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| Topic: Godlessness in the Last Days | |
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But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather that lovers of God--having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. (2 Timothy 3:1-5) NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16,17) |
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Edited by
Toodygirl5
on
Mon 07/22/13 11:37 AM
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Is Church membership really important in Your Life?
(Hebrews 10:25) kjv Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Startling Facts: An Up Close Look at Church Attendance in ... www.churchleaders.com Article... 1. Less than 20% of Americans regularly attend church — half of what the pollsters report. While Gallup polls and other statisticians have turned in the same percentage — about 40% of the population — of average weekend church attendees for the past 70 years, a different sort of research paints quite a disparate picture of how many Americans attend a local church on any given Sunday. Initially prompted to discover how church plants in America were really doing, Olson, director of church planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church (covchurch.org), began collecting data in the late "80s, gradually expanding his research to encompass overall attendance trends in the Church. In his study, he tracked the annual attendance of more than 200,000 individual Orthodox Christian churches (the accepted U.S. church universe is 330,000). To determine attendance at the remaining 100,000-plus Orthodox Christian churches, he used statistical models, which included multiplying a church"s membership number by the denomination"s membership-to-attendance ratio. The Numbers His findings reveal that the actual rate of church attendance from head counts is less than half of the 40% the pollsters report. Numbers from actual counts of people in Orthodox Christian churches (Catholic, mainline and evangelical) show that in 2004, 17.7% of the population attended a Christian church on any given weekend. Another study published in 2005 in The Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion by sociologists C. Kirk Hadaway and Penny Long Marler — known for their scholarly research on the Church — backs up his findings. Their report reveals that the actual number of people worshipping each week is closer to Olson"s 17.7% figure — 52 million people instead of the pollster-reported 132 million (40%). "We knew that over the past 30 to 40 years, denominations had increasingly reported a decline in their numbers," Marler says. "Even a still-growing denomination like the Southern Baptist Convention had reported slowed growth. Most of the mainline denominations were all reporting a net loss over the past 30 years. And at the same time, the Gallup polls had remained stable. It didn"t make sense." The Halo Effect What Hadaway and Marler, along with Mark Chaves, author of the "National Congregations Study," discovered was at play is what researchers call "the halo effect" — the difference between what people tell pollsters and what people actually do. Americans tend to over-report socially desirable behavior like voting and attending church and under-report socially undesirable behavior like drinking. Gallup Poll Editor in Chief Frank Newport agrees that the halo effect factors in to poll results. During a Gallup telephone survey of a random sampling of about 1,000 Americans nationwide, interviewers ask respondents questions such as, "In the last seven days, did you attend a church service, excluding weddings and funerals?" to determine their church-going habits. "When people try to reconstruct their own behavior, particularly more frequently occurring on-and-off behavior, it is more difficult, especially in a telephone interview scenario," Newport says. But he stands behind Gallup"s 40% figure: "I"ve been reviewing [U.S. church attendance] carefully," he says. "No matter how we ask the question to people, we get roughly 40% of Americans who present themselves as regular church attendees." He adds, however, that if you were to freeze the United States on any Sunday morning, you may find fewer than 40% of the country"s adults actually in churches. "Although about 40% of Americans are regular church attendees, it doesn"t necessarily mean 40% are in church on any given Sunday," he explains. "The most regular church attendee gets sick or sleeps in. The other reason may be people who tell us they go to church but are worshipping in non-traditional ways, such as small groups, people meeting in gyms or school libraries." A Disconnect In another study surveying the growth of U.S. Protestants, Marler and Hadaway discovered that while the majority of people they interviewed don"t belong to a local church, they still identify with their church roots. "Never mind the fact that they attend church less than 12 times a year," Marler observes. "We estimate that 78 million Protestants are in that place. Ask most pastors what percentage of inactive members they have — they"ll say anything from 40–60%." Even with a broader definition of church attendance, classifying a regular attendee as someone who shows up at least three out of every eight Sundays, only 23–25% of Americans would fit this category. Olson notes that an additional million church attendees would increase the percentage from 17.7% to only 18%. "You"d have to find 80 million more people that churches forgot to count to get to 40%." Clearly, a disconnect between what Americans say and what they actually do has created a sense of a resilient church culture when, in fact, it may not exist. |
