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From Tom4Uhere There Is No "Eternal" Punishment Okay, I agree but not because of anything written in this thread. Then why? Have you seen my thread The End of the World - Eon? |
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From BlakeIAM You haven't shown that there isn't an eternal punishment, but The Word of God has shown there is. The Holy Spirit confirms the truths of God's Word. Any confusion is strictly from the flesh. Right. and misrepresenting the words in the Scriptures is part of God's plan. Actually, I already have proven there is no "eternal" punishment. But you have not answered my question. In this verse the word "eon" is plural. How many "eternities" do you think there are? |
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Edited by
BigD9832
on
Sat 05/19/18 08:32 AM
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From iam_resurrected Revelation 20 CJB The Complete Jewish Bible 10 The Adversary who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. this is the Jewish version and translation of the Revelation. notice verse 10 carefully and specifically at the end of it. it does not state the sinners not found written in the book of Life will suffer this, after being cast into the Lake of Fire. but it does state the Adversary, Beast, and False Prophet will be tormented day/night forever...obviously this would include the fallen [demonic] angels. so it does appear there will be eternal suffering. it does not state concerning sinners, not found written and then cast into the Lake of fire, if they partake in this eternal suffering. but it does state those responsible for sin, and those entities who are direct spiritual enemies of God, THEY will be suffering for all eternity!! Every NT manuscript is a "Jewish" version. CLV Matt 15:24 Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." CLV Matt 10:6 Yet be going rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. CLV Acts 5:31 This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins. The Gentiles were not invited to the gospel until Paul's ministry. So where does this "Jewish version and translation of the Revelation" come from? What manuscripts were they translated from? The Concordant Literal Version was translated from the 4 oldest and most complete Ancient Koine Greek manuscripts... Codex Vaticanus (a & b) Codex Alexandrinus Codex Sinaiticus Today every English NT is checked against these manuscripts. Every one. CLV Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. Once again, as in my above post, the "eons" or "ages" are described in the plural. How many "eternities" did you think there are? "the Adversary, Beast, and False Prophet will be tormented day/night forever." Not "forever." Just for an "eon." You have not shown that there is an "eternal" punishment. |
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Edited by
BigD9832
on
Sat 05/19/18 08:12 AM
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From BlakeIAM Daniel 12:2 Matthew 25:46 Rev. 14:11 CLV Dan 12:2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion. Strong's H5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from H5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always. Compare H5331, H5703. This word does NOT mean "eternity." Ancient man had no concept of 1000 years. To them, much like today, 1000 years might as well have been an "eternity." To us, it's just a number as no one has ever lived to be 1000 years old. An "eon" is an "age." It has a beginning and an end. Eternity has no beginning, so it cannot "start." CLV Matt 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." This is the same word as 'olam' except in Ancient Greek, and has the same meaning. This word does NOT mean "eternal." An "eon" has a beginning and an ending. CLV Rev 14:11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having not rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name. Again, the Ancient Greek term 'aion' is the same as the Ancient Hebrew term 'olam." In this verse the word "eon" is plural. How many "eternities" do you think there are? The words 'olam' and 'aion' both represent an age, with a beginning and an ending. The duration of an eon might be 1000 years or more, but it does have an ending. In this case, as in Matt 25:46, the word "eon" represents what we call the Millennium, which is defined as 1000 years in the Book of Revelation. You have not shown an "eternal" punishment. From notbeold Since the Earth is claimed to be only a bit more than 5,000 years old, created in the same week as everything else, it and everything else is not eternal, there is no eternity since there is a 'recognised' set beginning which does not extend to infinity or eternity.  That is not Scriptural. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Earth is 5,000 years old. So then mankind was hopeless for tens of thousands of years until a god came along to give us hope. Actually, the story of mankind includes his fall from God. The tens of thousands of years before Genesis mankind was not mortal and was not confined to the Earth alone. Have you ever read the Story of Adam and Eve from the Apocrypha? |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
Edited by
BigD9832
on
Thu 05/17/18 02:15 PM
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From JasonKM The Hebrew term 'satan' is a verb and title, not a name. It means arguer or adversary, old Hebrew was a very limited dialect and most words are loose and ambiguous compared to more modern languages. As a title it was given to public advocates, ie. lawyers. Sounds alot like Ancient Koine Greek. It developed over time (about 1000 years) into a modern language but was a pretty basic language. I believe it was a fisherman's language at the start. Strong's H7854 satan saw-tawn' from H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good. Strong's G1228 diabolos dee-ab'-ol-os from G1225; a traducer; specially, Satan (compare H7854). traduce: verb (used with object), traduced, traducing. 1 : to expose to shame or blame by means of falsehood and misrepresentation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traduce I think we can get a good picture of the Adversary by reading the Book of Job. CLV Jb 2:3 Yahweh said to the Adversary, Have you set your heart ›on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and keeping away from evil. And he still is holding fast to his integrity, though you would incite Me against him to swallow him up gratuitously. 