Australian combat troops the war in Iraq is over.

The Defence Force in southern Iraq formally handed its commitment to the United States and lowered the Australian flag above Camp Terendak, at the US-run air base Tallil, at a ceremony yesterday morning.

The handover, which fulfils the Rudd Government's election commitment to withdraw Australia's combat troops from a deeply divisive war, was based on an agreement between Australian and US commanders.

About 550 soldiers, who have been overseeing Iraqi security forces in two southern provinces as well as training Iraqi troops and police, will begin returning to Australia.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/australia-lowers-flag-in-iraq/2008/06/01/1212258648064.html

What is there to cheer? Sorry i guess i don't understand...

Possibly because they shouldnt be there to start with and they are going home?

works for me

Can we play follow the leader and do it too?

Ok, so is it the added strain on American troops that's a good thing? (Not that the Aussies were actually doing much anyway) Or is it the possibility that everyone wants American troops to follow suit so that millions of Iraqi people can all die from our abandonment and we can be deemed an even bigger enemy? Perhaps that would make it so all the soldiers that died already ACTUALLY died for nothing? Wouldn't that be cool? I guess i cant really blame so many for being naive since not many have actually been there.

You are right Drivenmenutz, alot of us haven't been there and don't know what is actually going on. All we have to go on is what is told to us by the media. So enlighten us. What purpose are the troops serving over there? What are they accomplishing? And why hasn't that country taken the initiative to do something for themselves? For as long as the troops have been over there, shouldn't they be able to do something on their own by now? And if not, why?

Glad you asked. Unlike CNN would have you believe (especially since it's near election time) Iraqi forces are growing. The last i heard something like 80% of the country was actually being controlled by Iraqi forces (according to friends of mine that were there recently). Anyway, even when i was there iraqi forces did quite a bit more than the media will have you believe. I've personally seen them kick down doors and go after people themselves.

Kinda a sweet thing to see since they aren't so paranoid about offending their people like we are. This is why i want to personally slap anyone that thinks American soldiers are brutes that like to bomb things senslessly without regards to civilian welfare. (Especially since i am still sore about orders not to shoot at people that were shooting at me simply because they were in a mosque.)

Now, as far the country is concerned about completely taking over there are a few different factors at work here. For starters you have the Sunis and Shiites who just don't seem to agree on anything and they both want to run the place. (Sounds kinda like dems and republicans )

Another major factor is intereference from Syria and Iran. (Which you also don't hear much about from CNN). This is why i think the borders of that country should be sealed off until they get back on their feet. But anyway, you have a supposed terrorist-run country like Syria and Iran that see another country (former enemy to Iran) in peril. Kinda their best interest to ensure that we pull out so they can fund and supply which ever organization is in their best interest and BOOM they have an instant ally. (Which is why almost 50% of the insurgents i personally came into contact with (over 100) were from either of these countries.) An ally that HATES us for just leaving them there to die, and LOVES them for being their "savior". If you ask me i think this is tactically what we fear even more then the country falling under that catagory of genocide. But, also, Iraq falling under genocide would be horrible for the U.S. politically. (Which is another reason why i highly doubt any candidate will actually pull us out.)

The media has been against this cause for a long time now. And constant talks about us pulling out is pretty much encouraging those keeping us from making much progress. The media is partially to blame for our lack of success. Hell just look at Abu Graib (sp?). Why on earth anyone thought it would be a good idea to go to the press instead of the authorities (who yes would have dones something about it) really baffles me. The press, for the most part, want us to lose. Partially since many are very much affiliated with the democratic party and partially since tragety gets you much bigger ratings. (note: propoganda is our weak suit, and any terrorists strongest suit)

So i guess our struggles are the media, outside countries (Iran and Syria), and their conflicting interests. All pretty big factors. But none of these are impossible to overcome.

The media coverage should back off a bit. Stop trash talking. But this wont happen since this is the democrat's biggest advantage in the elections. (No, i am not a republican nor am i trying to trash talk the dems. Both parties have pretty much gone to hell in my opinion)

Anyway, with less of an eye focusing on every little detail with our troops and their missions they will have more success winning the hearts and minds of the people. Sealing off the borders, would help break off the threat of outside interference. This wouldn't solve the problem but it would help.

Overall i do agree that there needs to be a plan, and it seems like not a lot has been accomplished over the course of our time there. I'm not against a plan of action. Especially one that puts more pressure on the Iraqi government. But this plan shouldn't be publicised since there are so many working against us.

People for the most part are happier. They have better medical care, more food, and more rights than they ever have before. Also, no, we NEVER carpet bombed the place. Their infastructure is still in tact. We are in no way responsible for this "million" deaths people keep preaching (this number includes people dying in car accidents, domestic desputes, old age, heart attacks,etc.)

On a more personel note: I don't have a problem with anyone saying that something needs to change about our strategy. I don't even have a problem with UNBIASED investigating on why we went over in the first place. My problem is people oversimplifying a complex problem. Some people actuall think that us pulling out means the war will end... It won't. And even if pulling out is the best course of action (which it's not) anyone that would cheer such a thing needs to be shot at for a while. This tragic desicion is a last resort only, which means it should be sad. And we should instead have a moment of silence instead of a cheer.

the war is over for the ausies and I am sure many american GI's wish it were over for them.