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another well thought out article toddy
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Hebrews 10:24-25 (NIV) states the following:
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. The passage talks about the importance of Christians encouraging each other, but it does not state how, where or when Christians are to meet. Nor does the passage say anything about Christians sitting in an auditorium and listening to someone lecture them. Thanks to modern technology, Christians can meet and encourage each other without having to be face-to-face, although face-to-face meetings are a preferred method of meeting. |
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Hebrews 10:24-25 (NIV) states the following: And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. The passage talks about the importance of Christians encouraging each other, but it does not state how, where or when Christians are to meet. Nor does the passage say anything about Christians sitting in an auditorium and listening to someone lecture them. Thanks to modern technology, Christians can meet and encourage each other without having to be face-to-face, although face-to-face meetings are a preferred method of meeting. This article may be informative to others out there, please know that what I post is for encouragement rather than any preaching. Nothing wrong with people attending a Church building, I believe God is Pleased with that as well. |
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Tweet www.qideas.org
Church Can "Church" Happen Online? by Jonathan Merritt We have all heard Jesus’ words quoted and misquoted a thousand times: “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them” (Matthew 18:20, TNIV). But can two or three gather together if they are hundreds or thousands of miles apart? Can multiple believers fully and truly commune with each other electronically with the help of technology? And, more importantly, can a group of Christ followers gather via the internet in a way that would build the type of community Jesus intended for a New Testament church? Some would give a qualified “yes” to all of these questions; many of these same individuals now regularly gather together over the Internet through online churches. Some of these churches are established, most have sizable congregations, many have healthy budgets and a few are backed by major denominations. LifeChurch.tv has been an American pioneer in this arena, while i-church.org has existed since 1994. Alphachurch.org has about 6,000 regular online participants. Church on the Net, or “CotN” (www.church-on-the-net.com), is a joint initiative between the Methodist Church and the Church of England. In fact, every major religious tradition, including the Amish, now has an online presence. We can all agree that internet communities are a phenomenal resource for those who are not physically able to attend church. For the bedridden, for missionaries in closed countries with no access to a local body or for individuals who are frequently abroad, this is a valuable alternative to a local, physical church body. It is hard not to be intrigued by these Internet phenomena, but are they New Testament churches? It is difficult to determine the validity of a body of believers accomplishing a wonderful work like those mentioned above. Any Christian work that is building community, discipling believers and encouraging theological discussion should be applauded. Yet it is imperative that we speak of these communities in a way that is appropriately congruent with the scriptures. The Greek word for church, ekklesia, helps illuminate the issue, and it’s where any proper discussion of the nature of church will begin. Though it is translated “church” in English, it is an amalgamation of Greek words meaning “assembly.” Though the New Testament allows for some elasticity with this word, ekklesia overwhelmingly refers to a group of people who actually, physically assemble together. So is it in keeping with the biblical meaning of “church” to apply it to a group of people, even a group of Christians, who never actually assemble? Nicola David, spokesperson for CotN, says she believes her online community is the definition of ekklesia. “This is the one thing that people either get very excited about or very hot under the collar about when it comes to any online expression of church,” she says. “You can do worship online—but if someone is only judging from the comfortable standpoint of being an existing Christian in the embrace of a traditional church fellowship, they’ll never get that!” But is David falsely equating the ability to worship with the existence of a Biblical church? And is she overlooking the usage of the word? Ekklesia is found 114 times in the New Testament. Although it has become quite popular to emphasize the invisible, universal Church at the exclusion of the local body, it seems Scripture paints a