Hi
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Perhaps. We all have to find our own path. Christianity, for me, is pretty simple. I have love for God and trust the knowledge and guidance of The Word. I respect him and his 'house', so I follow the 'rules' of his house, just as I did the rules in my parents house, when I lived there. Or the 'rules' of society while I live in it. For me, do no harm is the most important, but too minimalist a standard for eternal life.

As a humanist I don't believe in eternal life, I believe than man created the idea of God because 'he' is too arrogant to accept that when you die, you die just as any animal would do. I admit can't understand how it is possible to have 'love' for a theoretical being whose existence is unprovable. I can love fellow human beings, in different ways according to my relationship with them. I can also 'love' inanimate objects too, and in between I can love dogs and cats (some of them!). All a different kind of love but I'm really sorry I cannot 'love' or 'believe' in something I will never understand.

I spent many years trying to learn how to do it, but with no success, so I will remain happy in my humanist beliefs. I've been a humanist without realising it since my late teens when I gave up on being a Catholic. Only last year I discovered that humanism is itself a belief system and I joined my local group and also the national group.

It's growing. In Scotland there are more humanist weddings than Catholic and Church of Scotland combined. More than half the UK no longer claim allegiance to any religion, although Jews and Muslims are increasing in numbers. It's the Christian chuches (Anglican and Catholic) that are in steep decline.

I think it's the future of mankind.

Perhaps. It is very longstanding idea though, in comparison to other mere ideas. I believe that my human body and everything around it is not a cosmic accident but an intelligent design, so I believe in an intelligent creator, not out of arrogance, but out of what I consider logical assessment and alignment with my own observation and experience.

To me, God is as 'theoretical' as the Big Bang. Some theories seem more tested and true than others.

I hope mankind's future is more broad and free than any one belief system and I wish you the best in your personal path.

You know what?
I'm just going to come right out and say it
God is an ars%*@∆π
Good people suffer
Bad people prosper
All manner of wickedness is performed in gods name
Oh, but its all just a test of faith
It's just some brainwashing bullsh∆π that conceals its true self, and seeks to pervert people, 1 way or the other
To hell with religion, to hell with this Christian god
I will worship benevolence in any form, regardless of anything

Respectfully ...

I don't feel 'perverted' at all.

I don't know who these 'good' or 'bad' people are. I am not on anyone's shoulder every moment of their life to make that judgment.

I know all people are imperfect, learning and making good and bad choices along the way. I know living in a world with so many other people, that the domino effect can happen to more than the individual who initiates it.

There is no zero sum equation that comes out equal on both sides.

Then why do Christian churches have the seal of Solomon on them
Why do they really worship gods that they pretend they don't
What does the dove represent
Why is Jesus depicted performing mudras.
Why can't we have a real conversation about this

Because it's perverted and concealed

First off I need to acknowledge that what Tom said earlier describing God’s existence in terms of particle physics, is good, because a language that open-mindedly describes G-d, both glorifies G-d and helps people find their identity. All conscious beings find a purpose and identify with it. This life is the journey. It is unsafe to live our lives based on knowledge that is blind to what we do not know, but we do. We will all die.

It takes faith to receive power. It takes faith to give power. Because G-d is all knowing and all powerful, He does not need us to be perfect. Furthermore, in the New Testament, love can disconnected from whorship and anger can disconnected from loss, because of forgiveness. And in Heaven, all things will be made right. But in this life there are reasons why one might still want to live a moralistic religious life to avoid loss, and why one might want to accept love/forgiveness in order to have a solid identity. G-d loves us and cares about us.

I would suggest Google. I cannot speak for ALL of anyone. I know that I, as a Christian, and those Christians I know are not 'pretending' anything. I know a dove is a bird and has no other symbolism for me or anyone I know.

as far as a mudra, or as Google explains 'hand gestures', I am sure any gesture with the hand could mean any number of things and could mean nothing, especially in a drawing or still photo.

A 'real conversation' is fine, yet not very productive to me as a Christian, if it is about asking random questions on random things that are not central to Christian teaching.

The only certainties in life are death and taxes.



What about someone like me who has no faith? It's great to know that She loves all of us, but what does that love actually mean for someone who is unable to have the required belief? I know a woman who lost her cat. The stupid priest told her not to worry, the cat will come back. It didn't and my friend lost all her belief because of that priest. Another friend used to be a regular church goer until her husband died. She can't understand why a loving God would take him away from her and she has now lost all her belief.

