no photo
Fri 01/11/13 11:07 AM
http://gunssavelives.net/

Saying that a deadly weapon cannot discourage someone who cherishes their life from attempting to harm yours is like trying to convince people that you dont need to breath because we cant see air.

no photo
Fri 01/11/13 10:40 AM
"They talked him into putting that shotgun down. He in fact told the teacher, 'I don't want to shoot you,' and named the person that he wanted to shoot," Youngblood said.
Soooooooo, he stopped . . . .


. . and how was the weapon of choice any part of that?


Replying to Willow just feels like having a conversation with moe larry and currly on social statistics of violence.

no photo
Fri 01/11/13 10:10 AM

so ummmmmm who is going to make the bad guys register their guns?

Hey drivin waving
Bad guys with guns in uniform . . . .


They don't; they just steal them from good citizens. laugh
Or if they have no citizens to steal them from, they smuggle them in like drugs are smuggled in now.

Gunna xray the shipment, no problem, just legally ship in miscellaneous small metal parts, dissemble your guns and mix them in to the misc parts. Scans can do nothing against such strategies.

The ideas presented are pathetic, and getting around them is par for the criminal course. Just face it a politician using law is no match for a criminal who knows his business and is making money hand over fist filling a demand.

no photo
Fri 01/11/13 10:08 AM

http://washingtonexaminer.com/wyoming-lawmakers-propose-bill-to-nullify-new-federal-gun-laws/article/2518133

Wyoming lawmakers propose bill to nullify new federal gun laws
January 10, 2013 | 11:03 am


Wyoming lawmakers have proposed a new bill that, if passed, would nullify any federal restrictions on guns, threatening to jail federal agents attempting to confiscate guns, ammunition magazines or ammunition.

The bill – HB0104 – states that “any federal law which attempts to ban a semi-automatic firearm or to limit the size of a magazine of a firearm or other limitation on firearms in this state shall be unenforceable in Wyoming.”

The bill is sponsored by eight Wyoming state representatives ad two state senators. If passed, the bill would declare any federal gun regulation created on or after January 1, 2013 to be unenforceable within the state.

In addition, the bill states would charge federal officials attempting to enforce a federal gun law within the state with a felony – “subject to imprisonment for not more less than one (1) year and one (1) day or more than five (5) years, a fine of not more than two thousand dollars ($2,000.00) five thousand dollars ($5,000.00), or both.”

The bill also allows the Attorney General of Wyoming to defend a state citizen from any prosecution by the United States Government.

One of the bill’s co-sponsors, Wyoming State Senator Larry Hicks, told The Washington Examiner that this type of legislation sends a message to the federal government in Washington D.C.

“It says that your one size fits all solution doesn’t comport to what a vast majority of the state believes,” Hicks explained in an interview.

Citing the Tenth and the Second Amendments, Hicks asserted that the legislation was Constitutional, adding that he fully expected it to pass in the Wyoming state legislature. Hicks said that his Wyoming constituents were upset about the looming threat of gun control coming from Washington, particularly since Vice President Biden signaled yesterday that President Obama was willing to issue an executive order to tackle the gun issue.

“They are very, very upset that we’re going to see some level of federal takeover of our weapons and abuse of our rights given to us by the Second Amendment,” Hicks stated. “Also that the federal government will bypass our legislative officials and confiscate our weapons through executive order. This gives citizens of the Western United States a great deal of concern.”

Rep. Kendell Kroeker, the lawmaker that spearheaded the bill, explained that he hoped that the federal government would recognize their constitutional rights based on the Tenth and Second Amendments.

"I think that its necessary when the federal government violates our rights in the Constitution we have to act," he explained.

The proposed legislation has recieved a overwhelmingly positive response from their constituents, according to the bill's sponsors, even from citizens of other states.

Kroeker said that since he introduced the bill he has received up to 50 emails from constituents thanking him for standing up for their rights.

“Most of the feedback that I have received is very encouraging," explained State Rep. Mark Baker, a fellow co-sponsor. "Many citizens from other states have contacted me stating that they are envious of our state’s initiative."