4 Then the Adversary answered Yahweh, saying, Skin in behalf of skin, for all that a man has would he give in behalf of his soul. 5 Nevertheless, now put forth your hand and touch ›his bone and his flesh. He shall assuredly scorn you to your face. The English word 'devil' comes from the old English, deuil, which is a translation of the latin, daemon or demon, which in turn is the translation of the greek damon, which means divine messenger or ancestral spirit and was used as a substitute for the word seraphim when rabbi wrote in greek instead of Hebrew, because greek is a more concise language than Hebrew, which is as mentioned a very limited and inherently ambiguous dialect in early forms when scripture was first written down. Satan translates to lawyer, or someone who is acting like a lawyer in an argument. Devil literally means angel, there is no differentiation. And "angel" means messenger... Strong's H4397 mal'ak mal-awk' from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher). The evangelical concept of Hell simply doesn't exist either in Judaism or early Christian script, it was borrowed from pagan beliefs at the time, which often happened during various stages of christianization. The concept of Hell is taken from Greek mythology where Tartarus was the burning chamber of incarceration within the afterlife realm, Hades which was ruled by the god of earthly realms, Hades. There was also a kind of heaven in Hades. Zeus ruled the divine sky, Poseidon the changing seas and Hades earthly mortality, that was the Greek trinity. Later, during north European Christianization the terms were changed from Greek but again mixed with local paganism to describe the same concept, which was Greek, except now they used Germanic terms in which the land of the dead was called Nifleheim, in which was a domain called Hel, which was ruled upon by a monstrous goddess named Hel. In Germanic mythology heaven as it were, was in a completely different location whereas originally in the Greek it was in the same neighbourhood, so the new alignment was borrowed too. Some good research here. There was no hell originally in Judaism, the closest Hebrew term for the concept is that of Sheol, a word that describes the slum neighbourhood of ancient cities, where dead were burned in the street. It was where the most impoverished lived in these cities, so was rife with destitution, disease and the smell of burning flesh. Sheol as such describes a rather unpleasant existence, but an earthly one and describes nothing whatsoever about any fairy lands. Early Christianity started upon this basis but received a tremendous amount of local pagan influence, simply because most early converts had been brought up viewing things in such a manner, and it was much more loose with parables and metaphors by intention, where Judaism in Hebrew is more a linguistics issue and involves a lot of arguing to decide what scripture is even saying between rabbi. Strong's H7585 sh'owl sheh-ole' or shol {sheh-ole'}; from H7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates. I have not seen it represented as a city. In the Scriptures, it is called the Unseen or Unperceived. It is the figurative place where all souls go at death. So it's like two jews talking and one says they have a terrible lot in life, the other remarks, gee you must really live in Sheol, whilst a Christian with a classical education scribes the conversation and substitutes the term Gehenna, but then it is rewritten into latin about 5 centuries later as Hell, and a pentacostal comes along and says, my god, it's a real place! Ah yes, Gehenna. The Valley of Hinnom. It is a real place. An actual physical place you can find on the map. It was used as a garbage dump for Jerusalem. It was situated on a sulphur deposit, so a fire would burn hotter than a normal fire. It was also used as a "Potters Field" of sorts, where vagrants and criminals were "buried." I have traced "hell" to about the 10th century, so far. It was considered the coldest place in existence. So cold that demons and devils were depicted as blue, not red. The fire was added later, from Gehenna. That's how you wound up with hell in Christianity. Similar story with the devil. Lucifer is a name but not a real one, it's a title taken by rulers like Josh the Fearful. It is believed by most scholars it was probably the battlefield title of Nebadchannezzar III. Not a spirit being. And before you say the greatest trick of the devil is making people believe he doesn't exist, the word devil as previously described is a mistranslation (due to modern meaning) of the Hebrew seraphim. Doesn't mean anything more than that. It's just a derivative of the Greek, damon which means divine messenger or ancestral spirit. Very good. Lucifer comes from a mistake in the Septiguant. He is often confused with the King of Tyre from Ezekiel. edit. it should also be mentioned archaic Hebrew in which earliest scriptures are written uses masculine and feminine linguistic forms, which is why god seems a bit schizo as LORD God in one phrase and creator God in another. Some scholars believe Judaism was originally pantheistic and became monotheistic sometime around the 5th century BC, ie. God was a married couple with a host of demigods not too unlike other period religions, Mr and Mrs God, but the Mrs God sort of got lost along the way, or absorbed into the new omnipotent multifaceted God of many personalities and forms. Interesting... CLV Gn 1:26 And Elohim said: Let Us dmake humanity in Our image and according to Our likeness. Let them hold sway over the fish of the sea and over the flyer of the heavens, over the domestic beast, over every land animal and over every creeper that is creeping on the earth. 27 So Elohim created humanity in His image; in the image of Elohim He created it: male and female He created them. Male and female He created them. Good job. Very interesting work.  |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
Edited by
BigD9832
on
Thu 05/17/18 09:35 AM