Seems to me the church has a long way to go in helping people understand what Christianity is all about. Just saying that God loves all of us isn't good enough; it certainly wasn't for my two friends, and presumably many others. All the denominations have a lot of work to do with the faithful, a lot of teaching to do during sermons, but so far it seems they are missing out and losing members. If God did exist, I would imagine that She is tearing her hair out at some human activities. I suspect the problem is that when you are trying to convince people that a 'concept' is worth the time to worship, it is difficult to describe this concept in a way that people will understand and respond to in a positive way.

Remember that us humans invented 'God', mostly as a control mechanism (still used that way in the Catholic Chuch - I should know!) and isn't in any factual sense 'real'.

People come to believe and people lose their belief. This is how life happens.

It takes not only a faith but a selflessness to be a believer. As a believer, I do not premise my faith only on what happens to me, which others tend to and are encouraged to do in this world. There is nothing happening to me that has not happened to others, so my belief has to be on something other than rather those terrible things never happen to me.

Selflessness is understandably hard to come by and an obstacle in keeping faith. It is largely a choice of perception. One can focus on all the good and ask why or focus on the bad and ask why. As a believer, I find that my perception tends to go on all the good things that I believe as humans we dont necessarily 'deserve' but receive anyway. For me, it speaks to the Love of the creator when good things happen, it it speaks to the way his creation mirrors the creator's strength and endurance when bad things happen.

People do emphasize faith, but I personally believe the pre requisite to a steady faith is a selflessness to not be like the child always asking 'why me?" or "why not me?"

Enough said
Its axiomatic
I bow out
The magazines are in the corridor
Bible study twice a week

Church is the people, not the building. ... lol.

IT is not unquestionable, but the questions should be somewhat relevant for making a point.



for example, if a teacher gave a math equation that Jake gave John 2 apples and Sue gave John 2 apples and explained that John then had four apples. Students could ask things like What colors were John wearing, or What other fruit did Jake have, or how tall Sue was. And the teacher would not tell them they couldn't ask questions, but may request that to keep on topic, the questions be relevant to what is significant for solving the equation.


People answer things that they have an answer for, and for others, mostly things I personally feel are ammunition questions, researched about through Google sources CREATED to question religion and the faithful, people may not have an answer for.

I personally suggest research when I don't know something, I always have, whatever the topic. I am not here to be an expert, but just contribute perceptions like anyone else. But that is far from discouraging questions. .


As a Christian, my faith does not demand that I know every answer to every detail of every potential tangential question that could fall under the topic of Christianity or religion. I don't think there is any topic that most people could have all answers for in that manner. Google is a vast tool by which people can look up all kinds of things falling under the religion subject, but have little to do with the things that fuel faith or belief, or the teachings of The bible(for Christians) or other Holy books.

Then why tell me to use Google?
And my questions, which you so neatly swerved, and clearly had a point , which is why I used the word axiomatic, meaning a self evident truth , and had nothing to do with google

Finding the answers your self ...
You are very wise and kind.

I am going to have to understand Her that way too

Spirituality is not a political thing, it is a language used by real people, for real people, based on how people live their life and what people experience.

I knew what you meant R2. I think Msharmony did too.

I think it is a huge assumption to state what is 'self evident'.

I also think it is hard to believe anyone wants actual conversation after they curse God and call religion BS.


And I really swerved nothing. I answered the questions that I could and the others, I suggested Google for. I said to use Google because, regardless the topic, no one here has all the answers to every question, and regardless of topic, I ALWAYS DO suggest people research things for themselves.


WHat was the point, after a statement that there is no zero sum, of asking about obscure things like mudras and hexagrams, which are not part of the basics of Christian teachings or the reasons people have faith and aren't related to the statement about zero sums?

Oh but it is central.

You don’t have to fight till the death for other people to believe. Just follow your own virtues. As we are all adults on here (there are no children, except perhaps before God), let us do the work scouting things out.

There is a reason for things being mysterious, but if someone thinks Jesus’s statement “be like the doves” means go lay an egg, something is not right.

I also believe it means a well established principle. Meaning the truth is there for you to see, and it's a well established principle, that if you ask about it, we will completely deny it. So don't ask
Zero sums?
Obscure?
Mysterious
Flog a dead horse