Kroeker said that he currently owns several handguns, rifles, shotguns and an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle - the model targeted by gun control proponents.

"People in Washington tend to overreact," Kroeker said. "They try to place blame on gun owners punishing in the innocent to pay for the crimes of the guilty."

Hicks explained that the model of the bill was taken from a bill passed in the State of Montana in 2009 adding that it wasn’t much different from what he’d seen other states do.

“I don’t think this is controversial in Wyoming at all,” he added. “I fully expect this bill to pass.”

Honestly, IMHO I think the reelection of Obama was a good thing.


Here me out.


I knew that with the threat of a loss gone he would start to do stuff like this, the libertarians, the moderate conservatives, and the fence sitters who are strong supporters of all civil rights not just there favorite ones are now FULLY energized to battle against a serious threat to our liberties.

That would not have happened had we got someone more moderate in office.

Now freedom loving people are coming together regardless of differences over other less severe/immediate social issues.


no photo
Thu 01/10/13 01:42 PM
Most gun toters weapons are more likely to kill an innocent person than ever kill a perpetrator of a crime against said gun toter.
It takes a second grade education to realize with napkin math this cant be true.

157 million gun owners did not have an accident yesterday.
The studies with the most lowest numbers regarding defensive use place it at 80 thousand per year, the greatest at more than 1 million.

1 in 14 Floridians have a carry permit. 1 in 5 in Utah.


If your statement were true that carrying a gun was more likely to kill an innocent than fulfill its intended purpose the data would look very different.

The facts are you cannot justify your statements with actual data from anywhere at all what so ever.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 11:52 AM
Very good post, this captures the mentalities that freedom loving people must always strive against.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 11:15 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 01/10/13 11:18 AM

Unless you have inherited weapons, casual purchase or illegally gotten weapons...most of us with guns HAVE registered guns. Even from gun shows - not just dealers/retailers. What do you think they do with that paperwork/background check stuff when you go to make a purchase?
The forms you submit stay with the dealer. The call ins are not tracked. If you wanted to sell me a gun you could, and would have no obligation to tell anyone you had done so.

ie, that is not registration.

are you saying a nuke is not an armament

nukes are arms used in defense of the country

you dont believe me ask japan
Thank you for asking!

The title of the thread is do you plan to register your guns, a nuke is not a gun.

When the arguments start to steer away from guns, into bombs the topic has shifted. I also do not think it helps when debating civil rights.
Just my .02

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 10:06 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 01/10/13 10:07 AM


So lead is a double whammy: It impairs specific parts of the brain responsible for executive functions and it impairs the communication channels between these parts of the brain. For children like the ones in the Cincinnati study, who were mostly inner-city kids with plenty of strikes against them already, lead exposure was, in Cecil's words, an "additional kick in the gut." And one more thing: Although both sexes are affected by lead, the neurological impact turns out to be greater among boys than girls.
We have the causative factors right here.





The phrase "an 'additional kick in the gut.'" in and of itself demonstrates that it is "a" causative factor and not "the" causative factor. Once again, I'm not denying it is a contributor just not the entire cause.
Sure that is a given, a complex environment always holds many influences.

My main point is that my own skepticism is fading for this particular explanation, the data supports the conclusion, the studies appear well done, and there are plenty of them to do meta analysis from.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 10:03 AM



Oh I see, Bush wants a full and utter back to grade school break down of the fact that 200 years ago things were much different than they are today.

So naturally things that applied then will not apply now

So some of us, have to take our thinking outside the box of what a 200 year old man would do today and make the changes to make it right for today.

Today.


Yea.
Again, you are failing to address the contradiction. You use a phone right? Do you have free speech while using it? Does it not apply because the founding fathers at the time never intended, by nature of never having been in a position to imagine the tech, so the tech is not covered by the right?

See, when you consistently apply logic and it leads to absurd results it shows you the logic is faulty.

What is even more interesting is that no supreme court ruling has EVER agreed with you. I imagine that logic is better understood by them . . .



The contradiction you create here has absolutely no bearing on the fact the 2nd amendment no longer applies to today.

Regardless to how you want to spin it.

