Topic: Disturbing New Photos From Abu Ghraib
chuck366's photo
Sat 03/01/08 03:00 PM
good

madisonman's photo
Sat 03/01/08 03:04 PM




now show them pictures of what they do to us when we get captured.....


Thank-you!!

Two wrongs dont make a right sweety!!

SGT Morris (E-5)
11B (veteran- reg Army)



come on old sarge, we were just having a little fun. besides their alive aint they? just kiddin brother.

you know for the most part I wholeheartedly agree with you, my main gripe is lefty's saying we're just like them, when to be like them would mean we'd have to be removing body parts or raping their kids and sh1t,,,we aint nowhere even in the same timezone as that, and i would just like to hear some lefty admit that.

FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- A soldier convicted of rape and murder in an attack on an Iraqi teenager and her family was sentenced Saturday to 110 years in prison.


The military says Pfc. Jesse Spielman will also be reduced in rank and be dishonorably discharged.

The sentence was part of a plea agreement attorneys for Pfc. Jesse Spielman had made with prosecutors.

It set the number of years he could serve in prison, regardless of the jury's recommendation.

The jury had recommended life with parole, a sentence under which he would have to wait longer for the possibility of parole. He will be eligible for parole after 10 years.

Spielman was convicted late Friday of rape, conspiracy to commit rape, housebreaking with intent to rape and four counts of felony murder.

Military prosecutors did not say Spielman took part in the rape or murders but alleged that he went to the house knowing what the others intended to do and served as a lookout.

Spielman, 23, of Chambersburg, Pennsylvania, received the longest sentence of four soldiers who have been convicted. Three other soldiers pleaded guilty under agreements with prosecutors for their roles in the assault and were given sentences ranging from five to 100 years.

Spielman's grandmother, Nancy Hess, collapsed outside the courtroom after the verdict was read; prosecutor Maj. William Fischbach ran to her side and called 911. Soldiers in Spielman's unit fanned the woman with napkins.

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Marine convicted of conspiring to murder
Spielman's sister, Paige Gerlach, screamed: "I hate the government. You people put him [in Iraq] and now, this happened."

Defense attorneys left immediately after the verdict was returned and could not be reached for comment.

Spielman had pleaded guilty on Monday to lesser charges of conspiracy to obstructing justice, arson, wrongfully touching a corpse and drinking. The 110-year sentence encompasses those crimes, too.

The case stemmed from the March 12, 2006, rape and slaying of Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, 14, and the killings of her parents and sister. The attack took place in Mahmoudiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad.

Prosecutors rested their case Thursday amid struggles to overcome a fellow soldier's recanting of a story that Spielman acted as a lookout.

Spc. James Barker said in earlier testimony that he had allowed investigators to draft sworn statements for him that implicated Spielman.

Barker testified Wednesday that several portions of the document were untrue, including references to Spielman's role in the conspiracy to attack the family and his knowledge of plans to rape the girl.

But Sgt. Paul E. Cortez testified that Spielman stood guard. Cortez said Spielman was within a few feet of the others as they held down the screaming girl and did nothing to stop them.

Barker, Cortez and another soldier, Pfc. Bryan L. Howard, pleaded guilty for their roles.

Steven D. Green, who was discharged from the Army before being charged, faces a possible death sentence when he is tried in federal court in Kentucky. He has pleaded not guilty to charges that include murder and sexual assault.

Barker and Cortez gave investigators conflicting statements about whether Spielman knew of the plan to rape the girl and whether he was present when they discussed it over whiskey and gin, according to testimony.

During their courts-martial, Barker and Cortez testified they took turns raping the girl while Green shot and killed her mother, father and younger sister. Green shot the girl in the head after raping her, they said.

The girl's body was set on fire with kerosene to destroy the evidence, according to previous testimony. E-mail to a friend
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/04/army.rape.slaying.ap/index.html

no photo
Sat 03/01/08 03:16 PM
mad....what are you trying to say...crimes happen in every country everyday so why should Iraq be any different?....the big difference in Iraq now thought is that the victims get justice.

