Topic: Female Munchaussen
msharmony's photo
Wed 11/22/17 09:51 AM
Edited by msharmony on Wed 11/22/17 09:53 AM
Munchausen syndrome is a factitious disorder, a mental disorder in which a person repeatedly and deliberately acts as if he or she has a physical or mental illness when he or she is not really sick. Munchausen syndrome is considered a mental illness because it is associated with severe emotional difficulties

In an age that seems more populous with the mentally/emotionally unstable, and the sane but narcissistic and vain ... is it possible we have embarked upon a new cultural trend of Female Munchaussen?

Women have been known to harm their own CHILDREN for the attention and sympathy it heaps upon them, could women now be doing this to men they don't care much about with allegations of harassment and rape?

Does anyone believe its possible that there is 'fame by association' which motivates many women that may otherwise feel invisible or overlooked?

I am finding this surge of "he harassed/raped me a decade or two ago" scary and suspect, to say the least.

I don't want women to feel like they cant talk for fear of being accused of lying, but I also don't want them feeling like they can lie with impunity because of the fear others have of calling out the possibility of their lie

and then there is the high susceptibility of people being 'convinced' by others that they were harassed/raped when they may not have seen it that way of their own accord at the time.

What is the happy medium?

I think an accusation of lying (not proven) doesn't come with the consequences that accusations of rape and harassment(not proven) do.

Serchin4MyRedWine's photo
Wed 11/22/17 10:05 AM
Seems to me that a lot of these woman want their 15 minutes of fame or jump on the band wagon for monetary gain.
You don't see a lot of women come out 15 years later accusing Joe the plumber of sexual harassment...it is always someone wealthy or political.

I am not saying that all these women are lying but there should be some sort of statute of limitations like in criminal cases.

If you don't report it soon after it occurs...say within 3 years then you should not be able to bring accusations and ruin someones career. This of course would not pertain to children who for many reasons might not be able to report such transgressions.

no photo
Wed 11/22/17 11:21 AM
Sounds like Hillary

Tom4Uhere's photo
Wed 11/22/17 11:41 AM
Females are not the only ones that suffer from Munchhausen Syndrome.

What you are describing is what is called Dishonesty. People that practice dishonesty are called Liars.

Munchhausen Syndrome is something that is not on purpose. The mind actually creates the symptoms and those affected show actual maladies. Many seek medical assistance not understanding that they are creating the symptoms themselves. Many are treated for the symptoms they caused then prescribed placebos for the imagined illness.

There is a condition that can make a woman actually believe she had been raped but wasn't, its called Delusion.
Some delusions are so intricate that they are hard to tell fact from fiction.
Delusion is not new or in an upward trend.
What is on an upward trend is awareness of delusion in public reference. That is because human beings are advancing to a higher stage of enlightenment. So we 'see' more examples of delusion than in the past.

msharmony's photo
Wed 11/22/17 11:59 AM
Mayo clinic says this about how Munchausens is diagnosed:

The doctor bases his or her diagnosis on the exclusion of actual physical or other psychiatric disorders, and his or her observation of the patient's attitude and behavior. However, personality concerns are prominent and can make it that much more confusing to sort out organic from factitious etiologies.


Just 'observation' of attitude and behavior. So nothing that concretely proves a cause or intention. I believe all choices are intentional, even if all reasoning isn't.

I agree with what seems to be more examples of delusion than in the past though.

Tom4Uhere's photo
Wed 11/22/17 01:22 PM
I believe all choices are intentional

They are, in a rational mind.
Problem is, rational minds are difficult to find, there's always some delusion or damage involved (think alcohol and drug abuse, OCD and abuse).
Munchhausen Syndrome is a form of delusion with physical manifestations that are often self-inflicted.

Consequently, a rape victim would have to self-inflict upon herself, the conditions of rape for it to be considered a Munchhausen Syndrome event.

msharmony's photo
Wed 11/22/17 02:28 PM

I believe all choices are intentional

They are, in a rational mind.
Problem is, rational minds are difficult to find, there's always some delusion or damage involved (think alcohol and drug abuse, OCD and abuse).
Munchhausen Syndrome is a form of delusion with physical manifestations that are often self-inflicted.

Consequently, a rape victim would have to self-inflict upon herself, the conditions of rape for it to be considered a Munchhausen Syndrome event.


excuse the technical inaccuracy, there is plain Munchausen where one harms the self and there is munchausen by proxy where one harms someone under their care, I used the term to compare to the current trend with the understanding that underneath it is a tendency to be fueled by the attention the 'afflicted' receives by their deceptions.

There is no technical term, yet, for harm that is not self or someone under ones care ,,, but thats not to say there cant or wont be eventually.

no photo
Wed 11/22/17 02:51 PM
is it possible we have embarked upon a new cultural trend of Female Munchaussen?