So until it has bearing there is nothing to address is there?


RIIIGHT cause its ok to say that future technology is covered by one amendment and not another arbitrarily with nothing from the actual document or even other historical documents to support such a conclusion!!!!!!!!!


no photo
Thu 01/10/13 09:58 AM
Not, because I am not a lunatic....

I cannot take my mind back to a less intelligent point of being so I can entertain barbaric stupidity...Sorry

I WILL continue to fight for sanity to prevail eventually in this country.
RIIIIIGHT, cause its totally sane to write down on a piece of paper that it is illegal to kill, and expect that to fix the killing problem!


But it is totally insane to think that killing the bad guy stops him killing innocents!

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 09:55 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 01/10/13 09:57 AM

Oh I see, Bush wants a full and utter back to grade school break down of the fact that 200 years ago things were much different than they are today.

So naturally things that applied then will not apply now

So some of us, have to take our thinking outside the box of what a 200 year old man would do today and make the changes to make it right for today.

Today.


Yea.
Again, you are failing to address the contradiction. You use a phone right? Do you have free speech while using it? Does it not apply because the founding fathers at the time never intended, by nature of never having been in a position to imagine the tech, so the tech is not covered by the right?

See, when you consistently apply logic and it leads to absurd results it shows you the logic is faulty.

What is even more interesting is that no supreme court ruling has EVER agreed with you. I imagine that logic is better understood by them . . .

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 09:49 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 01/10/13 09:50 AM

Hey flowerforyou

you can not live up to your responsibility to maintain your freedom
as forefathers outlined in the declaration of Independence unless you have the weapons the govt will use against you

i don't think the united states will nuke the united states


We don't have to nuke ourselves. Just determine the "insurgents" are not patriotic and might be lead by a psycho that means harm to the other members of this country and a drone strike would do. I am sure they will not draw it out like Waco.
Again nukes have nothing to do with this conversation. You are out in lala land, earth to willowdraga earth to willowdraga, we are talking about guns, the second amendment and you said that the intention of the founding fathers was for the arms of the time.

I asked specific questions that you have failed to even come close to acknowledging.

So do I need to repeat it so you apply it or....
No where in this thread have you addressed the contradiction I presented.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 09:43 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 01/10/13 09:47 AM
i don't think the united states will nuke the united states
Nukes are not even relevant to the topic.
Even mentioning them is a way to inflate the hyperbole.

The only concept to focus on is that weapons offer advantages, do you want that advantage in a deadly situation. Yes you do.

The weapons in question offer advantages, do you want those advantages in a deadly situation, yes you do.

Could not having those advantages get you killed, yes it can. The military knows this, and there is no reason it does not apply to everyone.

When anyone starts down the path of need speak, you dont need that, you dont need this, they are clearly engaging in an absurd task of knowing what the future holds and being certain that no deadly encounters will occur for which that advantage will save your life.

Its terribly dishonest.



Considering the 2nd amendment was written when it took 15 minutes to load a weapon and the military had the same weapons as the people, it doesn't even apply today.
First and foremost where does the document make that distinction?

Secondly does this apply to other protected rights? Does the 1st only apply to verbal communication or type set printing?

Seriously, if you have not considered your argument for a minute you might want to stop and take a few, because its terribad.


You have no defense to it eh?

Guess it went over your head then?
See, here you go, terribly dishonest. Cant address the contradiction, just change the subject, or hand wave it away.


If its just you are just struggling to make clear and concise statements then you might want to try a little harder.

You said, " you have no defense to it eh?"
No defense to what? See this makes no sense from your post I responded to. Your claim is that the second amendment was only intended for the weapons of the time. I asked if that applied to the first, and you ask me if I have any defense to that . . . which makes no sense to me.

Then you say it goes over my head . . . I think it never left your head.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 09:39 AM
Critical thinking, and high standards of evidence are the ways around such obfuscation. Problem is it takes effort, and people are lazy.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 09:36 AM
Considering the 2nd amendment was written when it took 15 minutes to load a weapon and the military had the same weapons as the people, it doesn't even apply today.
First and foremost where does the document make that distinction?

