Twenty-five K is about twelve bucks an hour which is about the average of what employers are offering these days.

Forty-five K is about twenty-three bucks an hour which is a pretty good wage till you get laid off and have to take a twelve dollar and hour job.

Did you read that? It even says a college degree is one of the main indicators of the middle class. If you go down the the "lower middle class"

"The lower middle class... these are people in technical and lower-level management positions who work for those in the upper middle class as lower managers, craftspeople, and the like. They enjoy a reasonably comfortable standard of living, although it is constantly threatened by taxes and inflation. Generally, they have a Bachelor's and sometimes Masters college degree."

yes, lower 'middle' class

but the point is not about the label...

Yes but my original argument was. That the original points listed do not necessarily have anything to do with the middle class. They are most likely to do with the working class. And off on a slight tangent. Notice they consider managers middle class. You argued on another thread that Herman Cain wouldn't understand the middle class as he is a Manager and that is not related to middle class when it actually is.

Now I am not arguing that people are hurting. I am arguing that a lot of these points are reflective of people in the working class hurting more so than the middle class.

more and more middle class are becoming working class, and that arises out of the already existent cross over between the two

I would like to add I followed a link on your site and got this.

In 2000, there were 72 million middle-class jobs: manufacturing, construction, FIRE, transportation, etc; today, there are 65 million jobs, we have lost 10% of our middle class supporting jobs. We have replaced these with part-time jobs

Now the majority of workers in manufacturing, construction, transportation, etc would not be college educated people. They are not white collar jobs. Now of course there are some managers and possibly engineers but the majority of these job losses are going to come from the working class/blue collar jobs. I find the article misleading in that respect.

I just find that it doesnt use Webers theory of class in its description

it uses a description of class that probably has nothing to do with 'degrees' (Especially since mere obtaining of a degree doesnt guarantee 'white collar' jobs anymore)

Its not only Webers. I used the link you gave me to list what represents the middle class in America. Your own source that you provided mentioned degrees and alike.

what link mentioned degrees?

from your own source

Income is one of a household's attributes most commonly used to determine its class status. Yet, income may not always accurately reflect a household's position within society or the economy.[27] Unlike personal income, household income does not reflect occupational achievement as much as it measures the number of income earners. Sociologist Dennis Gilbert acknowledges that a working class household with two income earners may out-earn a single-income upper middle class household, as the number of income earners has evolved into one of the most important variables in determining household income. For example, according to the US Department of Labor, two registered nurses could quite easily command a household income of $126,000 annually,[31] while the median income for a lawyer was $94,930.[32] Furthermore, household income fails to recognize household size. For example, a single attorney, earning $95,000, may have a higher standard of living than a family of four with an income of $120,000. Yet household income is still a commonly used class indicator, as household members share the same economic fate and class position.[14]

Your wikipedia link.

Members of the middle class belong to diverse groups which overlap with each other. Overall, middle class persons, especially upper middle class individuals, are characterized by conceptualizing, creating and consulting. Thus, college education is one of the main indicators of middle class status.

to address the arguments about class, I offer that each has a point but by making the individual points, perhaps the bigger picture is getting lost.

It always seems easier to discuss class in terms of upper, middle, and lower and, as someone has already brought up, Marxist theory in which the classes are identified as the bourgeoisie, those whose power is derived through the ownership of the means of production, and the proletariat, whom we refer to as the working class.

However, the Marxist two class system is greatly simplified as is the idea of upper, middle and lower class.

Today, when discussing or researching such issues as class, the social class is regarded in terms of social stratification. Even within each broader class, social stratification occurs.

Social stratification is determined by four things: wealth, power, influence and control. One can have power within the confines of smaller a class subset, or one may be an influential member of their social network but those who dominate the stratification ladder generally combine all of these determinants. One logical flow may be wealth equals power, power equals influence, and influence equals control. In my reading I have noted that most economic references consider 8 give or take social classes within our (the U.S.)stratification.

In our society, in fact in most of the world today, it would be those who have the combined attributes of wealth, power, influence, and control who have become the highest or dominating class – we call them the corporate capitalists.