Not really. Munchausen people tend to keep doing it over and over and over again. Not to mention causing themselves harm and then embellishing the symptoms.
Sometimes done consciously, sometimes just because it's part of a routine or pattern they've established through habituated behavior.


At best you have more of the military imposter/impersonation "trend" going on.

Some people lie about serving in the military, sometimes they show up to parades or veterans celebrations wearing a uniform and medals they bought at the surplus store or ebay, or go online to places like online dating site forums and say they've been in the military, making up service history, when they've never actually served in the military.

Some veterans embellish their service. Maybe they served behind a desk in Washington their entire career but tell people they served in Iraq and killed a bunch of people.

But that's very different than a diagnosis of "Munchausen."

could women now be doing this to men they don't care much about with allegations of harassment and rape?

What do you mean "now?"
You've never heard of the inquisition, or Salem witchtrials, or McCarthyism?
Hell, you've never had your mother take you on a guilt trip?

Does anyone believe its possible that there is 'fame by association' which motivates many women that may otherwise feel invisible or overlooked?

You mean like Kato Kaelin? Or Turtle on Entourage. Or Hillary after Bill became president?

then there is the high susceptibility of people being 'convinced' by others that they were harassed/raped when they may not have seen it that way of their own accord at the time.

There is also the phenomena in the 70's-90's when all these kids were coming forward with stories about how they were molested but it turned out a large percentage of them were untrue.

The kids were telling the therapists what they thought the therapist wanted to hear, the therapists were kinda pressuring the kids to confess to it happening, or the parents were wanting to hurt their (ex) spouse and the kids were picking up on it.
In many cases the kids built memories of themselves being molested by their parent/priest/teacher/friend, whomever. Completely false memories, but to them it actually happened. They could "see" it clearly, like it "happened yesterday."

The greatest compulsive liars put a kernel of truth in their lies and build memories around them so the lie becomes the truth in their head they can believe.

What is the happy medium?

There isn't one.
You aren't really describing outcomes or goals so much as different processes by which people fulfill a desired outcome or goal.

I think an accusation of lying (not proven) doesn't come with the consequences that accusations of rape and harassment(not proven) do.

Of course. For many reasons.
I mean everyone lies, to some degree. But most people see themselves as honest people.
Most people don't rape or harass.
People tend to be more strict against things that differ from themselves.
At best they may more severely condemn the things they do but don't want to be seen as doing, but that has more to do with virtue signaling and group hierarchy.

IOW of course there is a difference between intragroup rule enforcement and intergroup rule enforcement even though the means of enforcement is similar or uses the same process.

I believe all choices are intentional, even if all reasoning isn't.

Huh?
That doesn't make much sense.
Might as well say "everything you do or don't do is conscious, deliberate choice, but thinking isn't intentional."

Personally, I'd be more inclined to say not all choices are intentional, but all reasoning is.

I mean you've never caught yourself tapping your foot or bouncing your leg in the waiting room at the doctors office not really knowing precisely how long you've been doing it? But you have come up with a reason for doing so without having chosen to think about why you've done it?

msharmony's photo
Wed 11/22/17 05:10 PM

is it possible we have embarked upon a new cultural trend of Female Munchaussen?

Not really. Munchausen people tend to keep doing it over and over and over again. Not to mention causing themselves harm and then embellishing the symptoms.
Sometimes done consciously, sometimes just because it's part of a routine or pattern they've established through habituated behavior.


At best you have more of the military imposter/impersonation "trend" going on.

Some people lie about serving in the military, sometimes they show up to parades or veterans celebrations wearing a uniform and medals they bought at the surplus store or ebay, or go online to places like online dating site forums and say they've been in the military, making up service history, when they've never actually served in the military.

Some veterans embellish their service. Maybe they served behind a desk in Washington their entire career but tell people they served in Iraq and killed a bunch of people.

But that's very different than a diagnosis of "Munchausen."

could women now be doing this to men they don't care much about with allegations of harassment and rape?

What do you mean "now?"
You've never heard of the inquisition, or Salem witchtrials, or McCarthyism?
Hell, you've never had your mother take you on a guilt trip?

Does anyone believe its possible that there is 'fame by association' which motivates many women that may otherwise feel invisible or overlooked?

You mean like Kato Kaelin? Or Turtle on Entourage. Or Hillary after Bill became president?

then there is the high susceptibility of people being 'convinced' by others that they were harassed/raped when they may not have seen it that way of their own accord at the time.

There is also the phenomena in the 70's-90's when all these kids were coming forward with stories about how they were molested but it turned out a large percentage of them were untrue.

