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They have their own version of the Canon. I personally use the Hebrew-Greek-Aramaic, but the KJV alone is good enough to reveal their inconsistencies in a side by side comparison. They don't believe in the Deity of Yeshua. I show them John 14:7-10, this is where Yeshua reveals He is the Father (verse 10). Let the Holy Spirit guide You!! How does John 14:7-10 reveal just the opposite of what scripture reference I provided in the Aramaic? You have to literally deny what you are reading in those verses to achieve 2 separate people. How can the "Father Living inside my Body" saying what you hear Me say, and doing what you see Me do collate to 2 people? The WORD is the "Same" as the Father, since the WORD comes from the Father!! iam_resurrected: You claimed in your previous post, copied above, that John 14:7-10 reveals the Diety of Jesus and that in verse 10 "Yeshua reveals He is the Father." The context to John 14:10 does the exact opposite. (Context refers to surrounding words within the verse and even surrounding verses and chapters of the same Bible book.) You chose to ignore words within verse 10 that contradict your Trinitarian philosophy. Notice below the capitalized words within the quotation of John 14:10, quoted from two different Trinitarian Bibles: Good News Translation "Do you not believe, Philip, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU," Jesus said to his disciples, "DO NOT COME FROM ME. The Father, who remains in me, does his own work." New International Version "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN AUTHORITY. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." https://biblehub.com/john/14-10.htm Jesus/Yeshua told his disciples that the words were not his own. QUESTION #1 TO iam_resurrected: If Jesus/Yeshua and Jehovah the Father were one and the same why did Jesus/Yeshua inform his disciples: "The words that I have spoken to you do not come from me"? Notice another part of the context within the same chapter 14. Notice the capitalized words while you read it. Good News Translation "If you love me, you will obey my commandments. I WILL ASK THE FATHER, and HE WILL GIVE YOU another Helper, who will stay with you forever. (John 14:15-17) QUESTION #2 TO iam_resurrected: If Jesus/Yeshua was also Jehovah the Father, why would he need to "ask the Father, and HE WILL GIVE YOU another Helper"? NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) |
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iam_resurrected said: Let me show you John 10:30-31 in the Aramaic, which is the language Yeshua and His Disciples factually spoke: ܐܢܐ ܘܐܒܝ ܚܕ ܚܢܢ 30 I and Abi {My Father}, We are the Same!” iam_resurrected: I don't know where you are getting your translation of Aramaic from, but verse 30 does not have Jesus saying "We are the Same!" At the website where I found the Aramaic text, it has Jesus saying "We are One!" with reference to verse 30. The weblink is provided below. ܐܢܐ ܘܐܒܝ ܚܕ ܚܢܢ 30 I and Abi {My Father}, We are One!” https://theholyaramaicscriptures.weebly.com/joh-10.html And of course, like all Trinitarians, you chose to cherry-pick words and ignore context. Jesus was merely saying that he and the Jehovah the Father are in unity, not that they were literally the same person. This is seen by the fact that he used the exact same expression when referring to all of his disciples, within the same book of John, as follows: ܘܠܐ ܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܝ ܗܠܝܢ ܒܥܐ ܐܢܐ ܒܠܚܘܕ ܐܠܐ ܐܦ ܥܠ ܐܦܝ ܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܡܗܝܡܢܝܢ ܒܝ ܒܡܠܬܗܘܢ 20 And it isn’t only concerning these persons, I pray, but also, concerning the persons who will believe in Me through their word. ܕܟܠܗܘܢ ܢܗܘܘܢ ܚܕ ܐܝܟܢܐ ܕܐܢܬ ܐܒܝ ܒܝ ܘܐܢܐ ܒܟ ܕܐܦ ܗܢܘܢ ܒܢ ܚܕ ܢܗܘܘܢ ܕܢܗܝܡܢ ܥܠܡܐ ܕܐܢܬ ܫܕܪܬܢܝ 21 So that, ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE; as You, Abi {My Father}, are in Me, and I in You, so that they might also be one in Us, so that the alma {the world} may believe that You have sent Me. QUESTION #3 TO iam_resurrected: According to John 17:21, was Jesus asking that his dozens of disciples be ONE literal person when he said in prayer to Jehovah: "So that, ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE"? How do you answer? NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) |
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NeutralZone2,
Interesting but not really a discussion about JWS. However, in order to discuss anything a certain amount of common reference is required. In the reality of life we deal with JWS coming to our door in the effort to convert out thinking. This thread (from what I have gathered) is to understand or deal with the door to door conversion process. Personally. I think its wonderful so many feel that strongly about their faith. Its a good thing as long as nobody reasonably questions it. Problem happens when the questions are unfulfilling to our current beliefs. JWS holds no promises other religions do. Its just more of the same. If I were REALLY interested in converting my beliefs, I would seek you out. You wouldn't need to come to my door. The fact that you do, tells my you are not secure in your beliefs. The more you ring my doorbell, the more difficult it becomes for me to consider your beliefs. |
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I mentioned the contradictory nature of the Bible in an earlier post in which I related the story of the JWs who visited my Grandfather many years ago now.
