If soul is immortal why do we fear of death?

Do you think that being Christian or Islamic (since they are so similar) makes a person overly obsessed with death/reward so that they cannot live life? Or even truly be themselves and genuine?

(living life does not mean debauchery either)


I feel that the doctrines are stifling to the person even if they don't realize it. Allowing/coercing them to conceal their real true selves behind a false shield of the religion. Not meaning that their true selves are evil as the religions teach.

Example: A person who is a part of one of these religions is associated with a gay person. The two of them are very compatible and a great friendship could happen but the religious person cannot fully love and support the gay person in a healthy way due to misgivings taught by the church. (And "saving" or converting this person is not healthy no matter what you have been told" In this case the real person behind the shield would be a true friend and have a life long close relationship with another loving human. The religious shield cannot allow this person to be genuine because of the fear of hell taught by the church.

Causing the religious person to be ungenuine in their relationships due to the doctrines of the church in this case causing fear.

Not the ten commandments but the one.

Delivered in Genisis.

'be fruitfull and fill the earth...'

So then why does is it that some churches make it a sin to have sex?

Are said churches committing a 'sin'.

I was trying to explain why it doesn’t work. Let me try a different approach.

The belief is that God is perfect, God is good. God only creates what is good and perfect, as Genesis suggests, It is Good.

To believe that a perfect God could create something that is not perfect doesn’t make sense. In fact that point has been argued relentlessly in these threads as people try to suggest that God created evil. God cannot create evil because God is perfect & good so it seems reasonable to believe that God would “naturally” create only what a perfectly good creator can create – perfect & good.

So God provided an abundant source of ‘perfectly good’ food – Is there any food you don’t like? Is there anything you refuse to eat because you don’t think it’s good? Because God thought it was good.

Thou shall not kill – Gods' Law – it is right, perfect and good.
What does it mean, who or what does it apply to, and in what situations is that Law right, perfect and good? (just for you to think about, I already have)

God destroyed an entire civilization because it was no longer ‘good’. How does a perfect & good creation suddenly become no longer good? Oh yes – the argument of free will.

OUR will is apparently not FREE for us to use because if OUR will does not completely align with Gods Will – his value system allows him to obliterate life, simply because he does not agree with the values he allowed them to choose.

Personally that kind of destruction is not a value I would adopt. I would also not force others to adopt my personal values – each individual is free to find their own. I respect human life too much and understand the difference between cultures & their values, so my placement of values does not seem to match the destructive nature of God.

Still there is the question – if God’s creation was perfect, wouldn’t that creation come equipped with the exact values that God thinks are perfect?

God in his infinite wisdom created the perfect environment for his perfect creations – how perfect were these things?

First the environment contained detriments to his perfect humans – and then he punished the humans when they fell prey to those detriments. I never punished my son for accidents or for an innocent lack of judgment or when the consequences of his actions proved punishment enough.

Oh I know the typical response – God knew the detriment, that’s why he demanded obedience.

But the point is, if the environment was perfect and good in itself, it was not perfect and good for humans.
So either the environment was not created for humans or humans were not created perfect for the environment – there is no other way to view it. Non-the-less, people try to justify it further:

God was testing his creations. Even that logic fails, because a perfect and good creator cannot create beneath it nature.
If God is infinitely wise, all-knowing, perfect and good – wouldn’t God have known if his creation was perfect? So what would be the purpose of testing it?

This is another value I would not be able to incorporate, because testing people is manipulative, underhanded and can have severe consequences.

In the Bible story about the destruction of Sodom – Abraham is more concerned about the injustice which innocent people might suffer in the mass destruction of the city. Surely in a city there would be children, right? So Abraham takes to God to task and questions him. If in all of Sodom even 50 ‘good’ men could be found would he destroy the city? God agrees and says NO he will not destroy the city if 50 good men can be found. And if 40 good men could be found? NO. Abraham continues to diminish the number to 10 good men. God acquiesces and then leaves.

If God really knew how many good men could be found, would he allow this line of questioning? Still there is the question – What did God consider to be a good man?

The people of Sodom were not Hebrews, they had a completely different culture and their cultural values were different than the Hebrews. God gave them free will and upon that free will they built their culture. We have this issue today, should God reward us if we nuke those whose cultures are different?

What lesson is learned by anyone when a whole city, men, women and children, is destroyed because they hold different values from our own?

Perhaps a god that has the power to create at will, does not hold life in the same regard as those who live it. But then we are here and we must depend on a steady flow of open communication. Communication is something I value, apparently God does not because the ancient writings of man 'supposedly influenced by God' can not even be interpreted with consistency.



I just did!