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From iam_resurrected you are correct after researching, it appears after the Great White Throne judgement, whoever is not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. which means as of this very moment, those people who are dead in their graves and [[[[[not found]]]]] written in the Book of Life are still just rotting in their graves. they will appear before Yeshua during the Judgment and then be cast into the Lake of Fire. what I did notice however, the Hebrew Jews assumed being born a Jew automatically granted them a spot in heaven. so, with this kind of mindset, they never thought about the possibility of being the ones not spending eternity with God. therefore, they never had the need to write about a place where they believed they never would end up at. WOW, hell and trinity are both lying concepts in mainstream Christianity. interesting, very very very interesting!! All mankind that dies will be rotting in their graves until Jesus returns. But I am glad to see you are doing some research. That is why it is important to separate the doctrines of men from what God wants us to do. One more thing. The people that go into the Lake of Fire, there is nothing that says they will stay there. Now read over my thread on The End of the World - Eon. There is some interesting stuff there. Paul defined 5 eons. Can you find them? and what Peter mentions as Tartus and the Abyss are for fallen [Demons] angels only!! Good job!
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
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 https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/giants/hel/ There is no explanation from Dodo_David as to how this pagan goddess got into the Bible if indeed that is what it is. There is also a "hell" of sorts in Egyptian myths, Hinduism, Ancient Mesopotamia, and several other pagan religions.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being) As "Hel" is a goddess, she does not fit the description of the English version of "hell." Neither does "Hades," the brother of Zeus. Also, this site says "Hel" was from Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century. That is about 1000 years since the NT was formed. I am a Christian. I believe and follow Jesus Christ (and Christ Jesus). I do not pay much attention to pagan religions. There is no "hell" in the Scriptures. |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
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From iam_resurrected Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. So basically iam_resurrected is making my argument for me. If one can escape (or be delivered) from "hell" then others can as well. This proves that "hell" is not "eternal." According to the KJV, anyway. Unless the word 'sheol' means something other than "hell." |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
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From iam_resurrected you enjoy that Greek version of wrongness, BigD, I always have the translation I prefer more than the KJV... The Ancient Koine Greek is where your Bible comes from. It's where all the NTs come from. But I will tell you one thing for sure. The word "hell" is not in the "The Complete Jewish Bible". For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." [[[[[Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a);]]]]] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. A figurative equivalent for "hell." As there is no "hell" in the Scriptures, there can be no literal equivalent. I don't know where you are getting this from, but here is the entry on Gehenna from the Jewish Encyclopedia...  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna In case Mingle won't allow the graphic I posted the web page it comes from. It explains why this valley was considered accursed. But this place was never considered to be "hell." The Ancient Jews did not believe in a "hell." Nor did they believe that anyone was going to heaven after death. They looked forward to the Resurrection of all mankind by the Messiah and his accompanying kingdom. Your "Complete Jewish Bible" NT is from Messianic Jewish Publishers. Not very old at all. And not strictly Jewish. So there is no way they would consider Yeshua as "hell." And there is no mention of a "hell" during creation in Genesis. As a matter of fact, the word "hell" does not appear anywhere in the Ancient Hebrew text. CLV John 11:23 Jesus is saying to her, "Your brother will be rising." 24 Martha is saying to Him, "I am aware that he will be rising in the resurrection in the last day." The Scriptures and it's various reference books are not like a Smorgasbord. You can't just pick and choose the meanings and words you like because they happen to fit into your belief system. You have to take them as they come. wrongness? I don't think so. From mikey4yousweety You are correct David. Anyone with good knowledge knows that it was written in brail. I've seen the movie 'book of Eli 'winking Oh yeah. I remember that movie. Good flick. |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
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Ice cream isn't "in" the bible, but yet it exist. Can you show us the passage in the Bible where it says Jesus ate ice cream? Blondey111... A very good website. Thank you. http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html |
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Not my position, just the truth from God's inspired Word. OK. Let's see it. |
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From iam_resurrected Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. if this verse means GRAVE then a rod beating might get you there faster...but...this claims it will save you from HELL. since we know all of us will physically die, this verse definitely is speaking of another place called hell. NOW, where would that hell be [like it isn't obvious]. plus, this verse proves for those who believe there is NO ETERNAL DAMNATION...YOU ARE WRONG ACCORDING TO THIS VERSE!! That would be incorrect. If this is from the KJV (and since you have not revealed what English version you are using, so I can only guess) the word is not "grave" but "hell." If it was "grave" it would spell "g-r-a-v-e." You cannot interchange the English words just because they are on a list. Now, when you write your own English version you can use whatever word you like. So according to the KJV a soul can be delivered from "hell." This proves that "hell" is not "eternal." That is if you are using the KJV. This is what we call inconsistently translated. But I don't blame the translators. They labored under their king as the final authority, not the Scriptures. If the king said to use the word "hell," they would have only one response. "Yes, your Majesty." But many of us know the truth. The word 'sheol' does not mean "hell." Not in the real world. |
