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| Topic: JW?S | |
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Most mainstream churches are not like this. You don't attend every Sunday no one will question you. You don't do the required amount of hours preaching, no one will bother you about it. No one will even bother if you are having sex with someone or are living with someone of the opposite sex. But not if you are a Witness. I **was* talking about the mainstream churches *I* have been to who all seem to want to baptise me into *their* church...when I was already baptised years ago thank you. Also, when you are baptised in *any* church..they ask you if you understand what you are doing, agreeing freely...and understand what being baptised means.. (just like being "saved") |
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I **was* talking about the mainstream churches *I* have been to who all seem to want to baptise me into *their* church...when I was already baptised years ago thank you. Also, when you are baptised in *any* church..they ask you if you understand what you are doing, agreeing freely...and understand what being baptised means.. (just like being "saved") Agreed. Most do want you to be baptized again especially if your baptism happened when you were an infant. The whole "born again" belief is what brought this about. I think that if you agreed to follow the beliefs set out in the scriptures that your faiths believes in you should not have to get baptized again. But then I can't agree with ALL of the teachings of any church. If it is what someone wants I won't stop them. But I think every person should be free to reference what they have been taught and make sure what it is they are dedicating themselves to |
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Edited by
I_love_bluegrass
on
Tue 11/20/18 04:39 PM
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Agreed. Most do want you to be baptized again especially if your baptism happened when you were an infant. The whole "born again" belief is what brought this about. I think that if you agreed to follow the beliefs set out in the scriptures that your faiths believes in you should not have to get baptized again. But then I can't agree with ALL of the teachings of any church. If it is what someone wants I won't stop them. But I think every person should be free to reference what they have been taught and make sure what it is they are dedicating themselves to Understand..I am not arguing with you.. Just asking why when I already did the whole baptism thing years ago (and no, I was NOT an infant..and infant has no way to know what he/ she is agreeing to or what it means) But..if you are baptised as *I* understand it...as affirmation of your beliefs and acceptance of Jesus....then why wouldn't once be enough? I see nothing Biblical (in the Bible) about needing to be baptised numerous times... It's like the Church of Christ thinks the Baptists didn't do it right...or the Pentacostals don't agree with how the Methodists do it.. It's not about what man (in the larger sense of "man") thinks/ does..it is the conditon of the heart and intention of the person getting baptised that is important... |
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Understand..I am not arguing with you.. Just asking why when I already did the whole baptism thing years ago (and no, I was NOT an infant..and infant has no way to know what he/ she is agreeing to or what it means) But..if you are baptised as *I* understand it...as affirmation of your beliefs and acceptance of Jesus....then why wouldn't once be enough? I see nothing Biblical (in the Bible) about needing to be baptised numerous times... It's like the Church of Christ thinks the Baptists didn't do it right...or the Pentacostals don't agree with how the Methodists do it.. It's not about what man (in the larger sense of "man") thinks/ does..it is the conditon of the heart and intention of the person getting baptised that is important... I totally agree with you. It should not be necessary. I was baptized in the United church when I was an infant. I agree that that is a promise the parents and godparents make. It certainly isn't the infant. The adults make a promise to raise the child in that faith. Interesting that they don't require the child to make a promise when they become adults. It only seems important when the person changes church. Nonsensical. I was baptized again when I was 17 into the JWs. Not doing it again. |
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Edited by
I_love_bluegrass
on
Tue 11/20/18 05:37 PM
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I totally agree with you. It should not be necessary. I was baptized in the United church when I was an infant. I agree that that is a promise the parents and godparents make. It certainly isn't the infant. The adults make a promise to raise the child in that faith. Interesting that they don't require the child to make a promise when they become adults. It only seems important when the person changes church. Nonsensical. I was baptized again when I was 17 into the JWs. Not doing it again. I have left/ quit going to churches/ denomonations when they start to make with the pushy baptism stuff.. One *told me* I was on the program to be baptised the following Sunday...I was like..wait a minute..I didn't agree to this, and certainly have no intention of doing so.." To be a member of their church (a denomination I had attended on different place for years), I was told I had to be baptised *in* their church.. I said "well...then I guess I don't need to be a member here....bye.." It's almost like they get credits or brownie points for the number of people they baptise...LOL |
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I guess I am different. For me, people are people, regardless of religious beliefs. I generally speak to them based on how they speak to me, individually. I have sat down over a lemonade with Mormons, I have done bible study with Jehovah's witnesses. If they have manners, I have no problem listening and making clear my own questions and beliefs. I have not really had any problems, to be honest. In Ohio I had a JW family that would come to my home and we would have Bible study(at their suggestion) where I was free to comment and ask questions, so I did so, from a place of respect and not disdain or ridicule or condescension. I even went with them to Kingdom Hall a couple of times. Im pretty patient, but they eventually stopped coming round when it was clear that I was not likely to join up with them. Same thing with the Mormons, the elders came around weekly for a year, took me to their services a few times, and everyone was very friendly and worked alot of charity, which I was impressed with, it was still