The kids were telling the therapists what they thought the therapist wanted to hear, the therapists were kinda pressuring the kids to confess to it happening, or the parents were wanting to hurt their (ex) spouse and the kids were picking up on it.
In many cases the kids built memories of themselves being molested by their parent/priest/teacher/friend, whomever. Completely false memories, but to them it actually happened. They could "see" it clearly, like it "happened yesterday."

The greatest compulsive liars put a kernel of truth in their lies and build memories around them so the lie becomes the truth in their head they can believe.

What is the happy medium?

There isn't one.
You aren't really describing outcomes or goals so much as different processes by which people fulfill a desired outcome or goal.

I think an accusation of lying (not proven) doesn't come with the consequences that accusations of rape and harassment(not proven) do.

Of course. For many reasons.
I mean everyone lies, to some degree. But most people see themselves as honest people.
Most people don't rape or harass.
People tend to be more strict against things that differ from themselves.
At best they may more severely condemn the things they do but don't want to be seen as doing, but that has more to do with virtue signaling and group hierarchy.

IOW of course there is a difference between intragroup rule enforcement and intergroup rule enforcement even though the means of enforcement is similar or uses the same process.

I believe all choices are intentional, even if all reasoning isn't.

Huh?
That doesn't make much sense.
Might as well say "everything you do or don't do is conscious, deliberate choice, but thinking isn't intentional."

Personally, I'd be more inclined to say not all choices are intentional, but all reasoning is.

I mean you've never caught yourself tapping your foot or bouncing your leg in the waiting room at the doctors office not really knowing precisely how long you've been doing it? But you have come up with a reason for doing so without having chosen to think about why you've done it?


That inspires another thread about 'choice'

Tom4Uhere's photo
Wed 11/22/17 06:20 PM
I used the term to compare to the current trend with the understanding that underneath it is a tendency to be fueled by the attention the 'afflicted' receives by their deceptions.

You have described most of the adult human population that participates in media exchange.

You would be hard pressed to find an example of someone that is not using people or other means to gain attention. Plus, if you were to look, you would probably find that nearly every example deals with some sort of deception. If not towards others, an internal deception.

If you need a term for it...how about...

BurgerKing Syndrome
Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie
Me Me Me
I want it my way and I want it now
If I can't have it you shouldn't either

no photo
Wed 11/22/17 08:37 PM


I say give them all a polygraph..spock




IgorFrankensteen's photo
Fri 11/24/17 11:55 AM
I think there's something more subtle, and much more common going on.

I have seen the same general behavior again and again in my life.

It starts with the fact that various parts of human society very much are a mess. All of our existence is a mixed up goulash of intellectual pursuits and business pursuits and sexual drives and pursuits. Various groups of humans have tried to organize everything (religions, philosophies, social structures, class structures, etc), but there's never been either agreement between advocates for organizing them, or functional compatibility between the various pursuits.

Even within each element, there are contradictions and inconsistencies. In particular, there is no pursuit wherein there is complete agreement about the role that ego and self-serving choices play.

The main result of all that, is that a lot of people are confused and uncomfortable a lot of the time, while trying to make headway in each area. Some are eager to take extra advantage because of the confusions about where accomplishment ends, and persecution or abuse begins.

People do in the moment, what they think makes sense, and what they think they are SUPPOSED to do, whether they feel entirely happy about it or not, and that includes both the people who are committing possible abuses, as well as the people who are putting up with those abuses.

In this area, we end up with a lot of sexual aggression going on, which very often is expected and tolerated by the victims at the time, because they think they are SUPPOSED to have to deal with this. And many times, the people committing the aggression, think that THEY are supposed to do what they are doing.

But though the people on the receiving end accept it as being according to the rules they THINK are in force at the time, they never actually feel good about it. And years later, when this kind of movement blossoms, people who accepted what really WAS abuse in the past, will now allow themselves to object, as they would not allow themselves to object before.

And there is an add on to all of it, too. This might be where a bit of this "Munchausen Syndrome" might come it. The victims of the past abuses, upon seeing others 'rewarded" for having been abused and for coming forward, will more or less accidentally magnify what they went through, as well as completely ignore that the person who "victimized" them, might have been as much under the control of the mode of behavior of the days as they were.

It's subtle and complicated, but basically I'm suggesting that we are likely to see BOTH genuine horrible truths being revealed, AND overly exaggerated minor incidents being blown out of proportion in all this.

Figuring out which is which in such syndromes is never easy. It certainly doesn't boil down to "if she didn't say anything back then, then she's lying or deluding herself now."


msharmony's photo
Fri 11/24/17 12:10 PM
Edited by msharmony on Fri 11/24/17 12:15 PM
it is further complicated in my opinion by how subjective 'abuse' can be in terms of self observation.

like with discipline from parents for instance (spanking), whether it is 'abusive' is dependent largely on the recipients feelings on it and the effects of it on that recipient.

