Is Yahushua not downplaying the greatness of being called "Elohim" just as I am in this study? It is truth that this word Elohim is used in reference to Angels, judges, men and yes, Yahushua also. This is what Yahushua pointed out to them and it is what I point out to others. But this word is never used in sense of the "the source of all things, the giver of all life" to any other thing but Father Yahweh Himself. Yahushua defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'. This shows that they had a false concept of what "Elohim" means, just as do leaders of today. Yahushua clearly defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'. John 10:35 - If he called them elohim, unto whom the word of YAHWEH came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of Elohim? 37 - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. The source of all life, Father YAHWEH...is IN Him. But He ISN'T equal to Him. Yet, He IS worthy of praise and worship because He represents Yahweh and His power and all honor we give Him, we are giving to Yahweh. John 8:13 - The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. 14 - Yahushua answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. 15 - Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 - And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 - It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 - I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. So two bear witness. Now I ask, where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? John 8:19 - Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Yahushua answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. Isn't that the third witness, if the trinity is truth? The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of Yahweh. It is His Spirit. The Spirit proceeds from Yahweh the Father. John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: The Holy Spirit is that Spirit that proceeds from the Father, no wonder it is Holy! John 8:42 - Yahushua said unto them, If Elohim were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from Elohim; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. See, Yahushua also comes from the Father. I think there is a pattern here? That ALL Things come from the Father! 1Corinthians 8:5 - For though there be that are called mighty ones, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be mighty ones many, and masters many,) 6 - But to us there is but one Elohim, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahushua the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by him. Is there not a distinction here in the position of the Father compared to who the Son is? The Father is the source of all things and He does all things through Yahushua the Messiah by His Spirit. There is one Elohim and one Master and I don't see a separate Holy Spirit here! It is Yahweh's Spirit. For the Father is like the "generator", the Holy Spirit is like the "Electricity" and the Son is the wires, the Way to The Father. And we? We are the light of the world. May Yahweh's Spirit dwell in us to reveal to us His ways and His truth. Very very nice post.

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Wed 09/28/11 08:01 PM
Hi Miles, I read your entire post. I have no problem with anything you've posted. In fact, everything you've posted is actually taking the view from "inside" the religion. In other words, you're trying to decipher what the authors of these texts were actually attempting to say, or what they believed. I have no doubt that the authors of these texts believed that Jesus (or Yahushua) was indeed the messiah. There's no question about that, they clearly make extreme arguments for this, and really go out of their way to proclaim this to be the truth. However, from my perspective, all of their writings are indeed biased by their belief and agenda to make out that Jesus (or Yahushua) was indeed the messiah. That's clearly the goal of their writings. There's no question about that. In fact, that's the very reason those writings became the basis of these scriptures. These are the "rumors" that are being held out as the "gospel truth". However, as you well know I personally don't buy into that conclusion and I see these writings as strongly tainted by these conclusions, which I am not convinced of. In your post you posted the following: Miles wrote: John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 - Yahushua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself Elohim. Here is the accusation again. Here would have been the opportunity for Yahushua to show them if He was Elohim in the sense of a deity. But rather, Yahushua downplays the greatness of such a title: John 10:34 - Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim? Is Yahushua not downplaying the greatness of being called "Elohim" just as I am in this study? It is truth that this word Elohim is used in reference to Angels, judges, men and yes, Yahushua also. This is what Yahushua pointed out to them and it is what I point out to others. But this word is never used in sense of the "the source of all things, the giver of all life" to any other thing but Father Yahweh Himself. Yahushua defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'. This shows that they had a false concept of what "Elohim" means, just as do leaders of today. Yahushua clearly defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'. This is one place where I feel that Jesus (or Yahushua), was actually rejecting the idea that he was claiming to be anything special and he was actually decreeing that he is not claiming to be any different from