Drivinmenutz's photo
Sat 03/01/08 03:21 PM





now show them pictures of what they do to us when we get captured.....


Thank-you!!

Two wrongs dont make a right sweety!!

SGT Morris (E-5)
11B (veteran- reg Army)



come on old sarge, we were just having a little fun. besides their alive aint they? just kiddin brother.

you know for the most part I wholeheartedly agree with you, my main gripe is lefty's saying we're just like them, when to be like them would mean we'd have to be removing body parts or raping their kids and sh1t,,,we aint nowhere even in the same timezone as that, and i would just like to hear some lefty admit that.

FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- A soldier convicted of rape and murder in an attack on an Iraqi teenager and her family was sentenced Saturday to 110 years in prison.


The military says Pfc. Jesse Spielman will also be reduced in rank and be dishonorably discharged.

The sentence was part of a plea agreement attorneys for Pfc. Jesse Spielman had made with prosecutors.

It set the number of years he could serve in prison, regardless of the jury's recommendation.

The jury had recommended life with parole, a sentence under which he would have to wait longer for the possibility of parole. He will be eligible for parole after 10 years.

Spielman was convicted late Friday of rape, conspiracy to commit rape, housebreaking with intent to rape and four counts of felony murder.

Military prosecutors did not say Spielman took part in the rape or murders but alleged that he went to the house knowing what the others intended to do and served as a lookout.

Spielman, 23, of Chambersburg, Pennsylvania, received the longest sentence of four soldiers who have been convicted. Three other soldiers pleaded guilty under agreements with prosecutors for their roles in the assault and were given sentences ranging from five to 100 years.

Spielman's grandmother, Nancy Hess, collapsed outside the courtroom after the verdict was read; prosecutor Maj. William Fischbach ran to her side and called 911. Soldiers in Spielman's unit fanned the woman with napkins.

Don't Miss
Marine gets 15 years in Iraqi civilian's murder
Marine convicted of conspiring to murder
Spielman's sister, Paige Gerlach, screamed: "I hate the government. You people put him [in Iraq] and now, this happened."

Defense attorneys left immediately after the verdict was returned and could not be reached for comment.

Spielman had pleaded guilty on Monday to lesser charges of conspiracy to obstructing justice, arson, wrongfully touching a corpse and drinking. The 110-year sentence encompasses those crimes, too.

The case stemmed from the March 12, 2006, rape and slaying of Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, 14, and the killings of her parents and sister. The attack took place in Mahmoudiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad.

Prosecutors rested their case Thursday amid struggles to overcome a fellow soldier's recanting of a story that Spielman acted as a lookout.

Spc. James Barker said in earlier testimony that he had allowed investigators to draft sworn statements for him that implicated Spielman.

Barker testified Wednesday that several portions of the document were untrue, including references to Spielman's role in the conspiracy to attack the family and his knowledge of plans to rape the girl.

But Sgt. Paul E. Cortez testified that Spielman stood guard. Cortez said Spielman was within a few feet of the others as they held down the screaming girl and did nothing to stop them.

Barker, Cortez and another soldier, Pfc. Bryan L. Howard, pleaded guilty for their roles.

Steven D. Green, who was discharged from the Army before being charged, faces a possible death sentence when he is tried in federal court in Kentucky. He has pleaded not guilty to charges that include murder and sexual assault.

Barker and Cortez gave investigators conflicting statements about whether Spielman knew of the plan to rape the girl and whether he was present when they discussed it over whiskey and gin, according to testimony.

During their courts-martial, Barker and Cortez testified they took turns raping the girl while Green shot and killed her mother, father and younger sister. Green shot the girl in the head after raping her, they said.