some core beliefs I could not quite get past and I told them this honestly. Eventually, they also stopped coming around. But it was always respectful and never any problem, at least not for me. Its funny though the stereotypes we all hold. Even when I was at a mormon education class (they hold them after their service). I sat and listented to a woman that had gone on vacation talking about her HORROR of having to attend a Baptist church and how intolerant 'they' were ... et cetera. You should have seen her face when I revealed I was actually raised up Baptist. She clarified, of course, she didn't feel this way about ALL Baptists ...lol. I think honestly that they learned as much about me as I did about them, and I do believe there was mutual respect of each other. See, there is the issue: As long as they think there is a possibility they might convert you they will keep talking to you or visiting you. They have an agenda. You also mentioned how intolerant the Mormons were of Baptists. Witnesses are the same. And it isn’t just Baptist’s. It is every faith that isn’t theirs. This is not respectful. It is condescending to other faiths and to the people in them. You are only worth spending time with IF there is a possibility you might join them. Refuse to do that and you aren’t worthy of talking to. I dont see it as an issue really. Plenty of relationships come and go for many reasons, people grow apart, find they dont have as much in common, I dont see the commonality of 'religion' as different than any other. And I think in every religion and in every group of non religon there are people who are not tolerant and find others with a different perspective unworthy. We are all just people, regardless of label, and we all have types of individuals we want to stay around and types we grow apart from. |
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I totally agree with you. It should not be necessary. I was baptized in the United church when I was an infant. I agree that that is a promise the parents and godparents make. It certainly isn't the infant. The adults make a promise to raise the child in that faith. Interesting that they don't require the child to make a promise when they become adults. It only seems important when the person changes church. Nonsensical. I was baptized again when I was 17 into the JWs. Not doing it again. I have left/ quit going to churches/ denomonations when they start to make with the pushy baptism stuff.. One *told me* I was on the program to be baptised the following Sunday...I was like..wait a minute..I didn't agree to this, and certainly have no intention of doing so.." To be a member of their church (a denomination I had attended on different place for years), I was told I had to be baptised *in* their church.. I said "well...then I guess I don't need to be a member here....bye.." It's almost like they get credits or brownie points for the number of people they baptise...LOL Good for you. No one should push anybody to “join” anything without clear consent. Far too many groups, not just religious but political, psychological, financial as well as others use undue influence to get and maintain control over members. These groups are referred to as High Control Groups. |
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I dont see it as an issue really. Plenty of relationships come and go for many reasons, people grow apart, find they dont have as much in common, I dont see the commonality of 'religion' as different than any other. And I think in every religion and in every group of non religon there are people who are not tolerant and find others with a different perspective unworthy. We are all just people, regardless of label, and we all have types of individuals we want to stay around and types we grow apart from. I think you have the correct perspective unfortunately many of these groups really don’t care what you believe. They are looking for new members or recruits and if they can con you they will. The people who do this have no idea what they are doing. They truly believe they are doing God’s work. |
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Edited by
I_love_bluegrass
on
Wed 11/21/18 07:18 AM
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I think you have the correct perspective unfortunately many of these groups really don’t care what you believe. They are looking for new members or recruits and if they can con you they will. The people who do this have no idea what they are doing. They truly believe they are doing God’s work. As do some mainstream churches...they *to* have an agenda....why else be pushy with baptising people who have already been baptised (as an adult) elsewhere.. It is truly a "once and done" thing...not something that needs to be re-upped every so often.. Add to that the ones that want you to fill out a yearly "plegde card" of what your income is and how much you plan on giving (I can give you specific church phone numbers where I have experienced this). If your church doesn't have An ulterior motive for snagging me via baptisim or pledge card...then why is it pushed? To prove to some overseeing group that you are actively recruiting memebers? That is my point...so many are just as bad as what people say about the Witnesses.. You, at least were a former witness..and have factual basis for your claims...most don't, and only go on hear-say. But...some former Catholics, and former members certain sects of Baptists and Pentacostals *also* are happy to regale you with tales of their particular experiences.. If what someone believes brings them comfort, and meaning to their life..it's not my place to tell them they are wrong...¯\_(ツ)_/¯ As long as they leave *me* to *my* beliefs. |
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From MsLeeHM When I read that I did not think the poster was saying JWs believe in a literal “hell” but rather a symbolic one I know plenty of people who have talked to Witnesses any the topic of hell never came up. JWs do not believe in a "literal" hell. But I don't see how there could be a "symbolic" one. Do we symbolically burn in symbolic flames? Do we spend a symbolic eternity there? Perhaps you can see the problem now. The word "hell" does not appear in the Scriptures anywhere. To suggest that it does is dishonest at best. The JWs know this and talk about it. To suggest that they do not talk about it just because you and some of your friends did not get around to it would be presumptuous on your part. |
