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| Topic: Okay so.... | |
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If religion really wanted to bring in the flocks of people for saving. Wouldn't promising them some form of happiness in this life on earth be more sell worthy? Instead of promising them a happiness after death that is not even guaranteed then.
Just sayin. Please do not use bible versus to make a point on this one. In your own words please and thank you. |
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Many people do seem to gain a happiness from their beliefs, even if to the rest of us their beliefs are ridiculous and unfounded.
You are correct in what you are saying though. Religions should promote more what they can do for people now, rather than after death, because most sane people know deep down that nothing will beable to help them then! |
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I agree.
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If religion really wanted to bring in the flocks of people for saving. Wouldn't promising them some form of happiness in this life on earth be more sell worthy? Instead of promising them a happiness after death that is not even guaranteed then. What you propose would be detrimental to religions IF that was the only basis for belief. The reason is that a 'promise' of a better existence cannot be kept and it only tends to disprove the religious belief. However, philosophy properly contrived can offer "some form or happiness in this life on earth...". So what you may find is that many of the beliefs that come together to ring in a religion, are often the center from which human philosophy evolves and thus happines on Earth can be connected with the religious minded. For example, in the Christian religion especially in the evangilical forms, one of the greatest 'selling points' is often touted by believers who cliam that the heavey burdens of life were lifted from their shoulders as soon as they prostrated themselves to God/Jesus. And of course what follows is the sad story of how far down in the pits they were (one step from living in the streets, lost their family, their job, their car, their health -- yadda yadda) and how suddenly in less than (a week, month, year...) their entire life was transformed. This same kind of philosophy has allowed those of the Hindu and Buddhist religions not only to accept the caste system they live in, but to find peace with their lot in life. In the Jewish religion there are many philosophies which give rise to the enjoyment of life on Earth while still striving to meet the end goal of eternal life in the presence of their got. So - we can all see how logical the OP thought process is, obviously even religionists have considered this logical point of view. Adopting, ammending, and (or) revising, through language, culture, political, and social, views is a big way in which religions evolve - philisophically speaking. |
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I am almost 32. I have been in church all my life. I have heard all kinds of stories, even have a few of my own. I can't speak for all the religions out there, I am not taking comparative religions till next semester. But, the angle that "Christians" don't tend to "sell" Christianity with is this, God does promise you a much better life in the here and now. He doesn't promise that it will all be a bed of roses. But He promises, as the all knowing, all seeing creator, to guide you through everything you face, and bring it all about for your good. SO any tragedy that happens, He will work it out so that you are better for having faced it.
The problem is, too many "Christians" fail to hold up their own end of the deal, the whole part about actually letting God lead, and actually following where He guides. This makes others hesitant to promote Christianity in that way. Shoot, take myself for an example. I got away from trusting God to guide, and just went out and picked a wife out. God has done amazing things in my life through the process of the divorce that was final a little over a year ago, and He continues to help me with the issues that I, and my daughters, face because of it. He takes the messes we make of our lives, and if we let Him, He will start to make slow adjustments and somewhere along the way, we look back and realize how different things are now compared to when He started, and we don't miss the old, in fact we LOVE the new. It all works because God DOES know us down to every little detail. He made us that way. Now we sure can do things to influence all that. But, if we truly surrender to Him, it is simply amazing what He can do with our lives, and the joy and peace He can bring. |
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Edited by
Dragoness
on
Fri 07/16/10 10:09 PM
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If religion really wanted to bring in the flocks of people for saving. Wouldn't promising them some form of happiness in this life on earth be more sell worthy? Instead of promising them a happiness after death that is not even guaranteed then. What you propose would be detrimental to religions IF that was the only basis for belief. The reason is that a 'promise' of a better existence cannot be kept and it only tends to disprove the religious belief. However, philosophy properly contrived can offer "some form or happiness in this life on earth...". So what you may find is that many of the beliefs that come together to ring in a religion, are often the center from which human philosophy evolves and thus happines on Earth can be connected with the religious minded. For example, in the Christian religion especially in the evangilical forms, one of the greatest 'selling points' is often touted by believers who cliam that the heavey burdens of life were lifted from their shoulders as soon as they prostrated themselves to God/Jesus. And of course what follows is the sad story of how far down in the pits they were (one step from living in the streets, lost their family, their job, their car, their health -- yadda yadda) and how suddenly in less than (a week, month, year...) their entire life was transformed. This same kind of philosophy has allowed those of the Hindu and Buddhist religions not only to accept the caste system they live in, but to find peace with their lot in life. In the Jewish religion there are many philosophies which give rise to the enjoyment of life on Earth while still striving to meet the end goal of eternal life in the presence of their got. So - we can all see how logical the OP thought process is, obviously even religionists have considered this logical point of view. Adopting, ammending, and (or) revising, through language, culture, political, and social, views is a big way in which religions evolve - philisophically speaking. Understood and agreed. The burdens of this life are only lifted by the person themselves or time or help from others but if you want to give a god the credit there is nothing to stop it. I call it the "false parental support", the releasing of a problem to a "higher" power is like going to your parents with a problem when you were a child. You know they will help you out at some level. And even if they do not do a thing just telling them makes it seem all better. |