The greatest reminder today of the imbalance that exists between the uppermost class where wealth, power, influence, and control are combined, and the lowest stratification is seen in the “Occupy Wall Street” demonstrations which aptly portray a two class system (similar to the Marxist theory) by using the logo “We are the 99%”, the 1%, of course, are the corporate capitalists.

It seems that Marxist theory is developing as Marx imagined, those (the 1 %), who own the means of production, have the wealth and the thus the power to influence and control the other 99%.

Has anyone here read Marxist theory to know what he suggested would happen when the 99% realized what was the extent to which they are dominated?

Anyway, Marxist theory depends on stages of political and social development, a series of events, that must happen naturally (not be forced as in Russia or Vietnam). I think it’s interesting to read Marxist theory and generalize comparisons between his stages of development and the current political climate.

In a paper I wrote two years ago, I suggested that Marx’s view may have been too narrow and he did not envision this stage, that we are currently in, to be so broad as to envelope a wider global community.

On the other hand it could be that he envisioned the social, political and economic movement, referred to as communism, as a return to national isolation, being a temporary cure, before the next stage which may be more global. Perhaps he didn’t have the opportunity of completing his theory.

So while there are many ways in which to describe class stratification within a society, the best method requires that we consider social, political and economic climates from the perspective of wealth, power, influence, and control.

Does anyone here believe they are not part of the 99 % with regards to our current U.S. social, political and economic stratification or even within the broader world dominated social order?

Below is a website and an excellent power point, presented by a college professor, that describe social class – also Wikipedia offers some great articles for further research.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Social-Class-in-the-United-States&id=939641

http://a-s.clayton.edu/ipage/Social%20Class%20in%20the%20United%20States.ppt

thanx red,, its a broad subject with several interpretations ('class' that is)