different portrait. Only 13 times does this word refer to the universal Church, while at least 90 times it is used to describe a local church or churches. Although geographical lines do not define the Church, it is clear that the New Testament emphasizes the existence of a local, regularly assembling body. There are other problems with calling an online community a “church” apart from dusty, ancient language. Protestants historically have affirmed several distinctives or essential marks of a church. In Theology of the Reformers, Timothy George notes that the years leading up to the Reformation saw “an explosion in ecclesiology,” as it was becoming increasingly difficult to determine what a true church looked like. In general, the Reformers agreed that the two essential marks of a true church were preaching of the Bible and right administration of the sacraments. While some online communities give gospel preaching a strong push, most online churches neither attempt to perform the sacraments electronically nor defend their inability to do so. They simply de-emphasize their importance or suggest that members take them physically at a standing church if they so desire. Some internet churches strangely attempt to offer them online, but it is difficult to see how a virtual church can meaningfully celebrate them. After all, in the most extensive teaching on the Lord's Supper in the New Testament (1 Cor. 11), Paul uses the term "come together" five times. It is difficult to properly perform a corporate act when you never corporately assemble. Moreover, certain aspects of church life and ministry seem to require face-to-face meetings. Accountability and church discipline, providing help to the sick and poor, offering hospitality to one another and many other commands seem to require a physical assembly. Ultimately, we must understand that the speed of communication does not change the nature of communication. It seems that internet churches have communication, perhaps even communion, but not the optimal community necessary to function as a New Testament church. But perhaps most discouraging for those who gather online are those pesky “one another” passages. These verses emphasize the importance of physical community. As a local church, we are to serve one another (Gal. 5:13), bear one another (Eph. 4:2), speak to one another (Eph. 5:19), admonish one another (Col. 3:16), come together with one another (Heb. 10:25), offer hospitality to one another (1 Pet. 4:9), and have fellowship with one another (1 Jn. 1:7). It’s difficult to see how any community could fit this description without ever meeting together. I'm careful not to discourage any Gospel-minded community. We should seek to both learn from this movement and affirm its positive qualities. After all, there has always been an interesting interface between technology and church life. During the Reformation, the printing press—a technological wonder in the 15th century—played an important role in the widespread dissemination of knowledge. It is hard to imagine the impact Martin Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses would have made on society without the ability to propagate them. But in the end, promoting an internet community as a “church” is problematic. An important part of church is sharing common life with spiritual siblings, and it’s hard to see how this can happen with little more than a laptop. ----- Have you had any experience with an internet church? In your opinion, are these actually "churches?" ----- |
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Tweet www.qideas.org Church Can "Church" Happen Online? by Jonathan Merritt We have all heard Jesus’ words quoted and misquoted a thousand times: “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them” (Matthew 18:20, TNIV). But can two or three gather together if they are hundreds or thousands of miles apart? Can multiple believers fully and truly commune with each other electronically with the help of technology? And, more importantly, can a group of Christ followers gather via the internet in a way that would build the type of community Jesus intended for a New Testament church? Some would give a qualified “yes” to all of these questions; many of these same individuals now regularly gather together over the Internet through online churches. Some of these churches are established, most have sizable congregations, many have healthy budgets and a few are backed by major denominations. LifeChurch.tv has been an American pioneer in this arena, while i-church.org has existed since 1994. Alphachurch.org has about 6,000 regular online participants. Church on the Net, or “CotN” (www.church-on-the-net.com), is a joint initiative between the Methodist Church and the Church of England. In fact, every major religious tradition, including the Amish, now has an online presence. We can all agree that internet communities are a phenomenal resource for those who are not physically able to attend church. For the bedridden, for missionaries in closed countries with no access to a local body or for individuals who are frequently abroad, this is a valuable alternative to a local, physical church body. It is hard not to be intrigued by these Internet phenomena, but are they New Testament churches? It is difficult to determine the validity of a body of believers