The girl's body was set on fire with kerosene to destroy the evidence, according to previous testimony. E-mail to a friend
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/04/army.rape.slaying.ap/index.html


you are starting to make me angry... Madisonman...until you travel to iraq or afganistan and in and live among them you have little right to talk. Maybe you should try actually doing something with yourself instead of blindly criticizing those who fight for you. I hope one day you live a life as someone in one of these third world countries. You may actually learn something about life then.

no photo
Sat 03/01/08 03:32 PM
you are starting to make me angry... Madisonman...until you travel to iraq or afganistan and in and live among them you have little right to talk. Maybe you should try actually doing something with yourself instead of blindly criticizing those who fight for you. I hope one day you live a life as someone in one of these third world countries. You may actually learn something about life then.


it's difficult not to but be angry when he and others like him hide behind a screen and say what they would not have the guts to say in person..he's not worth getting upset over...there are many more of us who can't say enough or do enough to show our appreciation of you and others who put their life on the line to protect our way of life...to some that is not a worthy cause because they can't grasp the reality of life but it's our duty to protect those who can't protect themselves...

no photo
Sat 03/01/08 03:33 PM
Edited by northrn_yanke on Sat 03/01/08 03:33 PM
glasses

Drivinmenutz's photo
Sat 03/01/08 03:40 PM
i hear ya yanke....i need to just ignore those who choose to be ignorant. I do get very heated about people attacking our soldiers and what they do so blindly. It makes my blood boil. To them this is all a game. Thank you for realising sacrifice and selflessness. I as well as all the soldiers overseas and the other ones that have been overseas, appreciate your kind words more than you know.

madisonman's photo
Sat 03/01/08 04:26 PM






now show them pictures of what they do to us when we get captured.....


Thank-you!!

Two wrongs dont make a right sweety!!

SGT Morris (E-5)
11B (veteran- reg Army)



come on old sarge, we were just having a little fun. besides their alive aint they? just kiddin brother.

you know for the most part I wholeheartedly agree with you, my main gripe is lefty's saying we're just like them, when to be like them would mean we'd have to be removing body parts or raping their kids and sh1t,,,we aint nowhere even in the same timezone as that, and i would just like to hear some lefty admit that.

FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- A soldier convicted of rape and murder in an attack on an Iraqi teenager and her family was sentenced Saturday to 110 years in prison.


The military says Pfc. Jesse Spielman will also be reduced in rank and be dishonorably discharged.

The sentence was part of a plea agreement attorneys for Pfc. Jesse Spielman had made with prosecutors.

It set the number of years he could serve in prison, regardless of the jury's recommendation.

The jury had recommended life with parole, a sentence under which he would have to wait longer for the possibility of parole. He will be eligible for parole after 10 years.

Spielman was convicted late Friday of rape, conspiracy to commit rape, housebreaking with intent to rape and four counts of felony murder.

Military prosecutors did not say Spielman took part in the rape or murders but alleged that he went to the house knowing what the others intended to do and served as a lookout.

Spielman, 23, of Chambersburg, Pennsylvania, received the longest sentence of four soldiers who have been convicted. Three other soldiers pleaded guilty under agreements with prosecutors for their roles in the assault and were given sentences ranging from five to 100 years.

Spielman's grandmother, Nancy Hess, collapsed outside the courtroom after the verdict was read; prosecutor Maj. William Fischbach ran to her side and called 911. Soldiers in Spielman's unit fanned the woman with napkins.

Don't Miss
Marine gets 15 years in Iraqi civilian's murder
Marine convicted of conspiring to murder
Spielman's sister, Paige Gerlach, screamed: "I hate the government. You people put him [in Iraq] and now, this happened."

Defense attorneys left immediately after the verdict was returned and could not be reached for comment.

Spielman had pleaded guilty on Monday to lesser charges of conspiracy to obstructing justice, arson, wrongfully touching a corpse and drinking. The 110-year sentence encompasses those crimes, too.

The case stemmed from the March 12, 2006, rape and slaying of Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, 14, and the killings of her parents and sister. The attack took place in Mahmoudiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad.

Prosecutors rested their case Thursday amid struggles to overcome a fellow soldier's recanting of a story that Spielman acted as a lookout.

Spc. James Barker said in earlier testimony that he had allowed investigators to draft sworn statements for him that implicated Spielman.