Secondly does this apply to other protected rights? Does the 1st only apply to verbal communication or type set printing?

Seriously, if you have not considered your argument for a minute you might want to stop and take a few, because its terribad.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 09:32 AM
So lead is a double whammy: It impairs specific parts of the brain responsible for executive functions and it impairs the communication channels between these parts of the brain. For children like the ones in the Cincinnati study, who were mostly inner-city kids with plenty of strikes against them already, lead exposure was, in Cecil's words, an "additional kick in the gut." And one more thing: Although both sexes are affected by lead, the neurological impact turns out to be greater among boys than girls.
We have the causative factors right here.



no photo
Thu 01/10/13 08:06 AM

The wealthy aren't going to leave the USA because this is where they make their money.

Back in the 1950s (under Ike, a republican) the top tax rate was over 90% and no one left then. In fact, this was a big part of how we got the booming economy of that era. Ike also expanded social security to cover more Americans, cut the military budget, started building our interstate system as well as damns and other public works. In other words, Ike was a liberal.

A great president, a great general, a great man and a great Texan!
It is a whole lot easier to live in another country and do your business from somewhere that wont tax your personal income nearly as bad than there was in the 50's. I mean come on, seriously? The technological changes in the environment have made all the difference.

Migrating and working remotely has never been easier, and it shows.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 07:56 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 01/10/13 07:57 AM



Good point about the crime not necessarily being down. I can only speak for our country that crime overall is down which isn't necessarily related to gun control but the shootings are also down here as well. I don't know if that is a direct result of gun registration but our politicians seem to think so.

Crime is down amongst almost all developed nations.

If you graph the violent crime of the big 10 developed nations they may be at different places on the graph but it is awfully interesting how the lines all follow the same broad trend of decline.

All the while some places increase gun control, and other decrease. Anyone with an inkling of knowledge regarding statistics, or study methodologies should recognize a lack of correlation.

That means the idea is spurious, and that other factors are involved. Yet here we are continuing to beat up on guns, and not the real causal factors.

We also tend to dramatize our violence in society . . . even while it is going down, we ratchet up the fear to push new policies through.



Well; if you read my post; I said I wasn't sure if it had to to with gun registration. slaphead
Well if you read my post you will notice that I explain why I am not a supporter of registration. Sharing is nice!

Really? Protecting our rights is an agenda?
No reason agenda's must be bad . . .

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 07:50 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 01/10/13 08:12 AM

While I must admit the article is well written and that the rise and fall of both levels is extremely close in correlation, I still have some doubts (as any good scientific observer should).

The real fall in crime levels also correlates with the induction of both the passage of the civil rights act and the introduction of Johnson's great society - where we also introduced food stamps, and welfare. This would point to crime being on the decline since the collective society had decided that we could not longer discriminate against specific classes, and that we do the best to insure a social safety net to provide the basics of life to the people.

This correlation is also present in ancient culture. Ancient Rome had riots when the bread ration wasn't met, and later emperors would also add olive oil and wine to the ration. Crime while prevalent should have been staggering, as the main cooking vessels were made of lead as well as most drinking cups. Crime among women at the time should have seen unprecedented numbers as most cosmetics were lead based. The lead did lead to higher mortality rates at the time, but the crime, while present, was equal in contrast to ours, both in occurance and violence.

While I won't say that lead isn't harmful, I think the underlying socio-econmic factors have a greater influence.

As for the connections to ADHD, I read that study as well and the connections are spurious at best. The study offered no control group and only tracked the blood levels of those who were diagonosed. Considering there has been a rise in those diagnosed with ADHD in the U.S. since the removal of lead from the gas, one could acutally argue that a "little lead" is good for maintaining proper brain chemistry.

It'd a good article, but I'm not 100% sold.


It was an exciting conjecture, and it prompted an immediate wave of…nothing. Nevin's paper was almost completely ignored, and in one sense it's easy to see why—Nevin is an economist, not a criminologist, and his paper was published in Environmental Research, not a journal with a big readership in the criminology community. What's more, a single correlation between two curves isn't all that impressive, econometrically speaking. Sales of vinyl LPs rose in the postwar period too, and then declined in the '80s and '90s. Lots of things follow a pattern like that. So no matter how good the fit, if you only have a single correlation it might just be a coincidence. You need to do something more to establish causality.