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I am almost 32. I have been in church all my life. I have heard all kinds of stories, even have a few of my own. I can't speak for all the religions out there, I am not taking comparative religions till next semester. But, the angle that "Christians" don't tend to "sell" Christianity with is this, God does promise you a much better life in the here and now. He doesn't promise that it will all be a bed of roses. But He promises, as the all knowing, all seeing creator, to guide you through everything you face, and bring it all about for your good. SO any tragedy that happens, He will work it out so that you are better for having faced it. The problem is, too many "Christians" fail to hold up their own end of the deal, the whole part about actually letting God lead, and actually following where He guides. This makes others hesitant to promote Christianity in that way. Shoot, take myself for an example. I got away from trusting God to guide, and just went out and picked a wife out. God has done amazing things in my life through the process of the divorce that was final a little over a year ago, and He continues to help me with the issues that I, and my daughters, face because of it. He takes the messes we make of our lives, and if we let Him, He will start to make slow adjustments and somewhere along the way, we look back and realize how different things are now compared to when He started, and we don't miss the old, in fact we LOVE the new. It all works because God DOES know us down to every little detail. He made us that way. Now we sure can do things to influence all that. But, if we truly surrender to Him, it is simply amazing what He can do with our lives, and the joy and peace He can bring. No disrespect intended here but I cannot agree with you at any level for myself. I have found your thought process and belief system spoken of here to be completely illogical and a negative influence in life. I was raised Baptist and Catholic so I know all that I need to know about the religions and the bible. |
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So then, are you seeking truth, or to just create debate?
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Edited by
Dragoness
on
Fri 07/16/10 11:04 PM
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So then, are you seeking truth, or to just create debate? I always seek truth, just not yours. Sorry. Already been there and have outgrown it. |
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Check out "New Thought" denomination churches. It's about enjoying life now, receiving God's gifts now, It's about getting close to God now. Not after you are dead.
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Check out "New Thought" denomination churches. It's about enjoying life now, receiving God's gifts now, It's about getting close to God now. Not after you are dead.  See someone gets the "selling points" I mentioned.
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Check out "New Thought" denomination churches. It's about enjoying life now, receiving God's gifts now, It's about getting close to God now. Not after you are dead. See someone gets the "selling points" I mentioned. They are typically OK with reincarnation so it's not like the game is over when you die, you still may have work to do and will have to come back and finish it. |
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Again, not an expert on every denomination or religion. But, it seems that what michiganman3 and I are referring to have a lot in common. "Christianity" as I believe it, is all about getting to know God now, in this life. It is all about His unconditional love for us, and His desire to bring us into a real life relationship with Him now, not in Heaven. Just like any real relationship, there are things you can do that will upset and hurt the other person, the same is true with God.
I am not sure what you say you can't agree with. I am not sure what you say is illogical. It seems to me that part of the problem is that you were in fact raised Catholic and Baptist. Both of these versions of "Christianity" vary widely in what they teach depending on the specific congregation you are in. And both rely heavily on some form of ritual or code to live by, to make you good enough to be accepted into Heaven. If that is in fact what you have outgrown, then that is excellent. That was never the point. God has always wanted a real, alive relationship with mankind. God made our beautiful planet for mankind to enjoy. God has only wanted to guide us into that relationship with Him, and into helping others know that He desires that same relationship with them. The Bible, as I believe it, is a guide, a tool to be used. God created us, knows how we think and are, and knows the effects our choices and decisions will have on us and those around us. He gives us guidelines to help us in making the wiser, better decisions. If we get away from following that, we should expect things to start to fall apart. He made us, He knows how we tick. Wouldn't He know the best choice for us to make? |
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I don't wish to be saved and I cannot have a relationship with a god I don't believe exists.
I was making a statement on religion in general in the OP. |
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Generally, from what little I understand of other religions, and even variations of Christianity, yes, most are all about attaining a better life way out there someday after you have lived this life and maybe a few others. The point I was making, from what I believe, (not what I have been taught all my life) is that Christianity, if you go to the root of the word, not necessarily what modern culture describes it as, is based in selfless love, and generally considering others more highly than yourself. The combination, if spread infectiously, could completely revolutionize the entire world. If you apply that to the concept of an all knowing Creator that is constantly interacting with mankind, guiding and helping, it starts to fit together with the idea that there is hope and a promise of a better life here on this planet, not just after death. I am not trying to convince you that Christianity is "right" or that God is real. I am just saying, Christianity as I believe it, does do exactly what you said would be a more sell worthy approach. It offers hope and happiness here in this life.