anyone else. Jesus (or Yahushua) was being accused of blaspheme here. And his defense against those charges was to point to the Torah (which he referred to as There Law (not God's law), and show where even their scriptures recognize that men are God (or Elohim). Which is the Buddhist view. All are God. Buddhism is basically Pantheism and that's precisely what Pantheism means, "All are God". Also, there is basically a flaw in the printing of the Biblical verses that truly irks me. As you point out is states that Jesus says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim?" (or Ye are Gods). Jesus (or Yahushua), was not claiming that HE had said this, like as if the Torah represents His Word, on the contrary, if you look up the verse that Jesus (or Yahushua) was referring to it actually states right in the Torah, "I have said, Ye are Gods", (or Ye are Elohim). Moreover, it makes no sense to suggest that Jesus was speaking about earthly judges, kings, or rulers, or anything like that. That wouldn't make sense in this context. Jesus was using this as a defense against charges of blaspheme. Therefore it would make no sense as a "defense against blaspheme" to simply suggest that other men are mere mortal judges, etc, when he is being charged with proclaiming to be something special when he states that He and the Father are One. No, no, no, that makes no sense at all. In order for this to have been a "defense against charges of blaspheme" Jesus would have had to been implying that ALL ARE SONS OF GOD, and that he was not making any special claim about himself. If that's not what he had meant, then it would not have been a "Defense against the charges of blaspheme". It could only be a defense if he was indeed attempting to imply that everyone is equally God and that he is not claiming to be anything special. I firmly believe that this particular episode in these stories actually confirms that Jesus was indeed coming from the stance of Buddhism that ALL are God. And when he states that He and the Father are ONE, he means that this is true for everyone. He was not attempting to claim to be any special "only begotten son" of God. He was a pantheist. He was trying to teaching that we are all equally childern of God, and that he was no exception to this condition. In fact, that's the only meaning that would make sense in the context of him using this as a defense against charges of blaspheme. Moreover, why would Jesus lie or hide the TRUTH? If Jesus truly was claiming to be some sort of SPECIAL son of God then why defend against those charges? Why not speak the TRUTH and say, yes, I am the only begotten son of God. We can't very well have a demigod weaseling out of that "truth" by responding that ALL are Gods. That makes no sense. So as far as I'm concerned this episode where Jesus (or Yahushua) defends himself from charges of blaspheme by saying, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim?", is extremely strong evidence that Jesus was indeed taking a pantheistic stance thus supporting my belief that he was indeed coming from a position of Buddhism. So this actually supports my belief that Jesus was not a demigod, and wasn't even attempting to claim to be one. He was being misunderstood and he was attempting to clarify that misunderstanding. Unfortunately he failed to clarify this misunderstanding in the end and thus the fables that he was "The Christ" have blossomed to become what we today know as "Christianity". A belief that Jesus was some sort of special demigod, born of a virgin and sent as the sacrificial lamb of God to "pay" for our sins. That's the RUMOR that became "Christianity". And yet in the verses that you referred to here we actually have Jesus himself denying that he was anything any more special than anyone else. That was his defense when he was being charged with blaspheme. He denied those charges himself. He denied it when he proclaimed that all are god and pointed to the Torah to support that pantheistic view. Jesus was a Buddhist.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/28/11 08:16 PM Edited by CowboyGH on Wed 09/28/11 08:17 PM
Hi Miles, I read your entire post. I have no problem with anything you've posted. In fact, everything you've posted is actually taking the view from "inside" the religion. In other words, you're trying to decipher what the authors of these texts were actually attempting to say, or what they believed. I have no doubt that the authors of these texts believed that Jesus (or Yahushua) was indeed the messiah. There's no question about that, they clearly make extreme arguments for this, and really go out of their way to proclaim this to be the truth. However, from my perspective, all of their writings are indeed biased by their belief and agenda to make out that Jesus (or Yahushua) was indeed the messiah. That's clearly the goal of their writings. There's no question about that. In fact, that's the very reason those writings became the basis of these scriptures. These are the "rumors" that are being held out as the "gospel truth". However, as you well know I personally don't buy into that conclusion and I see these writings as strongly tainted by these conclusions, which I am not convinced of. In your post you posted the following: Miles wrote: John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 - Yahushua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself Elohim. Here is the accusation again. Here would have been the opportunity for Yahushua to show them if He was Elohim in the sense of a deity. But rather, Yahushua downplays the greatness of such a title: John 10:34 - Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim? Is Yahushua not downplaying the greatness of being called "Elohim" just as I am in this study? It is truth that this word Elohim is used in reference to Angels, judges, men and yes, Yahushua also. This is what Yahushua pointed out to them and it is what I point out to others. But this word is never used in sense of the "the source of all things, the giver of all life" to any other thing but Father Yahweh Himself. Yahushua defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'. This shows that they had a false concept of what "Elohim" means, just as do leaders of today. Yahushua clearly defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'. This is one place where I feel that Jesus (or Yahushua), was actually rejecting the idea that he was claiming to be anything special and he was actually decreeing that he is not claiming to be any different from anyone else. Jesus (or Yahushua) was being accused of blaspheme here. And his defense against those charges was to point to the Torah (which he referred to as There Law (not God's law), and show where even their scriptures recognize that men are God (or Elohim). Which is the Buddhist view. All are God. Buddhism is basically Pantheism and that's precisely what Pantheism means, "All are God". Also, there is basically a flaw in the printing of the Biblical verses that truly irks me. As you point out is states that Jesus says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim?" (or Ye are Gods). Jesus (or Yahushua), was not claiming that HE had said this, like as if the Torah represents His Word, on the contrary, if you look up the verse that Jesus (or Yahushua) was referring to it actually states right in the Torah, "I have said, Ye are Gods", (or Ye are Elohim). Moreover, it makes no sense to suggest that Jesus was speaking about earthly judges, kings, or rulers, or anything like that. That wouldn't make sense in this context. Jesus was using this as a defense against charges of blaspheme. Therefore it would make no sense as a "defense against blaspheme" to simply suggest that other men are mere mortal judges, etc, when he is being charged with proclaiming to be something special when he states that He and the Father are One. No, no, no, that makes no sense at all. In order for this to have been a "defense against charges of blaspheme" Jesus would have had to been implying that ALL ARE SONS OF GOD, and that he was not making any special claim about himself. If that's not what he had meant, then it would not have been a "Defense against the charges of blaspheme". It could only be a defense if he was indeed attempting to imply that everyone is equally God and that he is not claiming to be anything special. I firmly believe that this particular episode in these stories actually confirms that Jesus was indeed coming from the stance of Buddhism that ALL are God. And when he states that He and the Father are ONE, he means that this is true for everyone. He was not attempting to claim to be any special "only begotten son" of God. He was a pantheist. He was trying to teaching that we are all equally childern of God, and that he was no exception to this condition. In fact, that's the only meaning that would make sense in the context of him using this as a defense against charges of blaspheme. Moreover, why would Jesus lie or hide the TRUTH? If Jesus truly was claiming to be some sort of SPECIAL son of God then why defend against those charges? Why not speak the TRUTH and say, yes, I am the only begotten son of God. We can't very well have a demigod weaseling out of that "truth" by responding that ALL are Gods. That makes no sense. So as far as I'm concerned this episode where Jesus (or Yahushua) defends himself from charges of blaspheme by saying, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim?", is extremely strong evidence that Jesus was indeed taking a pantheistic stance thus supporting my belief that he was indeed coming from a position of Buddhism. So this actually supports my belief that Jesus was not a demigod, and wasn't even attempting to claim to be one. He was being misunderstood and he was attempting to clarify that misunderstanding. Unfortunately he failed to clarify this misunderstanding in the end and thus the fables that he was "The Christ" have blossomed to become what we today know as "Christianity". A belief that Jesus was some sort of special demigod, born of a virgin and sent as the sacrificial lamb of God to "pay" for our sins. That's the RUMOR that became "Christianity". And yet in the verses that you referred to here we actually have Jesus himself denying that he was anything any more special than anyone else. That was his defense when he was being charged with blaspheme. He denied those charges himself. He denied it when he proclaimed that all are god and pointed to the Torah to support that pantheistic view. Jesus was a Buddhist. In order for this to have been a "defense against charges of blaspheme" Jesus would have had to been implying that ALL ARE SONS OF GOD, and that he was not making any special claim about himself. We are children of God. That is why for some people prayer starts with "dear heavenly father". That is where the term "born" again comes into play. We are first born of this world, born of the flesh. Then if one later on accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior and give their life over to our father, they are "born again". They are spiritually born, they become a child of God. Jesus is special though. Besides being the messiah, Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN child of God.