Barker testified Wednesday that several portions of the document were untrue, including references to Spielman's role in the conspiracy to attack the family and his knowledge of plans to rape the girl.

But Sgt. Paul E. Cortez testified that Spielman stood guard. Cortez said Spielman was within a few feet of the others as they held down the screaming girl and did nothing to stop them.

Barker, Cortez and another soldier, Pfc. Bryan L. Howard, pleaded guilty for their roles.

Steven D. Green, who was discharged from the Army before being charged, faces a possible death sentence when he is tried in federal court in Kentucky. He has pleaded not guilty to charges that include murder and sexual assault.

Barker and Cortez gave investigators conflicting statements about whether Spielman knew of the plan to rape the girl and whether he was present when they discussed it over whiskey and gin, according to testimony.

During their courts-martial, Barker and Cortez testified they took turns raping the girl while Green shot and killed her mother, father and younger sister. Green shot the girl in the head after raping her, they said.

The girl's body was set on fire with kerosene to destroy the evidence, according to previous testimony. E-mail to a friend
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/04/army.rape.slaying.ap/index.html


you are starting to make me angry... Madisonman...until you travel to iraq or afganistan and in and live among them you have little right to talk. Maybe you should try actually doing something with yourself instead of blindly criticizing those who fight for you. I hope one day you live a life as someone in one of these third world countries. You may actually learn something about life then.
well as a father of a teen girl this sickens me yes I know its not the norm but you mentioned that we dont go around rapeing kids so I figured you may have forgotten about this episode

Drivinmenutz's photo
Sat 03/01/08 05:21 PM
crimes like those arecommonly committed by citizens of every country in the world. So yes soldiers are just as capable of committing crimes as civilians. Your point? You have no right to be sickened by american soldiers based on the few that have actually committed a crime. Please be a little more careful in the arguments you choose because it sounds like you are describing soldiers as animals and/or comparing them to terrorists.

madisonman's photo
Sat 03/01/08 05:34 PM
Edited by madisonman on Sat 03/01/08 06:01 PM

crimes like those arecommonly committed by citizens of every country in the world. So yes soldiers are just as capable of committing crimes as civilians. Your point? You have no right to be sickened by american soldiers based on the few that have actually committed a crime. Please be a little more careful in the arguments you choose because it sounds like you are describing soldiers as animals and/or comparing them to terrorists.
It would be safe to say that war brings out the animal in men and that is one reasone why war is never to be taken lightly and reasons should be found NOT to wage a war not reasons found or made up to wage one as is the case in Iraq and yes crimes are commited like this in the civilian world also but this crime is unusualy brutal

armydoc4u's photo
Sat 03/01/08 07:07 PM
you know what Im not going to defend those dudes at all, F'em, their undisciplined asses and all need to be locked away for the rest of their lives.

Are you saying that we're all like that? whats your point?

As a father of a teen girl myself, it wouldnt matter if i was or not, wrong is wrong and those guys were animals.

Of course you could blame it on not being allowed to have sex for a year, and no drinking or r&r,,,, give us some whorehouses and a beer or two and all will be fine.... just round up some hookers and ship'em over, you can keep all the other people, like the USO tours, politicians tours etc. hahahaha.

madisonman's photo
Sat 03/01/08 08:36 PM

you know what Im not going to defend those dudes at all, F'em, their undisciplined asses and all need to be locked away for the rest of their lives.

Are you saying that we're all like that? whats your point?

As a father of a teen girl myself, it wouldnt matter if i was or not, wrong is wrong and those guys were animals.

Of course you could blame it on not being allowed to have sex for a year, and no drinking or r&r,,,, give us some whorehouses and a beer or two and all will be fine.... just round up some hookers and ship'em over, you can keep all the other people, like the USO tours, politicians tours etc. hahahaha.
It never would have occured if Bush hadnt have trumped up the case for war and lied to the american public& world

armydoc4u's photo
Sat 03/01/08 08:42 PM


you know what Im not going to defend those dudes at all, F'em, their undisciplined asses and all need to be locked away for the rest of their lives.