If our benefit and protection was of such great concern to this loving, good, all powerful and perfect creator, then why not simply remove the harmful elements? If free-will is of such great importance then why punish its use? If life is given with only one means to a perfect end then why provide alternative paths?

its just that straight forward.



Perhaps you didn’t miss my point, perhaps I just didn’t make it clear. What I have written is just the tip of a very large ice berg, but the questions and answers are my own – each must ask their own questions but the best place to start is with yourself.

Look around you, ask yourself questions of value - in what way do you value human life? Is the value of life measured it its utility as a means an end or is life an end in itself? Is the value of life in its function or its purpose? Based on the value you give it, how would you behave toward it - all of it in all conceivable situations?

How do you feel about other life – animals, other creatures? What is their value to you, to the environment and how would you behave toward it based on your values?

How do you feel about the environment? What value is in the vegetation, in the water, in the air, not just to you but to every life form that depends on it for survival? How would your behavior reflect the value you place on those things?

No one can ‘give’ you those values and if you try to adopt them from others, your personality and your experiences will eventually give way and your behavior will not match the values you have adopted.

If you choose to believe in the God of your inspiration, do so by utilizing all the talents and all the gifts and the opportunities that your life was given to you to experience and learn from.

THESE ARE NOT EASY assignments but they WILL become more difficult if you attempt to fit your answers into the values that you THINK support your religious beliefs.

Be like Abraham, challenge your faith, not because you don’t believe - but because you do.
Is that a lesson you would have considered when reading that story?

Find out who you are and what you value IN THIS WORLD, because you cannot serve your God anywhere else but here, where you are. You cannot read commandments or bible stories to gain this knowledge of self. You have talent and abilities that are uniquely your own and commitment to your faith means nothing if you don’t discover how to use those talents and abilities, right HERE. Because this is where you were meant to be and for this environment you have been given the necessary tools for the assignment.

The strength of your faith in God, the content of your character and a purpose for your existence cannot be found in the ancient words of men. If you believe that God is perfect and good and that he made you in his image, then have enough faith in yourself to question the meaning of words as men have given them to you.

Do you really believe it so easy to find truth? If it were so easy why would so many claim to have the truth while so few agree? Do you really believe that the good and perfect God that inspires you, could find fault in your faith or a life-time of carrying it, even if at the end the only truth you know is that faith?

FOR JA1379 I can tell you have been born again becuase you are NAKED in your pic-------put on a shirt before you take the pulpit, we dont want to confirm any well known myths about the church.

Am I am poper pape?

Thanks for the links, I think I'll stick with the Bible and not silly legalism or conspiracy theories.

from Eastons Bible Dictionary

Salvation
This word is used of the deliverance of the Israelites from the
Egyptians (Ex. 14:13), and of deliverance generally from evil or
danger. In the New Testament it is specially used with reference
to the great deliverance from the guilt and the pollution of sin
wrought out by Jesus Christ, "the great salvation" (Heb. 2:3).
(See REDEMPTION ¯T0003084; REGENERATION ¯T0003091.)


Free Will
–noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy . the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces

from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free+will



action

5 a : a thing done

from miriam websters



we have free will to decide what option(action) we will take and we always have options(even if they are undesirable or unreasonable ones)

Jesus act of salvation for me requires me to accept him(if I have the OPTION to do so) to see the Father, our FATHER takes this wondrous show of love seriously enough to look unkindly upon those who would blaspheme or outwardly deny it,,,


so, my understanding is, I have the FREE will in life to choose my path and God has given me a book as a guideline and a history of those types of paths which have pleased AND displeased him, part of this path for me is accepting Jesus as savior and in doing so taking his example and his teachings seriously enough to follow them...

I wrote the following reply in another thread but it applies here as as well - so I'm reposting it here.

Here's the thing - when people adopt 'LAWS' that enforce obedience they may or may not be represented in an individuals personal set of values.

This is why civil law is so often disobeyed, because no civil law will ever represent the true values of all people who live under its control.

The fact that there is 'LAW' within any religious view means that there is enforcement (as in forced) adherence to that law. Enforcement of the law means that some kind of retribution is required by those who break the law.

Most Christian views include a punishment for breaking the law or not adhering to it, which would seem to be far worse than any individual punishment that civil societies enforce today.

So once the belief system has been adopted there is a set of ‘laws’ that dictate the behavior of its adherents. OF COURSE not all those laws will be followed – they simply don’t align with individually held values.

Not even a god that people believe in, can dictate the values that people should hold.

I don’t think it’s really all that difficult to understand that concept, so it really becomes difficult to think a god could not.

That’s why I think that freedom to choose a religious perspective means freedom to define personal values without fear of retribution from the source of its inspiration.