EMBARGOED UNTIL RELEASEAT 8:30 A.M. EDT, FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2011 BEA 11-50
James Rankin: (202) 606-5301 (Personal Income) piniwd@bea.gov
Kyle Brown: (202) 606-5302 (Personal Consumption Expenditures) pce@bea.gov
* See the navigation bar at the right side of the news release text for links to data tables, contact personnel and their telephone numbers,and supplementary materials.
PERSONAL INCOME AND OUTLAYS: AUGUST 2011
Personal income decreased $7.3 billion, or 0.1 percent, and disposable personal income (DPI)decreased $5.0 billion, or less than 0.1 percent, in August, according to the Bureau of EconomicAnalysis. Personal consumption expenditures (PCE) increased $22.7 billion, or 0.2 percent. In July,personal income increased $17.1 billion, or 0.1 percent, DPI increased $14.4 billion, or 0.1 percent,and PCE increased $76.6 billion, or 0.7 percent, based on revised estimates.Real disposable income decreased 0.3 percent in August, compared with a decrease of 0.2percent in July. Real PCE decreased less than 0.1 percent, in contrast to anincrease of 0.4 percent. 2011 Apr. May June July Aug. (Percent change frompreceding month)Personal income, current dollars 0.4 0.3 0.2 0.1 -0.1Disposable personal income:Current dollars 0.3 0.2 0.1 0.1 0.0Chained (2005) dollars 0.0 0.0 0.3 -0.2 -0.3Personal consumption expenditures:Current dollars 0.3 0.2 -0.2 0.7 0.2Chained (2005) dollars -0.1 0.0 -0.1 0.4 0.0 Wages and salariesPrivate wage and salary disbursements decreased$12.2 billion in August, incontrast to an increaseof $23.8 billion in July. Goods-producing industries' payrolls decreased $1.3 billion, in contrast to anincrease of $6.3 billion; manufacturing payrolls decreased $2.9 billion, in contrast to an increase of$5.8 billion.Services-producing industries' payrolls decreased $10.9 billion, in contrast to an increaseof $17.5 billion.Government wage and salary disbursements increased $0.4 billion, in contrast to a decrease of$1.8 billion. Other personal incomeSupplements to wages and salaries increased$1.1 billion in August, compared with an increase of $3.3 billion in July.Proprietors' income increased $6.5 billion in August, compared with an increase of $3.1 billionin July. Farmproprietors' income increased $0.7 billion, compared with an increase of $0.8 billion. Nonfarm proprietors'income increased $5.7 billion, compared with an increase of $2.5 billion.Rental income of personsincreased $8.3 billion in August, compared with an increase of $8.1 billionin July.Personal income receipts on assets (personal interest income plus personal dividend income) decreased $5.7 billion,compared with a decrease of $5.8 billion.Personal current transfer receipts decreased $7.1 billion in August, compared with a decrease of $10.7 billionin July. Government social benefits to personsfor Medicaid decreased$10.5 billion, compared with a decrease of $13.6 billion.Contributions for government social insurance -- a subtractionin calculating personal income -- decreased $1.3billionin August, in contrast to an increase of $3.0 billionin July. Personal current taxes and disposable personal incomePersonal current taxes decreased $2.3 billion in August, in contrast to an increase of $2.7 billion in July.Disposable personal income (DPI) -- personal income less personal current taxes -- decreased $5.0 billion, orless than 0.1 percent, in August, in contrast to an increase of $14.4 billion, or 0.1 percent in July. Personaloutlays and personal savingPersonal outlays -- PCE, personal interest payments, and personal current transfer payments -- increased$26.3 billion in August,compared with an increase of $80.2 billion in July. PCE increased$22.7 billion, compared with an increase of $76.6 billion.Personal saving -- DPI lesspersonal outlays -- was$519.3 billion in August, compared with $550.5 billion in July.Personal saving as a percentage of disposablepersonal income was 4.5 percent in August, compared with 4.7 percent in July.For a comparison of personal saving in BEA’s national income and product accounts with personal saving in the FederalReserve Board’s flow of funds accounts and data on changes in net worth, go to www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/Nipa-Frb.asp. Real DPI,real PCE and price indexReal DPI -- DPI adjusted toremove price changes -- decreased 0.3 percent in August, compared with a decrease of 0.2 percent in July.Real PCE -- PCE adjusted toremove price changes -- decreased less than 0.1 percent in August, in contrast to an increaseof 0.4 percent in July. Purchases of durable goods increased 0.1 percent, compared with an increase of 2.2 percent.Purchases of nondurable goods decreased 0.4 percent, compared with a decrease of 0.5 percent. Purchases of services increased0.1 percent, compared with an increase of 0.4 percent.PCE price index -- The price index for PCE increased 0.2 percent in August,compared with an increase of 0.4 percent in July.The PCE price index, excluding food and energy, increased 0.1 percent, compared with an increase of 0.2 percent. RevisionsEstimates have been revised for April through July. Changes in personalincome, current-dollarand chained (2005) dollar DPI, and current-dollar and chained (2005) dollar PCE for Juneand July -- revised and aspublished in last month's release -- are shown below. Change from preceding month June July Previous Revised Previous Revised Previous Revised Previous Revised (Billions of dollars) (Percent) (Billions of dollars) (Percent)Personal Income:Current dollars 27.7 21.3 0.2 0.2 42.4 17.1 0.3 0.1Disposable personal income:Current dollars 22.6 15.4 0.2 0.1 32.5 14.4 0.3 0.1Chained (2005) dollars 32.9 26.4 0.3 0.3 -9.3 -24.7 -0.1 -0.2Personal consumption expenditures:Current dollars -14.3 -21.7 -0.1 -0.2 88.4 76.6 0.8 0.7Chained (2005) dollars -0.6 -7.3 0.0 -0.1 42.9 32.8 0.5 0.4BEA’s national, international, regional, and industry estimates; the Survey of Current Business; and BEA news releasesare available without charge on BEA's Web site at www.bea.gov. By visiting the site, you can also subscribe to receive freee-mail summaries of BEA releases and announcements. * * *Next release - October 28,2011 at 8:30 A.M. EDT for Personal Income and Outlays for September.________________________NOTE. -- Monthly estimates are expressed at seasonally adjusted annual rates, unless otherwise specified.Month-to-month dollar changes are differences between these publishedestimates. Month-to-month percent changes arecalculated from unrounded data and are not annualized. “Real” estimates are in chained (2005) dollars.This news release is available on BEA’s Web site at www.bea.gov/newsreleases/rels.htm .

Wow dude give a wall of text warning or something.