That sounds exactly what I would expect a good grunt to say driven. Exactly what the military tells you. There is no way you can expect to know anything outside your AO, let alone all Iraq! You have either read it like the rest of us or going by what the military tells you. They would love to silence the and media have complete censorship of the truth.
================================================================
http://www.mercurynews.com/politics/ci_9462259 >>>Like this,

"What can we say to the American public to say ... there are some things you can see that will make you feel better about what our military is doing and any progress we have made?"—Question posed by an unidentified military analyst to then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Peter Pace in an April 2006 conference call.

or this,

I have written an essay, if you will, on the subject, which I'm supposed to talk about and record this afternoon. I wonder if I might just send it to you for a truth check if that's OK."—Retired Army Maj. Gen. Robert Scales to Defense Department officials during a June 2006 conference call on the involvement of Marines in the 2005 killings of Iraqis in Haditha.

or this,

"If you allow the Chris Matthews or the Wolf Blitzers of the world to immediately start dissecting the standup of that government and say this guy is bad, (Iraqi politician Ahmed) Chalabi's a crook ... and you don't respond immediately, we are going to lose that capability to say what we did was honorable and good and right."—Unidentified military analyst in April 2006 call, advising Rumsfeld to be more aggressive in responding to critical questions by the media.

================================================================

First, Were you there before the war?
Do you consider all the bombing victims that die daily to be natural deaths, and do you think they happened before the war?
I'll answer, NO, NO, and NO!

Do you speak Arabic?
How do you know they are happier?
Every report I've read says 68% of Iraqis think its okay to kill American Soldiers, and even more want us to leave.

The Iraq military,
Last count-180,000 trained equipped and ready, according to Petraeus! Far more than we have there, but as demonstrated in Basra and Sadr City, they wont fight and are ineffective.

Control-80%, that must be a misprint because that isn't even close to being accurate. The US military doesn't even have control over 80% of the country.

If Sadr doesn't maintain his seize fire agreements, the death count of American troops goes up, and the loyalty of the Iraqi troops goes South. I'd almost say he has more control in Iraq than anyone else.

Probably the Iraqis you see kicking in doors is more ethnic violence and bravado when American troops are standing across the street watching. Quite a bit of the Iraqi Army consists of Sunni militia's taken in whole when the Iraqis couldn't get anyone else to fight. (See Basra)

I'm sure most of them would rather go home because the mission was accomplished...

Im glad the Aussies pulled out.

The US military can stand on its own (we dont need help)
Bush said to the world early on, you're either with us or against us.(69% of Americans have said they dont stand with him)

If he stands alone, (internationally) with his screwed up foreign policies the more isolated he becomes and the less likely he will do something else stupid. (like bomb Iran)

Maybe now Congress will reign him in!!

Neoconservative foriegn policy = Isolationism... yea, I could see that.

By the way, I don't know if you've seen it yet, Fanta, but there's some props waiting for you in the McDictator thread.

And in response to your comment Fanta... I am glad you don't take personally what i say. I do feel you have a much bigger understanding of our situation due to your military experience. I will admit that that 80% figure was just something i heard from someone working with military intelligence. Could have been just a rumor, but it wasn't something he was officially briefed on.

The Green Berets i worked with had a group of these Iraqi National Guard members spearheading many of our raids (capturing insurgents). They also played a big part whenever we did cordon searches of towns.

Any statistical information you gather about whether or not Iraqi people are happier is very speculatory. I guess you have to ask the right questions to the right people. Something i've learned in statistics classes. Any statistic can be manipulated to work in your favor. Al Sadre wouldn't be that big of a threat if we went after him. Our army is much better trained/equiped. But i don't really know much about him to be honest with you. I do remember an encounter with him in which 300 of his men were killed trying to attack us. As far as i remember we had no fatalities from that encounter.

But i stand behind this. We do give them better medical attention. We do not carelessly bomb buildings and city blocks. And another comment i would like to point out is the FACT that almsot all the civilian deaths were the targeting of them from insurgents that want us to leave. And they have more rights now than they ever have before. Whether or not they are happy with these rights is up to them i suppose.

I would also like to point out that i was never told to say any of this by anybody. I'm not in the military anymore. They haven't controlled me for a couple years now. Another important thing i would like to point out is my problem is people cheering us pulling out. It is a sad day when we give up. It is a sad day to declare our soldiers deaths for nothing. It's a sad do no matter how you look at it.

Also note: Not you nor I have the full knowledge of whatever is going on in this matter. So i guess i'm just as ignorant as anyone that is voting to pull us out when i say that i know whats best for this war. We really don't have enough information to make an intelligent decision.

Don't you consider it a military victory driven?

I do, while the politicians say it would effectively be a surrender to pull out I dont see it that way.

We kicked their butts and that's all there is to it.

It might be a political loss, but I consider that Bush's fault not the military..