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Edited by
I_love_bluegrass
on
Sun 07/14/19 08:29 AM
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If I were REALLY interested in converting my beliefs, I would seek you out. You wouldn't need to come to my door. The fact that you do, tells my you are not secure in your beliefs. The more you ring my doorbell, the more difficult it becomes for me to consider your beliefs. I have said this ^ for YEARS...regarding ALL denominations.. If your "product" was so good...*I'd* be seeking it out...wouldn't need you to hard-sell me. This baloney that "people need to hear "the good news" (about Jesus), is just that...baloney.. In most cities and towns in America, you can't drive 5 miles withou seeing a church (several, more likely).. TV and radio preachers abound. You are honestly wanting me to believe that someone who has reached the age of ...say...30...that they have NEVER heard about Jesus, the Bible...all that? Only if they had lived in a cave. Also, every denomination I have visited over the years acted like they were the only "way".. I have attened several different denominatiopns over the years...ALL wanted to baptise me.. I'm like..how many times does one need it done? You're telling me that if the Presbytarians baptised me..and i start attendig your Baptist church...you guys want to baptise me..because only *your* way is right, evidently? And then..I change and go to a Pentacostal church....and THEY want to baptise me... I finally decided I don't need to be in a building to be close to God...i can be that just fine in my back yard. Plus, HOW many times does one need to hear about Hell? (many I attended seem to harp on ths every week) Again, unless you were born in a cave and lived there all your life with no outside contact...~everyone~ has heard of Hell and know what it is... I want a sermon that *teaches* me something I do not already know. |
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Edited by
NeutralZone2
on
Mon 07/15/19 08:15 PM
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NeutralZone2, Interesting but not really a discussion about JWS. Tom4Uhere: My discussion with "iam_resurrected" is in direct response to what he posted earlier on page 3 of this thread: There, he stated: "They don't believe in the Deity of Yeshua. I show them John 14:7-10, this is where Yeshua reveals He is the Father (verse 10). " As anyone reading this thread can see, my discussion with "iam_resurrected" specifically addresses John 14:7-10, in which scripture contradicts his claim that, to quote him: "Yeshua reveals He is the Father (verse 10)." NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) |
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Edited by
NeutralZone2
on
Mon 07/15/19 08:15 PM
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NeutralZone2, If I were REALLY interested in converting my beliefs, I would seek you out. You wouldn't need to come to my door. The fact that you do, tells my you are not secure in your beliefs. The more you ring my doorbell, the more difficult it becomes for me to consider your beliefs. Tom4Uhere: It is to be noted that you object to Jehovah's Witnesses coming to your door to preach the good news of God's kingdom. The reason why they do so is because it is a direct command from Jesus Christ, their model. Just before he returned to heavenly life, he directed his First Century followers to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES, as follows: Matthew 28:19-20 New International Version (NIV) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” That is a command that all true Christians are obligated to obey. NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) |
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Edited by
NeutralZone2
on
Mon 07/15/19 08:16 PM
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NeutralZone2, The fact that you do, tells my you are not secure in your beliefs. The more you ring my doorbell, the more difficult it becomes for me to consider your beliefs. Tom4Uhere: You are mistaken. None of Jehovah's Witnesses are not secure in their beliefs. They want to share good news with their neighbors. That is why they come to the door of their neighbors, rain or shine, neglecting their own leisure time because of love for their neighbors. They preach door to door in obedience to Jesus' command at Matthew 28:19-20 that they MUST "19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations...." Recall that scripture says Jesus sent his disciples out in twos and instructed them to preached from door to door. Notice Mark 6 verses 7 and 12: GOD'S WORD® Translation Mark 6:7 and 12 "(7) He called the twelve apostles, sent them out two by two, and gave them authority over evil spirits. (12) So the apostles went and told people that they should turn to God and change the way they think and act." I should add, Tom4Uhere, that if a person makes it clear to Jehovah's Witnesses that they DO NOT want them coming to their door, the Witnesses will respect that and will inform others in the congregation to not return to the person's door. This is also part of Jesus' instructions. NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) |
