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| Topic: Power of prayer by an atheist | |
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I wish to throw this in as a question about ethics and morality (they mean the same thing, btw)
I was at a party or something, and someone had a sick relative, say a child or a father. Everyone was supportive, I said, I'll say a prayer, but I'm an atheist, I must warn you. They said, more than one and they all agreed, at the party, where almost everyone else was religious, Christian at that, that my prayer will still count, maybe more than a regular Christian's prayer, seeing that I am not a believer. We went home. I did not do the prayer, thinking that what's the use? I truly don't believe that it would have mattered in any way at all. NOW. Please try to decide this question either by removing yourself from religion and atheism; or by considering the tenets of both, and not just of one or the other. I mean, you need to answer the question that follows below, but you must examine it from both atheistic and religious views; and give an answer that satisifies both. Not two answers, each of which satisfies either or the other. But one answer, with an explanation perhaps, which ONE answer gives a satisfactory answer to both the religious and the atheists in this above situation. The question: Did I do the morally right thing, the ethically right thing, by promising a prayer for the benefit of a religious person; and did I do the right thing by intentionally never saying the prayer. This is an ethical question, that's how I mean it for you to consider it. Your answer must not be contingent on the fact whether the sick family member for whose benefit I told I'd say a prayer, got better or not. -------- As a moral question, you may treat the topic in any way you like, for instance as a question within cultural norms and expectations, or as a question as in the domain of individual's moral obligations as determined by him. |
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Prayer doesnt do anything. if they find peace in the fact that they think you said a prayer, then you did the right thing. Wether you prayed or not makes no difference as it does nothing. If it made them feel better about the situation by thinking you did, then no harm done :)
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If you say you will do something then you should do it.
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I think that honesty in personal relationships is a very important value, and therefore I agree with Lillott. I know that prayer has no impact on the world except in how it affects the thoughts and actions of human beings, but if we say we will do something we should do it (unless we have real cause for changing our mind, in which case we should inform the person we promised).
You could do it right now in 2 seconds. Just think: "Dear Non-existent God, please help him get better, even though You can't since You don't exist." Wait, no, try this one: "Dear Non-existent God, please help him get better, even though You can't since You don't exist." Ah ha! If you read that sentence in your head you may have already done the deed! |
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Some might argue that the only wrong, in the scenario, was making a conscious decision not to honor his own words.
On the other hand, people are regularly faced with the unexpected dilemma of having to choose between two commitments. In that cases we could consider the level of commitment the person places on his own words, and the words of others, and whether the decision to negate his word was influenced by altruistic motives. Since no altruism seems to have influenced the decision of not praying, then we might conclude that the individual does not value his own words, or the words of others, which we consider unfriendly when no harm results - but we consider it unethical and even unlawful when harm is the result and/or the intention. So what do you think Wux? When it come to misrepresentation or blatent disregard of one's words, is it unethical or does it depend on the outcome? |
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though i'm agnostic and not theist or atheist i see both questions like this. if you think you did the ethical thing in either or both cases then you were morally correct. my ethical and moral standards have been derived from my own experiences and a healthy dose of common sense. i don't look to others for moral guidance. living up to my own moral and ethical standards is all that matters to me. having said that, my ethics would not have allowed me to promise to say a prayer that i knew i wouldn't say. there are other things that can be said in such circumstances, such as "he will be in my thoughts."
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Mon 12/12/11 01:06 PM
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Prayer to me can be many things. Meditation and prayer share elements, as do just taking time to think about someone.