accomplishing a wonderful work like those mentioned above. Any Christian work that is building community, discipling believers and encouraging theological discussion should be applauded. Yet it is imperative that we speak of these communities in a way that is appropriately congruent with the scriptures. The Greek word for church, ekklesia, helps illuminate the issue, and it’s where any proper discussion of the nature of church will begin. Though it is translated “church” in English, it is an amalgamation of Greek words meaning “assembly.” Though the New Testament allows for some elasticity with this word, ekklesia overwhelmingly refers to a group of people who actually, physically assemble together. So is it in keeping with the biblical meaning of “church” to apply it to a group of people, even a group of Christians, who never actually assemble? Nicola David, spokesperson for CotN, says she believes her online community is the definition of ekklesia. “This is the one thing that people either get very excited about or very hot under the collar about when it comes to any online expression of church,” she says. “You can do worship online—but if someone is only judging from the comfortable standpoint of being an existing Christian in the embrace of a traditional church fellowship, they’ll never get that!” But is David falsely equating the ability to worship with the existence of a Biblical church? And is she overlooking the usage of the word? Ekklesia is found 114 times in the New Testament. Although it has become quite popular to emphasize the invisible, universal Church at the exclusion of the local body, it seems Scripture paints a different portrait. Only 13 times does this word refer to the universal Church, while at least 90 times it is used to describe a local church or churches. Although geographical lines do not define the Church, it is clear that the New Testament emphasizes the existence of a local, regularly assembling body. There are other problems with calling an online community a “church” apart from dusty, ancient language. Protestants historically have affirmed several distinctives or essential marks of a church. In Theology of the Reformers, Timothy George notes that the years leading up to the Reformation saw “an explosion in ecclesiology,” as it was becoming increasingly difficult to determine what a true church looked like. In general, the Reformers agreed that the two essential marks of a true church were preaching of the Bible and right administration of the sacraments. While some online communities give gospel preaching a strong push, most online churches neither attempt to perform the sacraments electronically nor defend their inability to do so. They simply de-emphasize their importance or suggest that members take them physically at a standing church if they so desire. Some internet churches strangely attempt to offer them online, but it is difficult to see how a virtual church can meaningfully celebrate them. After all, in the most extensive teaching on the Lord's Supper in the New Testament (1 Cor. 11), Paul uses the term "come together" five times. It is difficult to properly perform a corporate act when you never corporately assemble. Moreover, certain aspects of church life and ministry seem to require face-to-face meetings. Accountability and church discipline, providing help to the sick and poor, offering hospitality to one another and many other commands seem to require a physical assembly. Ultimately, we must understand that the speed of communication does not change the nature of communication. It seems that internet churches have communication, perhaps even communion, but not the optimal community necessary to function as a New Testament church. But perhaps most discouraging for those who gather online are those pesky “one another” passages. These verses emphasize the importance of physical community. As a local church, we are to serve one another (Gal. 5:13), bear one another (Eph. 4:2), speak to one another (Eph. 5:19), admonish one another (Col. 3:16), come together with one another (Heb. 10:25), offer hospitality to one another (1 Pet. 4:9), and have fellowship with one another (1 Jn. 1:7). It’s difficult to see how any community could fit this description without ever meeting together. I'm careful not to discourage any Gospel-minded community. We should seek to both learn from this movement and affirm its positive qualities. After all, there has always been an interesting interface between technology and church life. During the Reformation, the printing press—a technological wonder in the 15th century—played an important role in the widespread dissemination of knowledge. It is hard to imagine the impact Martin Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses would have made on society without the ability to propagate them. But in the end, promoting an internet community as a “church” is problematic. An important part of church is sharing common life with spiritual siblings, and it’s hard to see how this can happen with little more than a laptop. ----- Have you had any experience with an internet church? In your opinion, are these actually "churches?" ----- It appears to me that there is a misunderstanding of what an online church is. Church Online, for example, is an online extension of LifeChurch.tv. It provides the same