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NeutralZone2, If I were REALLY interested in converting my beliefs, I would seek you out. You wouldn't need to come to my door. The fact that you do, tells my you are not secure in your beliefs. The more you ring my doorbell, the more difficult it becomes for me to consider your beliefs. Tom4Uhere: It is to be noted that you object to Jehovah's Witnesses coming to your door to preach the good news of God's kingdom. The reason why they do so is because it is a direct command from Jesus Christ, their model. Just before he returned to heavenly life, he directed his First Century followers to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES, as follows: Matthew 28:19-20 New International Version (NIV) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” That is a command that all true Christians are obligated to obey. NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) Followed Christian beliefs and YES, "witnessing" is a directive. For a long time I reached out to others trying to get them to feel the relief I felt when I was saved. Then it occurred to me that we only need saved if we think we are doing something wrong by living? See, no matter who you are or how you believe, we all do things we know we shouldn't. It is understandable that we would welcome acceptance for the things we do in which we can't seem to control. This was a driving force in me for a very long time. Until I learned how to control myself and act according to my own imperatives. When that happened, I started to lose my need for forgiveness for just being alive. It made me look at those I 'helped' find forgiveness and it left me empty, without joy. The joy I felt at the time of their acceptance. It made me look at the reasons why Billy Graham would convince me I was so sinful that I needed forgiveness and it all fell flat. I only sin when I am told that I sinned. I realized being alive is not a sin. I realized that things in life happen for no particular reason except I happened to be in that situation at that time. If I cause something to happen, I have reasons. I'm not out to sin, I just live my life as I understand how to live it. Religion gives you a plan on how to live life. Problem is, that plan doesn't align with the reality that is life. So is there something wrong with me or the plan someone else imposes on me? |
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They have their own version of the Canon. I personally use the Hebrew-Greek-Aramaic, but the KJV alone is good enough to reveal their inconsistencies in a side by side comparison. They don't believe in the Deity of Yeshua. I show them John 14:7-10, this is where Yeshua reveals He is the Father (verse 10). Let the Holy Spirit guide You!! How does John 14:7-10 reveal just the opposite of what scripture reference I provided in the Aramaic? You have to literally deny what you are reading in those verses to achieve 2 separate people. How can the "Father Living inside my Body" saying what you hear Me say, and doing what you see Me do collate to 2 people? The WORD is the "Same" as the Father, since the WORD comes from the Father!! iam_resurrected: You claimed in your previous post, copied above, that John 14:7-10 reveals the Diety of Jesus and that in verse 10 "Yeshua reveals He is the Father." The context to John 14:10 does the exact opposite. (Context refers to surrounding words within the verse and even surrounding verses and chapters of the same Bible book.) You chose to ignore words within verse 10 that contradict your Trinitarian philosophy. Notice below the capitalized words within the quotation of John 14:10, quoted from two different Trinitarian Bibles: Good News Translation "Do you not believe, Philip, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU," Jesus said to his disciples, "DO NOT COME FROM ME. The Father, who remains in me, does his own work." New International Version "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN AUTHORITY. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." https://biblehub.com/john/14-10.htm Jesus/Yeshua told his disciples that the words were not his own. QUESTION #1 TO iam_resurrected: If Jesus/Yeshua and Jehovah the Father were one and the same why did Jesus/Yeshua inform his disciples: "The words that I have spoken to you do not come from me"? Notice another part of the context within the same chapter 14. Notice the capitalized words while you read it. Good News Translation "If you love me, you will obey my commandments. I WILL ASK THE FATHER, and HE WILL GIVE YOU another Helper, who will stay with you forever. (John 14:15-17) QUESTION #2 TO iam_resurrected: If Jesus/Yeshua was also Jehovah the Father, why would he need to "ask the Father, and HE WILL GIVE YOU another Helper"? NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) The Trinity is a lie. Even the Church Fathers followed the Apostles example and baptized in the Name of Yeshua. The first idealism of the Trinity is actually found in the Bible. It's the worship of Baal, which is Satanism. These verses are from Paul: Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ^ This verse alone proves only the Father is God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him. I mention Paul because without a doubt, he was the most learned, educated of all of the Canon Writers. And we know that Paul knew the Jews only believed in "one person" being God, not three. Here is a Scribe telling Yeshua that God is only one person and Yeshua (Jesus) confirming the Scribe was correct: This is what the Scribe claims: Mark 12: 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him ^ Notice the Scribe calls the ONE GOD He in verse 32 and Him in verse 33? Let's see if Yeshua corrects the Scribe or agrees with the Scribe: Mark 12: And when Jesus saw that he answered correctly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. ^ Yeshua confirms to the Scribe that God is only "one person." We know Yeshua was not afraid to correct people if they were wrong, look what He does to the Pharisees...but to this Scribe, He does not correct him. So knowing the Jews believe God is "One Person, not three" you would think that the most educated writer, Paul, knowing how the Jews believed God = One Person would correct them in his (13) letters. But he does not, he not only confirms God is One Person, but in Acts:19, he Baptized in Yeshua's Name Only, not the trinity. I will end on this, ONLY the mistranslated English Bibles make it appear that God is 3, the Hebrew, the Aramaic, and the Greek make it clear that God is ONE PERSON!! The only trinity Doctrine found in your Bible, is the Satanic Baal Trinity Doctrine!! That leaves a very important question, why are you trying to make God into the same Doctrine as Satan? |
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Edited by
iam_resurrected
on
Tue 07/16/19 01:42 AM
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QUESTION #1 TO iam_resurrected: If Jesus/Yeshua and Jehovah the Father were one and the same why did Jesus/Yeshua inform his disciples: "The words that I have spoken to you do not come from me"?
Because Philip asked Him. And Yeshua explained. And what Yeshua explained is how Paul describes Yeshua in Colossians: ܗܘ ܕܗܘܝܘ ܕܡܘܬܐ ܕܐܠܗܐ ܕܠܐ ܡܬܚܙܐ ܘܒܘܟܪܐ ܕܟܠܗܝܢ ܒܪܝܬܐ 15 who, that is to say, is The Image of Alaha {God} who is not seen. This verse claims if we see the invisible God we see Yeshua, when we see Yeshua, we are seeing the invisible God!! What you refuse to accept, is that the Father is OMNIPRESENT. He could be in Heaven and in the flesh body as Yeshua at the same time!! He is God after all!! |
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The Trinity is a lie. The local Church near me is named 'Holy Trinity' church. Anglicans, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists...... and probably more all believe in the 'Holy Trinity'. However, the JWs don't believe in it. Although they call themselves Christians, mainstream Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, JWs do not. These arguments are rather like the one about the size of an angel and how many can dance on the head of a pin! From my point of view as someone who has no belief in such myths and fairy tales, this stuff is amusing in part and confusing in part. If I try to understand any of it, my head hurts. A bit like car enthusiasts arguing whether a Ferrari is as good as a Lambo, or not. To an ordinary man who has an ordinary car, such arguments are a total meaningless waste of time. Same situation here, I think! 