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Wed 09/28/11 08:35 PM
Cowboy wrote: Jesus is special though. Besides being the messiah, Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN child of God. But that's precisely what Jesus himself denied when he was charged with blaspheme. His defense is that we are all the begotten children of God, and therefore he was not claiming to be anything special. This is the fallacy upon which the entire religion of Christianity rests. Jesus was merely one child of God, just like the rest of us. That was his very own defense. Pilot also exonerated Jesus of charges of blaspheme after having conversed with him. So evidently Jesus convinced Pilot as well that he was not claiming to be anything special. The only people who make these claims are the "Christians". Jesus himself renounced these claims.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/28/11 08:39 PM
Cowboy wrote: Jesus is special though. Besides being the messiah, Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN child of God. But that's precisely what Jesus himself denied when he was charged with blaspheme. His defense is that we are all the begotten children of God, and therefore he was not claiming to be anything special. This is the fallacy upon which the entire religion of Christianity rests. Jesus was merely one child of God, just like the rest of us. That was his very own defense. Pilot also exonerated Jesus of charges of blaspheme after having conversed with him. So evidently Jesus convinced Pilot as well that he was not claiming to be anything special. The only people who make these claims are the "Christians". Jesus himself renounced these claims. Incorrect. Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN child of God. When one is born again, they are CHILDREN of God, not BEGOTTEN children of God. Jesus had no mortal dad "father". God the father was his only father. We are first born of the flesh, then later born of the spirit. That is why one can not receive the gift of Heaven without accepting Jesus as lord and savior. Before one does that, they are merely again born of the flesh. And this flesh was condemned to the grave.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/28/11 08:40 PM
Cowboy wrote: Jesus is special though. Besides being the messiah, Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN child of God. But that's precisely what Jesus himself denied when he was charged with blaspheme. His defense is that we are all the begotten children of God, and therefore he was not claiming to be anything special. This is the fallacy upon which the entire religion of Christianity rests. Jesus was merely one child of God, just like the rest of us. That was his very own defense. Pilot also exonerated Jesus of charges of blaspheme after having conversed with him. So evidently Jesus convinced Pilot as well that he was not claiming to be anything special. The only people who make these claims are the "Christians". Jesus himself renounced these claims. Incorrect. Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN child of God. When one is born again, they are CHILDREN of God, not BEGOTTEN children of God. Jesus had no mortal dad "father". God the father was his only father. We are first born of the flesh, then later born of the spirit. That is why one can not receive the gift of Heaven without accepting Jesus as lord and savior. Before one does that, they are merely again born of the flesh. And this flesh was condemned to the grave. That old saying "live by the sword, die by the sword" can be applied here. Live by the flesh, die by the flesh.

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Wed 09/28/11 09:07 PM
Cowboy wrote: That old saying "live by the sword, die by the sword" can be applied here. Live by the flesh, die by the flesh. That has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus himself denied charges of blaspheme by appealing to a pantheistic view of humanity. And that's the bottom line right there.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/28/11 09:15 PM
Cowboy wrote: That old saying "live by the sword, die by the sword" can be applied here. Live by the flesh, die by the flesh. That has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus himself denied charges of blaspheme by appealing to a pantheistic view of humanity. And that's the bottom line right there. We are Gods though. What exactly is a god? Not speaking of some fantasy view. But is God not the top of the command line? The one in control? Now look at the human race, we are at the top of the command line on Earth (besides God the father of course). But as for the breathing things that live on Earth, we are on top of the food chain. We are the one's that rule this planet. We can move parts of Earth and shape how we need eg., bulldozers, ect. We are the most intelligent being that lives on this Earth, the Earth is our's to subdue. We are in charge on Earth, thus we are the god's of this Earth. All other creatures of this Earth go where we allow them to go.