worship experience that people have when they attend a worship service at a physical LifeChurch church campus. Plus, the online ministry enables people to talk to each other via a live chat room, as well as enable people to obtain private prayer with volunteers. The mutual edification of believers is further encouraged through participation in Life Groups. LifeChurch fills a need for people who do not have access to a traditional church campus. When discussing what the New Testament says about churches, keep in mind that the New Testament authors addressed only those things that were in existence when they were alive. They could not talk about online ministries because the concept of "online" was unknown to them. Online ministry is a means to an end. I find it unhelpful to fuss about new methods if the those methods are achieving the same goal as old methods. In Hebrews 10:24-25, the goal is to edify, not to gather together in the same physical location. |
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Edited by
Toodygirl5
on
Mon 07/22/13 03:26 PM
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Online ministry is a means to an end. I find it unhelpful to fuss about new methods if the those methods are achieving the same goal as old methods. In Hebrews 10:24-25, the goal is to edify, not to gather together in the same physical location. This is not a Fess. It maybe informative for some. Many people like to go to a church building it is Your choice where you want to fellowship. You don't have to agree with the Post. God honors people going to Church where Pastors preach his truth as well. So, if you want to go online like many, that is your choice, Online ministry can be helpful to Christians. But for you to say my Post is unhelpful is not true. God calls Ministers to preach in Churches. Meaning Church buildings all over the Nation. |
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another well thought out article toddy Thanks I like to do research. Many people may be encouraged by some information posted. .
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Edited by
Toodygirl5
on
Mon 07/22/13 03:41 PM
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It appears to me that there is a misunderstanding of what an online church is. No, what it isn't, is Personal contact that you can only get while meeting inperson and shaking hands, or giving a hug. Personal contact is important to some Christians. Online is Ok, for some but not everyone. We are accountable to God. Also the Pastor is a shepard of his folk and he watches over them and prays for them and counsels. Many people have a problem being under a Pastor. But if you have a true man of God , as a church leader, it is a Blessing.  |
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bro uche has no comment.i would rather sit back and enjoy the lecture.i preach alot in the church,i like being preached to also.may God bless your soul for the great research work you do,which obviously is aimed at edifying the brethren.may your ink never dry.amen
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bro uche has no comment.i would rather sit back and enjoy the lecture.i preach alot in the church,i like being preached to also.may God bless your soul for the great research work you do,which obviously is aimed at edifying the brethren.may your ink never dry.amen Thank You To God be the Glory! |
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never despise d gathering of the saints nd worship God in hs sanctuary
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Online ministry is a means to an end. I find it unhelpful to fuss about new methods if the those methods are achieving the same goal as old methods. In Hebrews 10:24-25, the goal is to edify, not to gather together in the same physical location. This is not a Fess. It maybe informative for some. Many people like to go to a church building it is Your choice where you want to fellowship. You don't have to agree with the Post. God honors people going to Church where Pastors preach his truth as well. So, if you want to go online like many, that is your choice, Online ministry can be helpful to Christians. But for you to say my Post is unhelpful is not true. God calls Ministers to preach in Churches. Meaning Church buildings all over the Nation. I did not say that your post is unhelpful. I made a general statement aimed at the general population. Nor did I downplay the effectiveness of people being a part of a physical church campus. Anyway, where God calls ministers to preach is up to God, not us. |
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Online ministry is a means to an end. I find it unhelpful to fuss about new methods if the those methods are achieving the same goal as old methods. In Hebrews 10:24-25, the goal is to edify, not to gather together in the same physical location. This is not a Fess. It maybe informative for some. Many people like to go to a church building it is Your choice where you want to fellowship. You don't have to agree with the Post. God honors people going to Church where Pastors preach his truth as well. So, if you want to go online like many, that is your choice, Online ministry can be helpful to Christians. But for you to say my Post is unhelpful is not true. God calls Ministers to preach in Churches. Meaning Church buildings all over the Nation. I did not say that your post is unhelpful. I made a general statement aimed at the general population. Nor did I downplay the effectiveness of people being a part of a physical church campus. Anyway, where God calls ministers to preach is up to God, not us. Sees you tried to downplay my Post. I know God calls his ministers. Now sure why you keep this going, I am a child of God, I don't want to debate on this Topic either. |