Acts of flirtation are very similar, imho, in terms of subjectivity in whether they are considered 'harassment' or 'abuse' or some other negative action.

Like I have said before, women can be diverse, some can find a cat call or a 'groping' a complimentary gesture or a gesture of attraction or validation of 'sexiness' and therefore either shrug it off or seek it out.

and other women find these same gestures 'abusive' or harassing or offensive.


And in plenty of cases, whether it is from a desired suiter or an undesired suiter, and whether that desired suiter follows through, also influences how it will be perceived at a later date.

But a guy is not to know which type of woman he is dealing with without 'testing the waters' so to speak.

And it seems like a whole lot of people who aren't offended in that moment(for whatever reason) are later somehow convinced through what a third party says that they SHOULD have taken offense.

To me, offense is very subjective and personal and therefore not someone anyone else should have to make you aware you are a victim of, because NOT everyone is offended by the same things.


IgorFrankensteen's photo
Fri 11/24/17 01:10 PM

it is further complicated in my opinion by how subjective 'abuse' can be in terms of self observation.

like with discipline from parents for instance (spanking), whether it is 'abusive' is dependent largely on the recipients feelings on it and the effects of it on that recipient.

Acts of flirtation are very similar, imho, in terms of subjectivity in whether they are considered 'harassment' or 'abuse' or some other negative action.

Like I have said before, women can be diverse, some can find a cat call or a 'groping' a complimentary gesture or a gesture of attraction or validation of 'sexiness' and therefore either shrug it off or seek it out.

and other women find these same gestures 'abusive' or harassing or offensive.


And in plenty of cases, whether it is from a desired suiter or an undesired suiter, and whether that desired suiter follows through, also influences how it will be perceived at a later date.

But a guy is not to know which type of woman he is dealing with without 'testing the waters' so to speak.

And it seems like a whole lot of people who aren't offended in that moment(for whatever reason) are later somehow convinced through what a third party says that they SHOULD have taken offense.

To me, offense is very subjective and personal and therefore not someone anyone else should have to make you aware you are a victim of, because NOT everyone is offended by the same things.




Very well said, better than I did above. I agree.

And another aspect of this which is more difficult to talk about, especially while tempers are hot as they are, is that our culture has many instances within it where abuse is actually encouraged, both by observers, and by the "victims." In a way.

What I'm thinking of here, is the confusion that a lot of males go though, where it is hinted to them that showing sexual aggression is a necessary way to prove that they care about or genuinely desire the female. Especially among the young, I have seen that cause a LOT of problems over the years. Just on the lowest level, where as young would be lovers, we heard again and again that the male has to "make the first move" if anything at all is going to happen, caused all sorts of confusion.

And again, later in life, males who were essentially "following social orders" so to speak, could end up being pilloried as abusive swine, even though in a real way, they were victims too.

Tom4Uhere's photo
Fri 11/24/17 01:40 PM
There's a Caveman Bob story in this somewhere.
The point being that over time, concepts in society change.
What was normal no longer is.

In the past, children were paddled when they needed discipline.
Now, paddling a child is considered an abuse.
Should we persecute every parent that has ever paddled their child?
It is abuse?

In the past, a wife was a belonging (property).
The husband controlled her.
Then came suffrage and women began having rights.

In the past,men were depicted as superior
while women were depicted as objects of desire.
People were bombarded with this by television and movies.
A man was expected to have relations with women and women were expected to comply. It was the man that set the behavior patterns.
Now, we live in a world of individualism.
Persecuting anyone for, 'then' normal behavior,
based on 'now' normal behavior is ludicrous.

Rape is rape, has been rape since society deemed it defined as rape. Womanizing (Sexual Harassment) is not rape. Sexual harassment is a newer concept than rape. It deals with the switch to individualism. The self-perception of worth has changed recently.

"Within our lifetimes", rape has always been a crime and should be dealt with when it happens. Sexual harassment is is a relatively new concept within our lifetime (last 100 years). There are many women still alive today that have suffered sexual harassment before sexual harassment was a crime. Just like there are many of us that have been paddled.

Rape and Murder are among the few crimes that have no statute of limitations. Meaning that you can be persecuted for those crimes as long as you are alive. You should be.

However, individual expression was not always as it is now. A woman that flaunted her sexuality to men was, in that time, asking to have sex. Society has changed these perceptions now, holding men to a relatively new standard of behavior for behaviors of the past.

Now, a woman, or man for that matter, has the protection of society to express their sexual preference individually. Permissions are no longer implied, it must be specifically given personally. This was not the case in the past. In the past, sexual advances were implied to mean you wanted to have sex. Saying no after advances get hot, indicated that you were just playing hard to get. Thus, the man redoubled their efforts to get the prize.

Thing is, we are still in the transitioning period.