AdventureBegins Joined Tue 04/10/07 Posts: 7666	Wed 09/28/11 09:33 PM
Cowboy wrote: That old saying "live by the sword, die by the sword" can be applied here. Live by the flesh, die by the flesh. That has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus himself denied charges of blaspheme by appealing to a pantheistic view of humanity. And that's the bottom line right there. We are Gods though. What exactly is a god? Not speaking of some fantasy view. But is God not the top of the command line? The one in control? Now look at the human race, we are at the top of the command line on Earth (besides God the father of course). But as for the breathing things that live on Earth, we are on top of the food chain. We are the one's that rule this planet. We can move parts of Earth and shape how we need eg., bulldozers, ect. We are the most intelligent being that lives on this Earth, the Earth is our's to subdue. We are in charge on Earth, thus we are the god's of this Earth. All other creatures of this Earth go where we allow them to go. Yep... We spend 200 years building a fine city by 'moving' the earth about to our satifaction... and nature destroys it with but a few minutes of 'moving' it back. (mankind is yet a LONG way from being mature enough to 'subdue' the earth in a proper manner). We do not rule this planet. We exist upon it.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/28/11 09:39 PM
Cowboy wrote: That old saying "live by the sword, die by the sword" can be applied here. Live by the flesh, die by the flesh. That has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus himself denied charges of blaspheme by appealing to a pantheistic view of humanity. And that's the bottom line right there. We are Gods though. What exactly is a god? Not speaking of some fantasy view. But is God not the top of the command line? The one in control? Now look at the human race, we are at the top of the command line on Earth (besides God the father of course). But as for the breathing things that live on Earth, we are on top of the food chain. We are the one's that rule this planet. We can move parts of Earth and shape how we need eg., bulldozers, ect. We are the most intelligent being that lives on this Earth, the Earth is our's to subdue. We are in charge on Earth, thus we are the god's of this Earth. All other creatures of this Earth go where we allow them to go. Yep... We spend 200 years building a fine city by 'moving' the earth about to our satifaction... and nature destroys it with but a few minutes of 'moving' it back. (mankind is yet a LONG way from being mature enough to 'subdue' the earth in a proper manner). We do not rule this planet. We exist upon it. Maybe part of a town, or some other man made place yes. But we remove the dirt once again and repair what was damaged if the place was of some importance to someone/for something.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Wed 09/28/11 10:17 PM Edited by MorningSong on Wed 09/28/11 10:27 PM
OK....LISTEN UP NOW..... There is AN ORDER in the Godhead. (GOD IS A GOD OF ORDER, NOT CHAOS). God the Father is FIRST, God the Son is SECOND. God the Holy Spirit is THIRD. THAT ORDER WILL ALWAYS REMAIN THE SAME...THAT ORDER WITHIN THE GODHEAD WILL NEVER CHANGE. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE!!!! Notice......the Father is the HEAD !!!!! THE FATHER WILL ALWAYS BE THE HEAD!!!! HOWEVER......THAT DOES NOT NOT NOT MAKE ANY OF THE THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD, ANY LESSS GOD!!!!! ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD , ARE EQUALLY EQUALLY EQUALLY GOD....(shouting here to FINALLY get this across ) AND ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD, MAKE UP ONLY ONE GOD!!! WE WORSHIP ONLY ONE GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!! JESUS IS AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER. THE HOLY SPIRiT IS JUST AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER. YES..THE FATHER IS ALWAYS THE HEAD OF THE TRINITY.... AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE HEAD...BUT BUT BUT...... THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE ANY LESSS GOD THAN THE FATHER!!!!!!! John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I KNOW them, and they FOLLOW me: 28 And I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE ; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man PLUCK them out of my hand. NOTICE....THAT IS JESUS SPEAKING THERE....SAYING,"I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE!!" MEANING....JESUS HAS TO BE JUST AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER, IN ORDER TO SAY THOSE WORDS....OTHERWISE, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF BEING A BLASPHEMER!!! MEANING...ONLY GOD CAN GIVE ETERNAL LIFE!!! NOW...DOES THAT MEAN THAT JESUS IS NOW THE HEAD OF THE FATHER, JUST BECAUSE HE SAID THAT ? NO....JESUS IS STILL THE SON.....AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE SON...BUT STILL EQUALLY GOD WITH THE FATHER..AND THEREFORE, JUST AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER!!