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Edited by
Dodo_David
on
Mon 07/22/13 07:37 PM
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Online ministry is a means to an end. I find it unhelpful to fuss about new methods if the those methods are achieving the same goal as old methods. In Hebrews 10:24-25, the goal is to edify, not to gather together in the same physical location. This is not a Fess. It maybe informative for some. Many people like to go to a church building it is Your choice where you want to fellowship. You don't have to agree with the Post. God honors people going to Church where Pastors preach his truth as well. So, if you want to go online like many, that is your choice, Online ministry can be helpful to Christians. But for you to say my Post is unhelpful is not true. God calls Ministers to preach in Churches. Meaning Church buildings all over the Nation. I did not say that your post is unhelpful. I made a general statement aimed at the general population. Nor did I downplay the effectiveness of people being a part of a physical church campus. Anyway, where God calls ministers to preach is up to God, not us. Sees you tried to downplay my Post. I know God calls his ministers. Now sure why you keep this going, I am a child of God, I don't want to debate on this Topic either. I am not downplaying anything. I responded to a topic that was mentioned in this thread, nothing more. |
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It appears to me that there is a misunderstanding of what an online church is. I think Not. |
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Question: "Why is church membership important?" Answer: The universal Church—the Body of Christ (Romans 12:5)—is composed of all true believers in Christ, but there is nothing in the Bible about “membership” in a local church assembly. As believers, we have our names written in the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 20:12), which is the only “membership roll” spoken of in Scripture. The New Testament churches apparently had no need of formal membership, relying instead on God to gather together believers in a local body. “And the Lord added to them day by day those that were being saved” (Acts 2:47). This verse indicates that salvation was a prerequisite for being “added” to the church. Churches today who require salvation before membership are simply following the biblical model. see 2 Corinthians 6:14-18. Although there is no scriptural mandate for church membership, there is certainly nothing to prohibit it. Church membership is a way of officially identifying oneself with a local body of believers. Church membership is a statement that a Christian is in agreement with that local church and is willing to be identified as a representative of it. Church membership is also valuable for organizational purposes and a good way of determining who is allowed to vote on important church decisions and/or who is involved in official church positions and functions. Church membership is not required of Christians. It is simply a way of saying, "I am a Christian and I believe _____ church is a good church." www.gotquestions.org/church-membership |
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Question: "Why is church membership important?" Answer: The universal Church—the Body of Christ (Romans 12:5)—is composed of all true believers in Christ, but there is nothing in the Bible about “membership” in a local church assembly. As believers, we have our names written in the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 20:12), which is the only “membership roll” spoken of in Scripture. The New Testament churches apparently had no need of formal membership, relying instead on God to gather together believers in a local body. “And the Lord added to them day by day those that were being saved” (Acts 2:47). This verse indicates that salvation was a prerequisite for being “added” to the church. Churches today who require salvation before membership are simply following the biblical model. see 2 Corinthians 6:14-18. Although there is no scriptural mandate for church membership, there is certainly nothing to prohibit it. Church membership is a way of officially identifying oneself with a local body of believers. Church membership is a statement that a Christian is in agreement with that local church and is willing to be identified as a representative of it. Church membership is also valuable for organizational purposes and a good way of determining who is allowed to vote on important church decisions and/or who is involved in official church positions and functions. Church membership is not required of Christians. It is simply a way of saying, "I am a Christian and I believe _____ church is a good church." www.gotquestions.org/church-membership
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