Ah Ha.............

so..........you must know the difference to be one or the other.

I rest my case!!!!!

This is not true. I know that that sounds odd, but that's how it is. Honesty is about accurately representing one's own belief. Being truthful is to not make false statements. One can be lying while making true statements, unbeknownst to themself. Let's say that there's a murder. The witness wrongfully thinks/believes that Joe is the murderer, but Joe is a friend of the witness. So when questioned the witness testifies that Bob did the killing, and that is true.

True lie.

Not so fast! Knowing how to not lie only requires knowing how to speak. Knowing how to speak does not require knowing the difference between speaking honestly and speaking dishonestly(lying).

Case dismissed.

Well......I agree to disagree.........

as a child, I knew only what I was taught.
I may have been honest because I saw my parents being that way.
I may have lied because I saw them Lie.
But.....
Until I fully knew and understood the difference.......
I could not conciously choose to be Honest.
Once I understood, and saw with my eyes the implications of the damage lies do to us and those we lie too.....
Then was I able to choose to be an Honest person!!!!
JMO

The question in the OP was can an honest person not know what a lie is?

I think that the correct answer has become apparent. One can be honest without knowing what a lie is because speaking honestly precedes speaking dishonestly. Lying presupposes a backdrop of speaking truthfully.

well that might be you're answer............
but any intelligent person can see........
if ya don't know what a lie is.....ya can't prevent tellin one.
sorry.....

but like I said.....

I agree to.....

disagree.

Choosing to be honest requires knowing what not being honest is. No argument here. However, being honest only requires learning how to speak. The default position is honesty. We learn to lie. We're honest by virtue of learning how to say what we think(learning how to speak).

Any intelligent person?

Everyone knows when they're misrepresenting their own belief to another. There is no such thing as a speaker who's lying but does not know that they are. If you believe otherwise, an example would be nice.

Maybe I'm confused........truout this thread I thought I saw you defending the premise that one could be honest without knowing what a lie was.
But this statement tells me you agree with me.....
That one must know the difference to choose to be ....either honest or dishonest!!!!!

Alright. Let's discuss some scenarios...

Joe is in one room of a house. Jill comes in and asks Joe if he's the only one there. Joe answers "yes, of course". Unbeknownst to Joe, Mary is in the other room.

Is Joe lying?

No. He is the only one in the room.....till Jill comes in.
and as you said ....he knows not that Mary is in another room.
Does not show if he knows the difference between truth and Lie!!!

whats the point????

I am defending the position that one can be honest without knowing what a lie is. I am also agreeing with you that one must know the difference between being honest and being dishonest in order to knowingly choose between the two.

Those are not mutually exclusive.

But it speaks to the original question.
Can one be honest whthout knowing what a lie is????
NO......they must know the difference!!!!!
JMO

The point is that he is not lying, even though what he says is not true. The reason he is not lying is because he is stating what he believes. He's offering honest testimony, but that testimony is false, none-the-less.

Honesty does not equate to truthfulness.

In order to choose not to lie(to choose to be honest), one must already know how to say what it is that they believe.

The truth is........He did NOT lie.
Nor was he dishonest.
Jill was not specific.
she asked if he was the only one there.
To him....there, is that room.
Had she asked are you the only one home.....
Honest answer would have been....
I don't know.

There is a critical distinction between being honest and choosing to be honest which you're not taking into consideration.

I'm sorry......the only distinction between the two.....
If ya don't know what honest is........
ya can't choose to be honest.
Knowing what honest is....requires also knowing what a lie is!!!!!

"The truth" in this example refers to your belief about the situation at hand. Nothing personal, but your belief does not equate to truth anymore than mine. Belief is insuffient for truth.

That being said...

We agree again here that Joe was not lying, nor was he being dishonest. Where we disagree, evidently, is in what an honest answer would be. I say that the one he gave was honest, and you're saying otherwise on one hand, but agreeing on the other.

Was his initial answer honest or dishonest?

I'm not sure what you're apologizing for. There is no need bruddah.

Again, I agree that if you don't know what honest is you can't choose to be honest. What I'm pointing out is that one can be honest without choosing to be. All that takes is knowing how to say what you think/believe and doing that.