(but AGAIN, His being equally God, does not mean God the Father isn't still the HEAD...POSTIONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD DO NOT CHANGE ,JUST BECAUSE AL 3 PERSONS WITHN THE GODHEAD ARE EQUALLY GOD) AND ALSO....EVEN THOUGH THE FATHER IS ALWAYS THE HEAD, HE STILL GAVE ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE GLORY TO HIS SON JESUS...AND EXALTED HIS NAME HIGH ABOVE EVERY NAME....THAT, AT THE NAME OF JESUS , EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS THAT ,"JESUS CHRIST IS LORD"!!!! BUT AGAIN....DOES THAT MEAN NOW,THAT THE FATHER IS NO LONGER THE HEAD...JUST BECAUSE HE GAVE ALLLL GLORY TO HIS SON? NO!!! THE ORDER WITHIN THE TRINITY ALWAYS REMAINS THE SAME....HOWEVER..THAT ORDER DOES NOT MAKE ANY OF THE THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE TRINITY, ANY LESS GOD!!!! EVER!!! ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD, ARE ALL EQUALLY GOD...FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER !!!! EVEN THOUGH ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL GLORY IS GIVEN TO JESUS....ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD,STILL...... ARE ALL EQUALLY GOD. WE SERVE ONE GOD ALMIGHTY. MY FATHER , which GAVE THEM ME , is GREATER THAN ALL; and NO man is able to pluck them out OF MY FATHER'S HAND. All things are given TO Yahushua BY THE FATHER ..." AND AGAIN...JUST BECASUE THE FATHER IS ALWAYS THE HEAD ,DOESN'T MAKE ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE TRINITY ,ANY LESS GOD THAN THE OTHER. ALL 3 PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD,ARE ALWAYS GONNA BE EQUALLY GOD....BECAUSE AGAIN....WE SERVE ONE GOD AND ONE GOD ALMIGHTY ONLY!!! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ONLY ONE GOD HERE, FOLKS!!! SOME MORE SCRIPTURES: "For God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON , that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not SEND HIS SON into the world to condemn the world, but to SAVE the world THROUGH HIM . Whoever BELIEVES IN HIM ...... In other words.....Whoever BELIEVES IN JESUS CHRIST shall be BORN AGAIN and have ETERNAL LIFE.....meaning...JESUS HAS TO BE EQUALLLY GOD WITH THE FATHER, IN ORER TO GIVE US ETERNAL LIFE LIKE THAT..CAUSE ONLY GOD ALONE CAN GIVE US ETERNAL LIFE!!! Jesus said, “NO ONE can COME TO ME UNLESS the FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS him” (John 6:44), and “No one can come to me UNLESS it is GRANTED him BY THE FATHER” (John 6:65). OK..NOTICE HOW JESUS SAYS, THAT NO ONE CAN COME TO JESUS, EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW HIM. MEANING....FATHER GOD IS STILL THE HEAD....EVEN THOUGH THE FATHER GAVE ALLLLLLLLLLLL GLORY TO THE SON NOW. BUT BUT BUT...ONE LAST TIME NOW......THAT DOES NOT NOT NOT MEAN THAT THE FATHER , SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, ARE ANY LESS EQUALLYY GOD, JUST BECASUE THE FATHER IS ALWAYS THE HEAD...!!!!!! (NOW....JUST TO GET SOMETHING STRAIGHT HERE.... WE ARE NOT SAYING THE THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD HAVE EQUALLY THE SAME POSITION HERE..NO.....WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD, AS BEING EQUALLY GOD...MAKING UP ONLY ONE GOD ALMIGHTY!!! MEANING....THEIR POSITION WITHIN THE GODHEAD DOES NOT TAKE AWAY IN THE LEAST, FROM ALL 3 WITHIN THE GODHEAD, BEING ALL EQUALLY GOD !!! WHEN GOD COMES TO LIVE IN US THRU THE HOLY SPIRIT, IT ALSO TAKES THE WORKING OF THE FATHER AND THE SON, ALSO.....TO BRING THIS ABOUT. ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD WORK TOGETHER..THEY ARE CO-EQUALLY GOD.........BUT AGAIN, THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THEIR POSITIONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD!!!!!! THE FATHER WILL ALWAYS BE THE FIRST PERSON OF THE TRINITY...THE SON WILL ALWAYS REMAIN THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY(ALTHOUGH THE SON HAS BEEN EXALTED HIGH BY THE FATHER, AND HIS NAME IS ABOVE EVERY NAME NOW).... AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL ALWAYS REMAIN THE THRID PERSON OF THE TRINITY.......... EACH HAS A UNIQUE FUNCTION WITHIN THE TRINITY...YET EACH FUNCTION IS JUST AS IMPORTANT WITHIN THE TRINITY AS THE NEXT....THEY WORK TOGETHER AS ONE GOD........EACH PERSON WITHIN THE TRINITY IS EQUALLY GOD....... AND ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD WHO ARE EQUALLY GOD, MAKE UP ONLY ONE GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!!!! THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD WE SERVE!!! ONE GOD AND ONE GOD ONLY , DO WE WORSHIP!!!! PRAISE GOD FOREVERMORE !!! AMEN AND AMEN AND AMEN!!!!!!!! .