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From MsLeeHM When I read that I did not think the poster was saying JWs believe in a literal “hell” but rather a symbolic one I know plenty of people who have talked to Witnesses any the topic of hell never came up. JWs do not believe in a "literal" hell. But I don't see how there could be a "symbolic" one. Do we symbolically burn in symbolic flames? Do we spend a symbolic eternity there? Perhaps you can see the problem now. The word "hell" does not appear in the Scriptures anywhere. To suggest that it does is dishonest at best. The JWs know this and talk about it. To suggest that they do not talk about it just because you and some of your friends did not get around to it would be presumptuous on your part. Ever heard the phrase "Hell on earth" or My life was a living hell"? Neither one is literal... well unless you happen to life in California during the massive fires. But even then they don't mean the whole earth is burning up. JWs generally don't talk about a literal hell where Satan lives with a pitchfork. They don't believe in the traditional hell that most Christians believe in. Their definition is very different. It isn't a place where the wicked are right now suffering. To them dead is dead. Just a big sleep. |
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Edited by
I_love_bluegrass
on
Sun 11/25/18 07:30 AM
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From MsLeeHM When I read that I did not think the poster was saying JWs believe in a literal “hell” but rather a symbolic one I know plenty of people who have talked to Witnesses any the topic of hell never came up. JWs do not believe in a "literal" hell. But I don't see how there could be a "symbolic" one. Do we symbolically burn in symbolic flames? Do we spend a symbolic eternity there? Perhaps you can see the problem now. The word "hell" does not appear in the Scriptures anywhere. To suggest that it does is dishonest at best. The JWs know this and talk about it. To suggest that they do not talk about it just because you and some of your friends did not get around to it would be presumptuous on your part. That is true... The depictions of Hell as we've been sold it was an "invention" during the Dark/ Middle ages...to scare people into converting to Christianity..and also as a method of control...to keep people scared, and vulnerable to the Church. That was part of the problem Luther had..and why he wanted the Bible printed in German..so the average person (insofar as "avereage" people could read back then) could see for themselves what the Bible said....and not rely on hearsay or what the Priest told them.. I have always had a problem with the mainstream church's teaching on Hell.(not even going to *start* on the "predestination" stuff...) |
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From MsLeeHM When I read that I did not think the poster was saying JWs believe in a literal “hell” but rather a symbolic one I know plenty of people who have talked to Witnesses any the topic of hell never came up. JWs do not believe in a "literal" hell. But I don't see how there could be a "symbolic" one. Do we symbolically burn in symbolic flames? Do we spend a symbolic eternity there? Perhaps you can see the problem now. The word "hell" does not appear in the Scriptures anywhere. To suggest that it does is dishonest at best. The JWs know this and talk about it. To suggest that they do not talk about it just because you and some of your friends did not get around to it would be presumptuous on your part. JWs generally don't talk about a literal hell where Satan lives with a pitchfork. They don't believe in the traditional hell that most Christians believe in. Their definition is very different. It isn't a place where the wicked are right now suffering. To them dead is dead. Just a big sleep. I can see that you have confused death with "hell." There is no "hell" in the Scriptures. And we say alot of things that are not Scriptural, so it is no surprise that we use the word "hell." I can also tell by your response that you have not read the Scriptures. The Ancient Jews did not have a "hell" either. They believed that we sleep until the Resurrection. (CLV) John 11:23 Jesus is saying to her, "Your brother will be rising." 24 Martha is saying to Him, "I am aware that he will be rising in the resurrection in the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. 26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?" |
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From MsLeeHM When I read that I did not think the poster was saying JWs believe in a literal “hell” but rather a symbolic one I know plenty of people who have talked to Witnesses any the topic of hell never came up. JWs do not believe in a "literal" hell. But I don't see how there could be a "symbolic" one. Do we symbolically burn in symbolic flames? Do we spend a symbolic eternity there? Perhaps you can see the problem now. The word "hell" does not appear in the Scriptures anywhere. To suggest that it does is dishonest at best. The JWs know this and talk about it. To suggest that they do not talk about it just because you and some of your friends did not get around to it would be presumptuous on your part. That is true... The depictions of Hell as we've been sold it was an "invention" during the Dark/ Middle ages...to scare people into converting to Christianity..and also as a method of control...to keep people scared, and vulnerable to the Church. That was part of the problem Luther had..and why he wanted the Bible printed in German..so the average person (insofar as "avereage" people could read back then) could see for themselves what the Bible said....and not rely on hearsay or what the Priest told them.. I have always had a problem with the mainstream church's teaching on Hell.(not even going to *start* on the "predestination" stuff...) There is no "hell" in the Scriptures. Yes, it was a vehicle that the church used to control the populous. It seems to be working pretty well, even today. The is no Ancient term for "hell." |
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We are way off topic here so i am not going debate doctrine with you. There are many forums that will discuss JW doctrine. This isn't the place
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We are way off topic here so i am not going debate doctrine with you. There are many forums that will discuss JW doctrine. This isn't the place Actually, this is the perfect place to discuss JW doctrine. The title of this thread is "JW." I would say anything relating to the JWs is fair game. But this is not doctrine. The fact is that there is no "hell" in the Scriptures. And the JWs know it and are willing to discuss it. Perhaps you just don't have enough knowledge to discuss this topic like an adult? Perhaps, much like the Japanese, you are only interested in "saving face"? CLV Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seems upright before a man, Yet its end becomes the ways of death. |
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I find JW entertaining.