Are you saying that we're all like that? whats your point?

As a father of a teen girl myself, it wouldnt matter if i was or not, wrong is wrong and those guys were animals.

Of course you could blame it on not being allowed to have sex for a year, and no drinking or r&r,,,, give us some whorehouses and a beer or two and all will be fine.... just round up some hookers and ship'em over, you can keep all the other people, like the USO tours, politicians tours etc. hahahaha.
It never would have occured if Bush hadnt have trumped up the case for war and lied to the american public& world


you know we reach some mutual understandings and agreements, then its back to you push push push, thats why no one likes your party anymore, give an inch and they want a mile. never good enough for you people (or bad enough).

I dont not buy into your assurtions that A. he lied, B. trumped up any damn thing.

but we can agree was those dudes did was disgusting, how would your bleeding heart liberalism punish them? its a new question for you to further this discussion.

Fanta46's photo
Sat 03/01/08 08:48 PM
Yet I bet you would defend these!!!



Deborah Schurman-Kauflin in CNN interview
Based on a one-year in-depth study, a researcher estimates there are about 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States who have had an average of four victims each.
Deborah Schurman-Kauflin of the Violent Crimes Institute in Atlanta analyzed 1,500 cases from January 1999 through April 2006 that included serial rapes, serial murders, sexual homicides and child molestation committed by illegal immigrants.

She found that while the offenders were located in 36 states, most were in states with the highest numbers of illegal immigrants. California had the most offenders, followed by Texas, Arizona, New Jersey, New York and Florida.


Schurman-Kauflin concluded that, based on a figure of 12 million illegal immigrants and the fact that more of this population is male than average, sex offenders among illegals make up a higher percentage than offenders in the general population.

She arrives at the figure of 240,000 offenders ? a conservative estimate, she says ? through public records showing about 2 percent of illegals apprehended are sex offenders.

"This translates to 93 sex offenders and 12 serial sexual offenders coming across U.S. borders illegally per day," she says.

She points out the 1,500 offenders in her study had a total of 5,999 victims, and each sex offender averaged four victims.

"This places the estimate for victimization numbers around 960,000 for the 88 months examined in this study," she declares.

Schurman-Kauflin breaks down the 1,500 cases reviewed this way:


525, or 35 percent, were child molestations

358, or 24 percent, were rapes

617, or 41 percent, were sexual homicides and serial murders
Of the child molestations, 47 percent of the victims were Hispanic, 36 percent Caucasian, 8 percent Asian, 6 percent African American and 3 percent other nationalities.

In 82 percent of the cases, she noted, the victims were known to their attackers.

"In those instances, the illegal immigrants typically gained access to the victims after having worked as a day laborer at or near the victims' homes," she says. "Victims ranged in age from 1 year old to 13 years old, with the average age being 6."

In her examination of the sex-related homicides, Schurman-Kauflin found the most common method was for an offender to break into a residence and ambush his victims.

Not only were victims raped, she said, but some ? 6 percent ? were mutilated.

"The crime scenes were very bloody, expressing intense, angry perpetrator personalities," she said. "Specifically, most victims were blitzed, rendered incapable of fighting back, and then raped and murdered. The most common method of killing was bludgeoning, followed by stabbing."

She found it especially disturbing that in 22 percent of all sex crimes committed by illegal immigrants, victims with physical and mental disabilities were targeted.

The highest number of sex offenders, according to the study, came from Mexico. El Salvador was the original home to the next highest number. Other countries of origin included Brazil, China, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Jamaica, Nicaragua, Puerto Rico, Russia, and Vietnam.

Nearly 63 percent of the offenders had been deported on another offense prior to the sex crime, the study showed. There was an average of three years of committing crimes such as DUI, assault or drug related offenses prior to being apprehended for a sexual offense.

In 81 percent of cases, offenders were drinking or using drugs prior to offending. Rapists and killers were more likely to use alcohol and drugs consistently than child molesters.

Only about 25 percent of offenders were found to have been stable within a community. In 31 percent of the crimes, the offenders entered into the communities where they offended within two months of the commission of their sex offenses.