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/28/11 10:21 PM
OK....LISTEN UP NOW..... There is AN ORDER in the Godhead. (GOD IS A GOD OF ORDER, NOT CHAOS). God the Father is FIRST, God the Son is SECOND. God the Holy Spirit is THIRD. THAT ORDER WILL ALWAYS REMAIN THE SAME...THAT ORDER WITHIN THE GODHEAD WILL NEVER CHANGE. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE!!!! Notice......the Father is the HEAD !!!!! THE FATHER WILL ALWAYS BE THE HEAD!!!! HOWEVER......THAT DOES NOT NOT NOT MAKE ANY OF THE THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD, ANY LESSS GOD!!!!! ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD , ARE EQUALLY EQUALLY EQUALLY GOD....(shouting here to FINALLY get this across ) AND ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD, MAKE UP ONLY ONE GOD!!! WE WORSHIP ONLY ONE GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!! JESUS IS AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER. THE HOLY SPIRiT IS JUST AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER. YES..THE FATHER IS ALWAYS THE HEAD OF THE TRINITY.... AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE HEAD...BUT BUT BUT...... THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE ANY LESSS GOD THAN THE FATHER!!!!!!! John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I KNOW them, and they FOLLOW me: 28 And I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE ; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man PLUCK them out of my hand. NOTICE....THAT IS JESUS SPEAKING THERE....SAYING,"I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE!!" MEANING....JESUS HAS TO BE JUST AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER, IN ORDER TO SAY THOSE WORDS....OTHERWISE, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF BEING A BLASPHEMER!!! MEANING...ONLY GOD CAN GIVE ETERNAL LIFE!!! NOW...DOES THAT MEAN THAT JESUS IS NOW THE HEAD OF THE FATHER, JUST BECAUSE HE SAID THAT ? NO....JESUS IS STILL THE SON.....AND ALWAYS WIL BE THE SON...BUT EQUALLY GOD WITH THE FATHER..AND THEREFORE, JUST AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER!!(but AGAIN, His being equally God, does not mean God the Father isn't still the HEAD.) AND ALSO....EVEN THOUGH THE FATHER IS ALWAYS THE HEAD, HE STILL GAVE ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE GLORY TO HIS SON JESUS...AND EXALTED HIS NAME HIGH ABOVE EVERY NAME....THAT, AT THE NAME OF JESUS , EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS THAT ,"JESUS CHRIST IS LORD"!!!! BUT AGAIN....DOES THAT MEAN NOW,THAT THE FATHER IS NO LONGER THE HEAD...JUST BECAUSE HE GAVE ALLLL GLORY TO HIS SON? NO!!! THE ORDER WITHIN THE TRINITY ALWAYS REMAINS THE SAME....HOWEVER..THAT ORDER DOES NOT MAKE ANY OF THE THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE TRINITY, ANY LESS GOD!!!! EVER!!! ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD, ARE ALL EQUALLY GOD...FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER !!!! EVEN THOUGH ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL GLORY IS GIVEN TO JESUS....ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD,STILL...... ARE ALL EQUALLY GOD. WE SERVE ONE GOD ALMIGHTY. MY FATHER , which GAVE THEM ME , is GREATER THAN ALL; and NO man is able to pluck them out OF MY FATHER'S HAND. All things are given TO Yahushua BY THE FATHER ..." AND AGAIN...JUST BECASUE THE FATHER IS ALWAYS THE HEAD ,DOESN'T MAKE ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE TRINITY ,ANY LESS GOD THAN THE OTHER. ALL 3 PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD,ARE ALWAYS GONNA BE EQUALLY GOD....BECAUSE AGAIN....WE SERVE ONE GOD AND ONE GOD ALMIGHTY ONLY!!! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ONLY ONE GOD HERE, FOLKS!!! SOME MORE SCRIPTURES: "For God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON , that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not SEND HIS SON into the world to condemn the world, but to SAVE the world THROUGH HIM . Whoever BELIEVES IN HIM ...... In other words.....Whoever BELIEVES IN JESUS CHRIST shall be BORN AGAIN and have ETERNAL LIFE.....meaning...JESUS HAS TO BE EQUALLLY GOD WITH THE FATHER, IN ORER TO GIVE US ETERNAL LIFE LIKE THAT..CAUSE ONLY GOD ALONE CAN GIVE US ETERNAL LIFE!!! Jesus said, “NO ONE can COME TO ME UNLESS the FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS him” (John 6:44), and “No one can come to me UNLESS it is GRANTED him BY THE FATHER” (John 6:65). OK..NOTICE HOW JESUS SAYS, THAT NO ONE CAN COME TO JESUS, EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW HIM. MEANING....FATHER GOD IS STILL THE HEAD....EVEN THOUGH THE FATHER GAVE ALLLLLLLLLLLL GLORY TO THE SON NOW. BUT BUT BUT...ONE LAST TIME NOW......THAT DOES NOT NOT NOT MEAN THAT THE FATHER , SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, ARE ANY LESS EQUALLYY GOD, JUST BECASUE THE FATHER IS ALWAYS THE HEAD...!!!!!! (NOW....JUST TO GET SOMETHING STRAIGHT HERE.... WE ARE NOT SAYING THE THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD HAVE EQUALLY THE SAME POSITION HERE..NO.....WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD, AS BEING EQUALLY GOD...MAKING UP ONLY ONE GOD ALMIGHTY!!! MEANING....THEIR POSITION WITHIN THE GODHEAD DOES NOT TAKE AWAY IN THE LEAST, FROM ALL 3 WITHIN THE GODHEAD, BEING ALL EQUALLY GOD !!! WHEN GOD COMES TO LIVE IN US THRU THE HOLY SPIRIT, IT ALSO TAKES THE WORKING OF THE FATHER AND THE SON, ALSO.....TO BRING THIS ABOUT. ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD WORK TOGETHER..THEY ARE CO-EQUALLY GOD.........BUT AGAIN, THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THEIR POSITIONS WITHIN THE GODHEAD!!!!!! THE FATHER WILL ALWAYS BE THE FIRST PERSON OF THE TRINITY...THE SON WILL ALWAYS REMAIN THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY(ALTHOUGH THE SON HAS BEEN EXALTED HIGH BY THE FATHER, AND HIS NAME IS ABOVE EVERY NAME NOW).... AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL ALWAYS REMAIN THE THRID PERSON OF THE TRINITY.......... EACH HAS A UNIQUE FUNCTION WITHIN THE TRINITY...YET EACH FUNCTION IS JUST AS IMPORTANT WITHIN THE TRINITY AS THE NEXT....THEY WORK TOGETHER AS ONE GOD........EACH PERSON WITHIN THE TRINITY IS EQUALLY GOD....... AND ALL THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE GODHEAD WHO ARE EQUALLY GOD, MAKE UP ONLY ONE GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!!!! THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD WE SERVE!!! ONE GOD AND ONE GOD ONLY , DO WE WORSHIP!!!! PRAISE GOD FOREVERMORE !!! AMEN AND AMEN AND AMEN!!!!!!!! . We do worship one God. We worship God the father through Jesus the son. We obey Jesus, so we obey the father.