Drivinmenutz



Just out of curiosity, when do you think we can pull out from there? Yes leaving a base there is an option, but when you start to leave Iraq to the Iraqis?
Unless you plan to make it the 51st state they need to be able to care for themselves. How many more soldier killed does that take?
And don't answer "a la Bush" enough of that bull****...

First of all i say again.... Leaving is a last resort. If the Leaders and soldiers on the ground get together and report the situation a loss, that is acceptable. Everyone is drawing tactical knowledge from everyone's (mostly untrained civilians) opinions. Most of congress as well as the executive branch aren't even qualified to make tactical decisions. Honestly, i haven't heard many people actually consult military personel about whether we should give up or proceed as planned.

Another thing that bothers me is everyone hiding behind the death toll. What the eff do you think happens in a war? The number of casualties is actually quite small considering other conflicts we've had in the past. I'm not down talking the quality of soldiers lives. I've had a few friends not make it back. I say again, i've got well over 150 combat ops under my belt, so i am no stranger to the realities of this war. But this is something that happens.

Look, i'm not saying that the situation was handled wisely from the beginning. If a grunt was in charge instead of a politician the war would have been over and Iraq would have a full-working democratic government in about a year's time. Our problem tactically is everyone afraid of making citizens angry at the sight of a war. You can't fight it with roses and bunny rabbits. (Unless you're Monty Python )

Zogby: 72% of US Troops Surveyed Say Leave Iraq in 2006
http://bbsnews.net/index.php?topic=terrorwar

Different branches had quite different sentiments on the question, the poll shows.

While 89% of reserves and
82% of those in the National Guard said the U.S. should leave Iraq within a year,

58% of Marines think so.
Seven in ten of those in the regular Army thought the U.S. should leave Iraq in the next year.


That is as early a study as I can find. My Nephew says pretty much what this boy says,



For the record, I'm actually on leave from Iraq. But if you think I'm going to post this from an internet room at my base's MWR, you're freakin' nuts. I've worried about Bush tapping those lines long before we found out he was tapping phones without a warrant in the good old US of A.

This subject has been touched on by other vets who post on here, but I don't think it's been made into a whole diary until now.

We need to get out because our military cannot take much more of this. We are stretched too thin and it's about to get worse.

Currently our troop strength is bleak. Most of the "old Army" is gone now. Almost all of the Soldiers that I knew who had 15+ years in have since retired and left the military. They leave because they are tired of deploying and being away from their families. Now it's the rookies that are left fighting.

It may have been Clinton's Army that toppled Saddam, but it's Bush's Army that is left with the insurgents.

When I first left for Iraq, we had that problem. Most of our leadership had left after our first stint in OEF. To fix the gaping hole in our leadership, the brass decided to do 2 things:


1)- Slap some extra rank on Soldiers and give them a leadership position they weren't ready for.


2)- Take Soldiers who did have the rank and leadership position and put them in a job they weren't trained for (example: Artillery being put in charge of MPs).


As a result we have leadership that is too inexperienced and overwhelmed to do their job. But wait! It gets worse!

Soldiers are frustrated. Every soldier I have talked to says that they are getting out of the military when they get home. Every. One. Of. Them. Regardless of rank, experience, or time in, they all want out. There has not been a single Soldier I've talked to that says they want to stay in. This include officers, NCOs, and rookies who are on their first tour of duty.

We need to get out of Iraq because Iraq is the reason why the military is shrinking. We, like Cindy Sheehan, are curious as to what "noble cause" we are fighting for. We can't seem to find one.

All news to me. Maybe it's because they tied me to a chair and water boarded me until i was preaching "go bush, go war!"

Seriously dude, i think you will find 80% of the people surveyed had never actually left the compound when in country. You know and i know only 20% of all the soldiers ever sent over, ever actually saw a firefight (less then that actually ever regularly left their secured bases). When you don't leave the compound, and aren't collecting intel, you don't know what's going on. You just know that it's a pain in the ass to be away from home. Sorry, but i don't know anybody that was ever surveyed about that question. I know many that were over there during that time frame. All were grunts. None were ever asked. Almost all of my friends that were over there with me, as well as friends that have been over tehre since, pretty much all agree with me.

This is how they use surveys to manipulate people. Ever notice how like ever toothpaste commercial says "4 out of 5 dentists surveyed recommend this product." ? Seriously, i would not believe most surveys on this matter. Especially since military sites show surveys that say exactly the opposite. Both are probably biased.

I'd like to see the joint chiefs have a sit down with grunt commanders on this matter. Find out what they really think and why. Maybe they could get together and find a way of resolving the matter without allowing the slaughter of millions of people. (Sorry if i still see this choice as a last resort.)

See, this is what confuses me the most. I've talked to lots of guys that were over there, came home, and would love the opportunity to go back. But then, heres this guys saying that everyone of the soldiers he's been in contact with all want out.

And if that isn't bad enough, now the soldiers are questioning what they are fighting for. If they don't know, then how in the heck are we at home supposed to support a war where the people that are doing the fighting don't even know what they are fighting for?

I completely support our troops no matter what it is they are doing, because that is their job. But how can we expect them to do what they are supposed to do, if they don't even know the reason why they are doing it?