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Danny Guy Wrote: "Christianity" as I believe it, is all about getting to know God now, in this life. It is all about His unconditional love for us, Unconditional love? How do you figure that the biblical God's love is "unconditional". According to the Bible there are quite many conditions required to obtain God's love. Not the least of which is that you must believe that the Bible is the word of God in the first place. Then there's the ten commandments. And now, with Christianity there's the requirement that you must accept Jesus as "The Christ", and that he died to pay for your salvation. Failure to do any of things things is grounds for God to withdraw his 'love' and instead display emense wrath (or hate). So the "love" of the Christian God is extremely conditional. Moreover, according to most Christians (and the authors of the Bible as far as I can see), even failure to believe that the Bible is the word of God or that Jesus was the son of God is more than enough to earn eternal damnantion. Yet, to not believe these things can be a very innocent act by a very loving person. I personally don't believe that the Bible is the word of God, nor do I believe that Jesus is the son of God. Does that make me a "bad" person underserving of my creator's love? Surely not. Therefore this story must be false. Because the requirements that must be fulfilled to obtain this God's love are not reasonable. |
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Where I live it is after 4am. SO I am gonna take a break after this post. Gotta sleep a little.
If I tell you, I have a lot of money and anyone that wants $100,000 can have it, what has to happen for someone to get it? If someone on the other side of the planet wants to claim that money, they are welcome to. I did not restrict them. Somehow, they have to become aware of the offer. Then they have to believe that I exist. They have to believe that I actually have the money. They have to believe that I will actually give it to them. Those are not conditions that I have placed on them. It is not a requirement I have made. I just said, here it is! They have to realize it is there, believe that they will actually receive it, and then make whatever efforts needed to actually obtain it. The requirements to receive God's love are no less reasonable or conditional. Believe that He is there. Believe that you need something to bridge the gap between you and Him. Believe that He provided that through the death of a man, His son, on a cross. And believe that simply believing those things entitles you to that love which IS that bridge. It is a lot easier for a man in Australia to accept God's love, than my money. |
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If religion really wanted to bring in the flocks of people for saving. Wouldn't promising them some form of happiness in this life on earth be more sell worthy? Instead of promising them a happiness after death that is not even guaranteed then. Just sayin. Please do not use bible versus to make a point on this one. In your own words please and thank you. I guess there is the argument of doing what sells,, but then we are in quite a bit of a mess in several areas going by that philosophy. We sold sex as this great satifying grown up thing, with little mention of pregnancy or disease and look at the rates of disease and unwanted children, we sold college as this great save all little mention of the debt and look at how many people are suffering from debt and still not gainfully employed, we sell fast food and restaurants as this great occasion with great food and friends, with little mention to the harmful effects most of the foods have and look at the obesity epidemic we are facing, I think Redy was on point about how misleading at the beginning can do much more harm at the end than just being straightforward. I think its best to get a balance of the good with the bad to make people better prepared instead of raising their hopes unreasonably or discouraging them irreperably |
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The requirements to receive God's love are no less reasonable or conditional. Believe that He is there. Believe that you need something to bridge the gap between you and Him. Believe that He provided that through the death of a man, His son, on a cross. And believe that simply believing those things entitles you to that love which IS that bridge. It is a lot easier for a man in Australia to accept God's love, than my money. Well, IMHO, that's a whole lot of technical details to need to "believe" on mere faith. Why not instead, just believe that god loves me just as I am and there's no need to believe in some insane gory folklore that requires people to be nailed to poles before God can love me. I just don't see the point in all the gory stuff. Why not just "believe" in the teachings of Buddha for example. Or in one of the many pagan religions where God loves us without any need to nail anyone to any pole. Why should I need to "believe" that there is some sort of 'gap' between me and God in the first place?  Am I supposed to believe in that on "Faith"? Why would I want to place my "Faith" in such a negative idea?  It seems to me to be far better to simply place my faith in a religion that has God already loving me with no absurd obstacles in the way. Why should their be obstacles between me and my creator? It seems to me that you've already accepted that absurd notion as a premise to your belief. But in fact, that has to be part of your "belief". I don't believe that I'm at ODDS with my creator to begin with. So I have no reason to believe that I need to do something to rectify that "make-believe" situation in the first place. |
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I see people around here still spend hundreds of threads about the same topics. It has been over a year since I don´t come around here. lol
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