But many, 79 percent, had been in the U.S. for more than one year before being arrested for a sex crime. They typically were known to the criminal justice system for prior, less serious offenses before they molested, raped or murdered, the study said.

Schurman-Kauflin concludes illegal immigrants gradually commit worse crimes and are continually released back into society or deported.

"Those who were deported simply returned illegally again," she says.

She points out that only 2 percent of the offenders in her study had no history of criminal behavior, beyond crossing the border illegally.

"There is a clear pattern of criminal escalation," she said.

They give these victims of crimes by American soldiers more justice than victims of crimes by illegal immigrants, and there are alot more crimes committed by illegals.

madisonman's photo
Sat 03/01/08 08:57 PM
I wouldnt defend them and I wouldnt let them in. I am not a bleeding heart liberal or a pacafist I try to keep it real. the democrats wish them in for votes the republicans for cheap labor. as a union man I am against the explotation of labor and to me mexico is exporting its poverty to america. NAFTA was sold as a way to help raise mexico and keep out illegals being that they could find jobs down there. Well Nafta has done nothing for either country but it has benefited the corperations who play each country against the other to see who will work for the smallest bowl of rice. I realy dont think mexico wants its 20 million people back anyhow as in there poverty they would probably be formulating a revelution. Its a big damn mess

Fanta46's photo
Sat 03/01/08 09:11 PM
drinker drinker drinker

I heard that!!drinker

Fanta46's photo
Sat 03/01/08 09:14 PM
I took you for a Hillary man...

laugh laugh laugh

armydoc4u's photo
Sat 03/01/08 09:19 PM

I wouldnt defend them and I wouldnt let them in. I am not a bleeding heart liberal or a pacafist I try to keep it real. the democrats wish them in for votes the republicans for cheap labor. as a union man I am against the explotation of labor and to me mexico is exporting its poverty to america. NAFTA was sold as a way to help raise mexico and keep out illegals being that they could find jobs down there. Well Nafta has done nothing for either country but it has benefited the corperations who play each country against the other to see who will work for the smallest bowl of rice. I realy dont think mexico wants its 20 million people back anyhow as in there poverty they would probably be formulating a revelution. Its a big damn mess


nicely said and well thought out, conveyed with a sense of honesty.......... judges what do you say?

well doc, for his presentation Id have to give him 3 1/2 out of four stars.

i agree, and next

well doc, for his sense of realism to the mtter at hand Id give him four out of four stars

and finally

well doc, for his not going into a crazy rant like weve heard so many times before, we'd like to give him five out of four stars, but will settle for four out of four and and appreciative cup of coffeedrinker

IndianaJoans's photo
Sat 03/01/08 09:21 PM

I wouldnt defend them and I wouldnt let them in. I am not a bleeding heart liberal or a pacafist I try to keep it real. the democrats wish them in for votes the republicans for cheap labor. as a union man I am against the explotation of labor and to me mexico is exporting its poverty to america. NAFTA was sold as a way to help raise mexico and keep out illegals being that they could find jobs down there. Well Nafta has done nothing for either country but it has benefited the corperations who play each country against the other to see who will work for the smallest bowl of rice. I realy dont think mexico wants its 20 million people back anyhow as in there poverty they would probably be formulating a revelution. Its a big damn mess

That makes sense to me

FearandLoathing's photo
Sat 03/01/08 10:13 PM
Can't find what I was looking for, but will continue searching. This is an attempt to understand why a soldier does what a soldier does under the harsh conditions during wartime (any war, they've all had the handfull of bad events). There was an excellent paper written on it I believe titled "Psychology of a Soldier", I am unable to find it but it was written by a vietnam war-vet that became a PHD in psychology. This was an excellent insight on why a person who seemingly is a honest, good hearted, and well natured person chooses to do things against his moral code. This is not an attack on our service members, as I've stated in the past I have absolutely no problem with any of you but given the topic I figured I would hunt about. I will continue searching for it until I come across it and put up the link.