As it turns out, however, a few hundred miles north someone was doing just that. In the late '90s, Jessica Wolpaw Reyes was a graduate student at Harvard casting around for a dissertation topic that eventually became a study she published in 2007 as a public health policy professor at Amherst. "I learned about lead because I was pregnant and living in old housing in Harvard Square," she told me, and after attending a talk where future Freakonomics star Levitt outlined his abortion/crime theory, she started thinking about lead and crime. Although the association seemed plausible, she wanted to find out whether increased lead exposure caused increases in crime. But how?
In states where consumption of leaded gasoline declined slowly, crime declined slowly. Where it declined quickly, crime declined quickly.

The answer, it turned out, involved "several months of cold calling" to find lead emissions data at the state level. During the '70s and '80s, the introduction of the catalytic converter, combined with increasingly stringent Environmental Protection Agency rules, steadily reduced the amount of leaded gasoline used in America, but Reyes discovered that this reduction wasn't uniform. In fact, use of leaded gasoline varied widely among states, and this gave Reyes the opening she needed. If childhood lead exposure really did produce criminal behavior in adults, you'd expect that in states where consumption of leaded gasoline declined slowly, crime would decline slowly too. Conversely, in states where it declined quickly, crime would decline quickly. And that's exactly what she found.


Proposing a different theory, does nothing to reduce the confidence of this one. Without showing the same kinds of controls, ie that smaller environs with different levels of the substance matched levels of violence is not very compelling.

Which makes this study very compelling IMHO. I need to take some more time with the data before I put my own opinion behind it, but it is FAR more promising then anything else I have seen.

This study shows a very strong association between preschool blood lead and subsequent crime rate trends over several decades in the
USA, Britain, Canada, France, Australia, Finland, Italy, West Germany, and New Zealand. The relationship is characterized by best-fit
lags (highest R2 and t-value for blood lead) consistent with neurobehavioral damage in the first year of life and the peak age of offending
for index crime, burglary, and violent crime. The impact of blood lead is also evident in age-specific arrest and incarceration trends.
Regression analysis of average 1985–1994 murder rates across USA cities suggests that murder could be especially associated with more
severe cases of childhood lead poisoning.
r 2007 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
Your social theory (civil rights etc) can do nothing with international data. That makes your theory much weaker than this one if the data really supports it.

Nevin collected lead data and crime data for Australia and found a close match. Ditto for Canada. And Great Britain and Finland and France and Italy and New Zealand and West Germany. Every time, the two curves fit each other astonishingly well. When I spoke to Nevin about this, I asked him if he had ever found a country that didn't fit the theory. "No," he replied. "Not one."
Hmmm, sure does make sense of the data I have seen.

In fact, Mielke has even studied lead concentrations at the neighborhood level in New Orleans and shared his maps with the local police. "When they overlay them with crime maps," he told me, "they realize they match up."
That is unreal, has any other violent crime study EVER been able to do this? To map a correlation at such a granular level with on contradicting data?

Also this is not one economic study of mere correlation, but many studies some of them neurological studies, some of which are very large, well controlled random clinical trials that map behavioral traits and lead levels.

VERY compelling.

no photo
Thu 01/10/13 07:32 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Thu 01/10/13 07:35 AM


I answered your questions. Then I asked you. But you just sprayed me with even more questions.


I don't agree with insulting people, putting them down, attacking them verbally or physically because of the color of their skin. I don't see a point in it. People are people. We're all different. I see no reason to justify racism.

Just as I see no reason for bigotry.
I think justification, and taking account of what causes the behavior in question, are different things. So is accepting that a certain % of the pop is going to exhibit these behaviors.

Before the argument stated this was all that I had read into the posts from IamwhoIam1, just my .02

Justification involves oughts'. I saw no oughts'.

1 2 3 4 5 7 9 10 11 24 25