You can choose whom ever you wish to worship as God. That is your choice. The rewards will be of the same, you worship Cerridwen as God, then your rewards will come from only Cerridwen. You worship our father as God then your rewards will come from only our father. So choose as you wish, that is your choice.

I mean what's God going to do in this case?

Yell at the child for believing that God is nice, and then cast the child into eternal damnation just because the child thought God was nice.

What sense does that even make?

I don't think it's a matter of people "getting it". I'm sure everyone totally gets the absolute and utter religious bigotry of Christianity.

That's not the point.

The point is would the creator of this universe choose to be a religious bigot?

I personally don't believe that any all-wise creator would be so foolish. Especially in light of the fact that he would be asking people to believe hearsay gossip from an extremely conflicting and questionable source.

The idea that an all-wise God would set up a system of 'salvation' that is based on an extremely confused and fragmented doctrine. The Abrahamic doctrines are anything but clear. They are totally ambiguous and unclear.

This is why so many religions have sprung into being from this single mythology. We have Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, and a whole lot of very diverse forms of Protestantism. And even in all these different sects we have even further denominations and beliefs.

So when you say ONE CURE, which one?

Sure, you're going to point to Christianity because that's the pill you decided to swallow. But maybe you're the one taking the placebo!

Who knows?

Personally I can't imagine an all-wise creator bothering with creating religious bigotry in the first place. Eastern Mysticism sounds far more WISE to me.

I mean, if I'm going honor God by choosing the WISEST spirituality I can find, it would need to be a form of Eastern Mysticism.

To choose one of the Abrahamic religions with their jealous male-chauvinistic Godhead who plays favorites seems to me like that would be an insult to God.

Why would I want to insult God by picking one of the of the most bigoted religions on Earth as my choice of what I think God might be like?

That makes no sense to me.

I mean, I'm just asking.

Eastern Mysticism is absolutely beautiful. And Wicca is even more beautiful.

Surely God is beautiful, not ugly.

So why not choose the most beautiful spirituality?

That seems to me like the best way to honor God.

How could God complain about a child who brings him the most beautiful picture the child can find and asks, "Daddy, is that you?"

What better praise can a child possible give a parent?

I really need 2 connect with a real,reserved n practicing Godfearing man of ages 30-40.

I think a better title for this post would be "differences between being spiritual and being Christian.


Christianity isn't as black and white and absolute as you often claim.There are many forms of Christianity with different ways of worshiping.Catholics have a entirely different way of worshiping then do the Mormons.According to the World Christian Encyclopedia (year 2000 version), global Christianity had 33,820 denominations with 3,445,000 congregations.

So if you are looking for a specific way to look at Christianity you have 33,820 different view points on how to worship God and Jesus and what kind of life to live.Of course all these viewpoints all Holy bible based with Jesus Christ as their savior.

Good deeds does not get a person anything in this life or the next no matter what you are doing.Good deeds are good for the community and your neighbors like you but God does not reward a non believer the same as he does one of his believers.Even so called Christians who claim they are a Christians yet do everything the bible tells them not to do are in danger or serious judgment from God and will be punished in many cases worse than a non believer since Christians know they are disobeying Gods word.


Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."


I think it is also important to remember for Christians your actions will get you punishment and rewards through your actions.I firmly believe those who live by the bible and follow God's words have a much easier and longer life in general than those who do not.


As far as what happens to the non believers despite how good they are.The bible is pretty clear that non believers will be cast into Hell when they die.People often think this idea is flawed and many believe they are going to heaven anyways but this is a lie and there is only one way out of Hell and that is through the belief in Jesus Christ.

When people have problems with this logic.I tell them,"what if all the Christians were wrong and Islam was the true religion.If you died and went to their heaven would you say you deserved the same eternal life and rewards as Muslims even though you haven't done anything at all including reading a single page from their bible"?Seems pretty stupid doesn't it?It's the same logic with Christianity.Why should a Athiest get the same rewards as a Christian who has spent his or her whole going to church,following the bible,and doing what God has commanded?


Christians will be held accountable for their actions,lies,blasphemies,and many other things when they are judged before God.

1 Corinthians 3 says it best...

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.


Matthew 16:26-27
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Revelation 22:11-12
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

uke 21:1-4
"And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."

I have to admit, like others, I’m confused about some Christian views pertaining to free will and how this relates to concepts of salvation.

Many Christians use the term ‘free will’ as a God-given birthright that allows us to analyze situations in our life and ‘freely’ determine the course of our own actions.

According to one Christian view, free-will was given us because it was necessary that humans freely choose to believe in God and Jesus.