I watch their body language and how they play the 'leader' and 'follower' game. When I ask a pointed question, respectfully, I watch their reactions and pay attention to what they say and most times, they would rather change the subject or deflect answering anything definite. They seem to always lead with negativity. Trying to play on my fears of the unknown. When I don't react as they predict, they seem puzzled. Then they will offer me something that is sure to bring me inner peace, but I already have inner peace. Then, again, they seem puzzled. A few have actually asked my how I believe but when I start to tell them, they suddenly have to be going. Many forget to leave me a copy of the Watchtower because they just want to get away from me. Then, they never come back, till a new generation of witnesses are patrolling. The behavior is rather comical 
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I have had some trouble with them. Any suggestions THIS is the topic and he was referring to JWs. |
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I have had some trouble with them. Any suggestions THIS is the topic and he was referring to JWs. Right. This is the topic that you have chosen to address. So, you have set yourself up as the topic police and I didn't even get the badge number. May I remind you that it was YOU who brought up the JWs belief (or lack thereof) of a "hell." And still not explaining sufficiently how there could possibly be a "symbolic hell." It just makes no sense. So, as long as no one is trying to correct your disinformation their comment must be within the boundaries of the topic. However, if anyone exposes your lack of knowledge, all of the sudden they are "off topic"? Hmmmm. I sense at least two standards here. The facts remain the same. The JWs do NOT believe in a "hell" and they would be happy (for the most part) to discuss this with anyone who wishes. As a further note, there is no "hell" in the Scriptures. Many here (including MSLeeHM) tend to confuse What the Scriptures say about death and their own made up doctrines of a "hell." CLV Matt 22:29 Now, answering, Jesus said to them, "You are deceived, not being acquainted with the scriptures, nor yet with the power of God. |
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I have had some trouble with them. Any suggestions THIS is the topic and he was referring to JWs. Right. This is the topic that you have chosen to address. So, you have set yourself up as the topic police and I didn't even get the badge number. May I remind you that it was YOU who brought up the JWs belief (or lack thereof) of a "hell." And still not explaining sufficiently how there could possibly be a "symbolic hell." It just makes no sense. So, as long as no one is trying to correct your disinformation their comment must be within the boundaries of the topic. However, if anyone exposes your lack of knowledge, all of the sudden they are "off topic"? Hmmmm. I sense at least two standards here. The facts remain the same. The JWs do NOT believe in a "hell" and they would be happy (for the most part) to discuss this with anyone who wishes. As a further note, there is no "hell" in the Scriptures. Many here (including MSLeeHM) tend to confuse What the Scriptures say about death and their own made up doctrines of a "hell." CLV Matt 22:29 Now, answering, Jesus said to them, "You are deceived, not being acquainted with the scriptures, nor yet with the power of God. I did explain it. You chose to ignore it. That is a logical fallacy with JWs who refuse to deal with all the information. Just above someone said how JWs refuse to listen and only have their own agenda. They show up at people’s doors and ask them about their opinion but they really don’t care what the person thinks or believes. And if they are confronted with anything that goes against their beliefs they either find a scripture to do the talking for them or they leave. You have chosen to post scripture. This is harassment. What they believe isn’t the issue here. The first post clearly said he was having trouble with the Witnesses. That is the topic and you have proven that JWs don’t listen. They have been taught a lot of logical fallacies and use them all the time to avoid things they don’t want to deal with. |
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