Human beings are extremely social creatures. Our affection and attention is a commodity. To think about someone is offering some of this commodity up for as an altruistic donation. Without any god being involved, I would offer up my attention and would not feel any regret for doing so. It really is a great kindness to think about someone, no less someone who is in distress, or is feeling low. Its an even greater kindness to let them know you are thinking about them, perhaps by sending a notice of some sorts . . . I like flowers and a card or a small gift, sometimes just a phone call, or if the person is deceased then sometimes the gift is just a bowed head and clasped hands in a group "prayer" for the benefit of those that are saddened. I would have "prayed", even if that would not have been what another considered prayer and for the same reasons mentioned . . . becuase I said I would. |
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I wish to throw this in as a question about ethics and morality (they mean the same thing, btw) I was at a party or something, and someone had a sick relative, say a child or a father. Everyone was supportive, I said, I'll say a prayer, but I'm an atheist, I must warn you. They said, more than one and they all agreed, at the party, where almost everyone else was religious, Christian at that, that my prayer will still count, maybe more than a regular Christian's prayer, seeing that I am not a believer. We went home. I did not do the prayer, thinking that what's the use? I truly don't believe that it would have mattered in any way at all. NOW. Please try to decide this question either by removing yourself from religion and atheism; or by considering the tenets of both, and not just of one or the other. I mean, you need to answer the question that follows below, but you must examine it from both atheistic and religious views; and give an answer that satisifies both. Not two answers, each of which satisfies either or the other. But one answer, with an explanation perhaps, which ONE answer gives a satisfactory answer to both the religious and the atheists in this above situation. The question: Did I do the morally right thing, the ethically right thing, by promising a prayer for the benefit of a religious person; and did I do the right thing by intentionally never saying the prayer. This is an ethical question, that's how I mean it for you to consider it. Your answer must not be contingent on the fact whether the sick family member for whose benefit I told I'd say a prayer, got better or not. -------- As a moral question, you may treat the topic in any way you like, for instance as a question within cultural norms and expectations, or as a question as in the domain of individual's moral obligations as determined by him. Unless the atheist has unassailable proof that his/her failure to tender the agreed prayer will result in the god who is being prayed to definitely taking the life of the sick person, this is NOT a question about ethics. It's a straw man the Faithful are trying to lay on the atheist as a guilt trip to pry religious-based behaviour out of the atheist using emotional blackmail. One could even wonder if _their_ ethics have their ducks all in a row. The part that gives the game away? The statement by the Christians that one atheist prayer allegedly means more to god than all the prayers of the faithful. It's like this one: "Every time a US citizen votes Democratic, god kills another kitten. So, save the kittens by voting Republican." -Kerry O. |
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Prayer doesnt do anything. if they find peace in the fact that they think you said a prayer, then you did the right thing. Wether you prayed or not makes no difference as it does nothing. If it made them feel better about the situation by thinking you did, then no harm done :) |
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The question: Did I do the morally right thing, the ethically right thing, by promising a prayer for the benefit of a religious person; and did I do the right thing by intentionally never saying the prayer. a promise is "intent" which quickly disappates as being an intention once it is realized that it requires one to violate ones own moral or ethical boundaries |
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Edited by
teadipper
on
Tue 12/20/11 08:00 AM
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I wish to throw this in as a question about ethics and morality (they mean the same thing, btw) I was at a party or something, and someone had a sick relative, say a child or a father. Everyone was supportive, I said, I'll say a prayer, but I'm an atheist, I must warn you. They said, more than one and they all agreed, at the party, where almost everyone else was religious, Christian at that, that my prayer will still count, maybe more than a regular Christian's prayer, seeing that I am not a believer. We went home. I did not do the prayer, thinking that what's the use? I truly don't believe that it would have mattered in any way at all. NOW. Please try to decide this question either by removing yourself from religion and atheism; or by considering the tenets of both, and not just of one or the other. I mean, you need to answer the question that follows below, but you must examine it from both atheistic and religious views; and give an answer that satisifies both. Not two answers, each of which satisfies either or the other. But one answer, with an explanation perhaps, which ONE answer gives a satisfactory answer to both the religious and the atheists