That Christian view of free-will seems to hold the belief that individuals can always choose their own course of action, regardless of doctrinal beliefs including ‘divine command’ and moral mandates.

This free-will idea seems necessary in order to prove that their beliefs were of their own choosing and not influenced by the ideologies of others.

Now we introduce the concept of salvation which is a common component in Christian views of Jesus as ‘Christ’ (savior).

Some beliefs associated with Jesus as savior can be best shown through the quotes of one poster from another thread.





The reward of being saved is eternal life without worry, strife, sickness, or any other conflicts.
The way to gain this reward is through faith – ‘choosing’ to believe in God and that salvation only comes through faith in Jesus as the savior

The first element of confusion between free will and the road to salvation has to do with ‘thought, word, & deed’. The individual must FIRST DO SOMETHING before Jesus or God would even consider that individual a possible candidate for eternal salvation.

That something is a free-will choice; to believe in the Christian concepts of God & Jesus as savior.

Now we have to form some connections at this point. If God created humans with the highest order of brain function, AND granted free will to ‘act’ out of choice, then we might assume that our actions should be guided by intellect & logic followed by rational conclusions.

So it seems to me that information is a necessary part of making free-will choices. I don’t find this to be true of Christians who seek to persuade others that their beliefs are the RIGHT choice. In fact the only choice offered, by some Christians, is limited to two things; believe as I do and live eternally or --- suffer some kind of severe consequence.

That action seems to equate to purposely limiting the ‘free-will’ choice of others, especially when there are so many options to choose from. If free will is so important to this decision, I would think that the proper Christian view would be to offer as much information about all options as possible to those who don’t know what other choices are available. In this way, the choice would truly be a free will decision.

The second element of confusion pertains to the idea that thought, word, and deed have nothing to do with salvation which is achieved merely through faith alone.

If this were the case there would be absolutely no need for divine commands, or doctrine that directs behavior toward specific morality. Also in question is the idea that the holy spirit only aids those who believe first, because only those who believe would recognize its influence on behavior. So the FIRST deed is to make some effort to gain information about the available choices for a religious belief system. The second deed is pay attention to the Holy Spirit for guidance. But guidance for what? You already believe at that point.

That leaves only one option available for people to choose belief in God & Jesus - through the testimony of other humans.

Testimony in this case is conflicting and even the bible is silent when it comes to applying moral lessons to current day situations, so all doctrine must be considered suspect of being tainted (in the least) by human influence or at worst being totally contrived. Again, information about all those choices is withheld by those attempting to persuade others to a particular doctrine.

Finally the ideas of “free-will”, combined with “thought, word & deed” seem to conflict with “salvation”.

One of the greatest questions to puzzle Christians has been “What about the salvation of unbelievers?”
The bible is unclear when it comes to this question except to fundamentalists. Fundamentalists believe that every verse in the bible is whole, complete, true, and without error. They have chosen very specific phrases from the bible and determined that NO HUMAN (in human history) is saved without belief. And that only faith is required for salvation.

Surely, throughout human history there have been non-Christians who have attained the moral equivalency of Gods’ standards without holding a belief in the God of Abraham or in Jesus – because not even the torah is old enough for humans to have included some kind of believe in a Christ as a savior.

Again there is conflict in the assumption that salvation is “through faith alone.” Then what is the purpose of the bible and all its stories directed toward actions of thought, word, and deed? What is the purpose of divine command, or any religious doctrine?

It seems to me that the only purpose of Christians to align with any particular doctrine, is to point a finger to themselves as the only true faithful clan of humans worthy of salvation. As if their God would somehow not know who was worthy.

Perhaps it would be better if people did not feel a need to conform to any particular doctrine. In fact it would seem a wiser choice to make simple proclamations of faith and allow ones’ self the opportunity to pursue information through their life-time of experiences. In this way people are more flexible to change, more tolerant of others, and able to determine their own code of ethics.

We have a brain, we have free will, and we have unknown experiences through which to gain undiscovered knowledge. If we commit to extreme beliefs with rigid and illogical doctrinal directives, we create a self-imposed limitation on our own free will in addition to the limitations we accept in order to form civil societies with respect to human rights.

Other views or Christian clarification of the views presented?

Ja,

I'm truly happy for your spiritual revelation. I hope it brings much joy to your throughout your life.

I think you misunderstood Abra's meaning. He has never had the experience of being far from god.

God walks with each of us (from the moment we exist) could you but see through the veil you would know this in truth. When we are born into this world our sprit is born with us... There is no need to be 'born again', only a need to open the eye of the spirit.

When we breath, we breath the breath of god as we take in the air of the earth. Our physical bodies need the one. Our sprit is nutured by the other.