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There IS eternal punishment . All DO NOT get saved. All DO NOT go to Heaven. Christ on The Cross was not in vain. God is a holy righteous and just God. All attempts do deny the above truths will be absolutely futile and absurd . Not! But I won't argue with you. Just post the Scripture that proves your position on this matter. |
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Edited by
BigD9832
on
Tue 05/15/18 01:05 PM
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From msharmony I think of it that God will SAVE from torture those who do not reject him and Jesus Christ. death is the wage for all of us, unless we are saved. Hell is the natural consequence, whatever the detail, of not being Saved. Everyone rationalizes the version of God they want to believe in. We will find out the true version when we die. There is no "hell" and there is no "eternal" punishment in the Scriptures. All of mankind will be saved. Some sooner than others. The wage of sin is death, but... CLV 1Co 15:51 Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, 52 in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. And who shall be saved? CLV Ro 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all. CLV 1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. CLV 1Ti 4:10 (for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. CLV 1Co 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all. The answer is ALL! This is one of the hardest concepts to believe among Christians. |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
Edited by
BigD9832
on
Tue 05/15/18 12:52 PM
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iam_resurrected...  CLV Deut 32:22 For a fire, it will be kindled by My anger, And it shall glow unto the unseen beneath; It shall devour the earth and its crop, And it shall set aflame the foundations of the mountains. CLV Pr 23:14 You shall smite him with the club And so rescue his soul from the unseen. CLV Isa 14:15 Nevertheless, to the unseen shall you be brought down, To the remote parts of the crypt! CLV Matt 5:22 Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, `Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, `Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. Nowhere in the Scriptures does the term "hell" appear. It must be interpreted there. Your KJV was taken from Tyndale's Bible in a roundabout way. Tyndale was a Catholic priest. From Dodo_David Hell and the Lake of Fire are two separate topics. Agreed. |
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I guess the truth will be unquestionable once we have died. I suppose you are right. |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
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God is so holy and righteous that their has to be an eternal place of pure justice regarding the wicked. Example: Satan and the third of angels that rebelled against God in all His glory. Also the Anti-Christ (AKA the beast), and the false prophet. And, guess what? There is. The lake of fire that burneth forever. Can you show in the Scriptures that the Lake of fire will burn men forever? |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
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The Lake of Fire is mentioned 4 times in the Scriptures. All in the Book of Revelation. It is a symbol, but not a literal place. I see no evidence in the Bible that the lake of fire is a symbol. Well, of course, there is. The Book of Revelation is full of symbolism. The very fact that it is on revelation and no other book shows that it is symbolic. Have you ever seen a Lake of Fire? |
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a JUST God would. Just: legally correct some people break laws and are sent to jail, some put on probation, others fined, and still others are drugged or electrocuted to death Sounds like the laws of men, not God. God determines based on Gods law, the just end to our choices based on our conscious offenses and KNOWLEDGE of those ends. There is no "end" to man. Just new beginnings. Who shall be Saved? CLV Ro 11:32 For God locks up all together into/in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all. CLV 1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. CLV 1Ti 4:10 (for into/for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. CLV Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all into/to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. CLV 1Cor 15:51 Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed |
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Topic:
Is There a Place Called Hell
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On a serious note . . . This topic is about a word originating from Norse mythology. No, the word Hell isn't in the Greek New Testament manuscripts. However, Hell is the Norse equivalent of the Greek Hades. In Greek mythology, Hades is where all people go when they die, with the worst people going to Tartarus instead. Hades, in turn, is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol. Regarding the final destination of those who reject Messiah Jesus, Revelation chapter 20 refers to that place as the lake of fire. First off it is spelled "hel," not "hell." It is part of the Nordic Mythology which is generally called Pagan, as is the Roman Mythology. 'Hades' is a translation of the Hebrew term 'sheol' which literally is rendered the "unseen." The word 'hades' also means the "Unseen," which is why it was used in the Scriptures. Unfortunately, the word 'hades' comes to us with baggage. Hades was one of the brothers of Zeus, was the god of the underworld. Again, Pagan myths. I don't see anything in the Scriptures that tells us the Lake of Fire is a "final destination" for anyone. Can you show this in the Scriptures? |
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