in this above situation. The question: Did I do the morally right thing, the ethically right thing, by promising a prayer for the benefit of a religious person; and did I do the right thing by intentionally never saying the prayer. This is an ethical question, that's how I mean it for you to consider it. Your answer must not be contingent on the fact whether the sick family member for whose benefit I told I'd say a prayer, got better or not. -------- As a moral question, you may treat the topic in any way you like, for instance as a question within cultural norms and expectations, or as a question as in the domain of individual's moral obligations as determined by him. My opinion is that let's presume there is no god (though I do not believe that) that there is a common energy between all things. You learn this in chemistry with chemical reactions, right? SO therefore, saying a prayer in my opinion may whether or not there is a god, be sending positive ions to that person. How harmful could that be??? Okay well sometimes you want negative ions but that doesn't sound happy. The universe is a HUGE POND and when you throw in a pebble there is always a ripple. So maybe you threw in a pebble that caused a positive ripple. |
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Prayer doesnt do anything. if they find peace in the fact that they think you said a prayer, then you did the right thing. Wether you prayed or not makes no difference as it does nothing. If it made them feel better about the situation by thinking you did, then no harm done :) Geez, I would think life would be a huge bummer for you if you thought that way about everything. I hope you believe other positive things like online dating works. LOL. However, I do appreciate that you acknowledge that if something non-harmful makes a person feel better no matter how ineffective it may be that it's okay. Remembering I am two seconds from Ojai, HOME TO TONS OF WICCANS, I do carry a piece of rose quartz (in the shape of an angel), I do burn incense and I do burn regular bee's wax candles and wish positive into the universe. Mind you this is the girl who is Jewish raised around Catholics and whose most of her family is Christian. I mean if I lose something and am babbling to St. Anthony, just leave me alone even if you are thinking "What is the Jewish girl doing babbling to a Catholic saint??" |
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..I said, I'll say a prayer, but I'm an atheist, I must warn you.. I think you handed out the placebo effect of hope. With no intention of honoring it. As it is a very funny retort you made I do wonder if you meant it as a joke. And that is why you felt no moral obligation to follow through. If that is so, there is no ethical question,..someone above me said, 'No harm, no foul.' But, if you felt the obligation to follow through, then overrode it to justify any wandering wisps of guilt for not honoring your word, then I think you know already if you broke your own code. |
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Look at it this way;
If a friend invited you to go with him to a Christmas mass, and you told him you were not christian but would accompany him as a friend, and then didn't show up for the service because you decided it would be hypocritical, would that be morally ethical? |
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Edited by
John8659
on
Fri 12/23/11 11:54 AM
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Did I do the morally right thing, the ethically right thing, by promising a prayer for the benefit of a religious person; and did I do the right thing by intentionally never saying the prayer. The minds functions through the artifice, or if you prefer, tool, of language. It is not intentionally useful when dysfunctional, and functional when reason is a reflection of reality. In short, it is a quest not only learning how to give your word, but how to keep it. The answer should have been obvious. If you become rational enough, you might see the wisdom of, You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. It was not a question of the power of prayer, as men understand it, but what prayer is as defined, whole body, whole mind whole soul. It all starts with "words" |
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Put it in perspective.
"Do I look fat in this dress?" |
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Edited by
RainbowTrout
on
Fri 12/23/11 02:44 PM
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Since time is relative and time has not run out the prayer could still be prayed since you did not say exactly at what time you would say the prayer. You left yourself a nice loop hole there.
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I always use, "You/They will be in my thoughts". Folks want to know that their family members are cared about and letting them know you're thinking about them gives them that support. Some would call it prayer, since one is focusing one's energy on them, even if it's just a thought.
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I thought it was sweet that everyone was supportive. I have a lot of supportive Atheists who come to our support groups. My first sponsor was a supportive Atheist who wore supportive hose because his veins couldn't support all his needle tracks. He said I had beautiful veins.
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Okay. I am ready to go to a meeting. That last comment has me scratching. Flashbacks. You just got to love them.
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