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Edited by
iam_resurrected
on
Tue 07/16/19 09:03 AM
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The Trinity is a lie. The local Church near me is named 'Holy Trinity' church. Anglicans, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists...... and probably more all believe in the 'Holy Trinity'. However, the JWs don't believe in it. Although they call themselves Christians, mainstream Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, JWs do not. These arguments are rather like the one about the size of an angel and how many can dance on the head of a pin! From my point of view as someone who has no belief in such myths and fairy tales, this stuff is amusing in part and confusing in part. If I try to understand any of it, my head hurts. A bit like car enthusiasts arguing whether a Ferrari is as good as a Lambo, or not. To an ordinary man who has an ordinary car, such arguments are a total meaningless waste of time. Same situation here, I think! Actually, these discussion are due to the mistranslated English Bible. If we only had the same Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek that were originally written, we would not even be having such a discussion. It cracks me up to see someone quoting their Bible as literal fact because they have not reasoned yet their Bible is a translation of a second translation. From the originals, Jerome in the 5th Century translated them into the Latin Vulgate. From there, we had German/English/whatever translations. But none of those were actually translated from the original source. It's the same as talking to someone who understands trigonometry with someone who barely understands addition. Until they understand their Bible is literally a second hand translation, they have no desire to seek for the truth!! |
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Tom4Uhere said: Followed Christian beliefs and YES, "witnessing" is a directive. For a long time I reached out to others trying to get them to feel the relief I felt when I was saved. Then it occurred to me that we only need saved if we think we are doing something wrong by living? Tom4Uhere: You stated in the second sentence above that people only need to be saved if they think they are doing something wrong by living. Scripture does not support that. In fact, Almighty God knows that we are sinners. New Living Translation (Romans 3:23) "For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard." We are not supposed to walk around condemning ourselves. Instead, we take in accurate knowledge of God's righteous standards from the Bible, and then we do the best we can to control our sinful tendencies, based on that knowledge. Meanwhile, we try to enjoy life--without going to extremes. We will slip from time to time, but we must pick ourselves back up and keep trying, because we cannot give up on ourselves. Eventually, it will become easier to do what is right. Of course, we will continue to make mistakes throughout life due to what's stated at Romans 3:23 above. Tom4Uhere said: See, no matter who you are or how you believe, we all do things we know we shouldn't. Exactly. That's what sinners do. But that's no reason to give up on ourselves. We have to keep trying to improve; right? NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) |
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Tom4Uhere said: It is understandable that we would welcome acceptance for the things we do in which we can't seem to control. This was a driving force in me for a very long time. Until I learned how to control myself and act according to my own imperatives. Tom4Uhere: There, you go! You stated in the last sentence above that you learned how to control yourself. Good for you! But like I said, from time to time, because of imperfection, you, like all of us humans, will slip and make mistakes. Our loving God expects us to make mistakes. That is the reason why he sent his beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to die for us and cover our sins with his shed blood--on the condition that we are truly repentant when we commit wrongs. New International Version (John 3:16) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." So long as our sins are not premeditated, they can be forgiven if we are truly sorry and we turn around and correct our behavior. NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) |
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Tom4Uhere said: It is understandable that we would welcome acceptance for the things we do in which we can't seem to control. This was a driving force in me for a very long time. Until I learned how to control myself and act according to my own imperatives. Tom4Uhere: There, you go! You stated in the last sentence above that you learned how to control yourself. Good for you! But like I said, from time to time, because of imperfection, you, like all of us humans, will slip and make mistakes. Our loving God expects us to make mistakes. That is the reason why he sent his beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to die for us and cover our sins with his shed blood--on the condition that we are truly repentant when we commit wrongs. New International Version (John 3:16) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." So long as our sins are not premeditated, they can be forgiven if we are truly sorry and we turn around and correct our behavior. NeutralZone2 ________________ ... be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath...." (James 1:19-20) |
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But like I said, from time to time, because of imperfection, you, like all of us humans, will slip and make mistakes. I'm not like most Humans. I'm pretty happy about that. When I make a mistake, I no longer beat myself up about it. I don't need religion, I need wisdom. My mistakes lead to wisdom. Granted, most humans, have a problem gaining wisdom. They repeat their mistakes, feel bad about it and look for forgiveness while not gaining wisdom to stop repeating the mistakes. The 'appeal' of being saved gets lost if you don't think living your life is a sin. If the heart is not full of sin, there is no reason to be saved. Nothing I do is a sin. Its life. I try to learn from my mistakes so I don't make them anymore. I'm grateful for my mistakes, they help me learn life. Granted, I am not a sociopath or a psychopath. I have a moral compass. |
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Very true that each version of the Bible is a translation from other languages. Discussing the actual meaning of anything in the Bible is pointless except for those very few people who are scholars in the ancient languages used in the original texts. While you're at it, don't forget to include the information found in the 'Dea Sea scrolls' which adds a lot to the words in the Bible. It seems pointless forone not versed in these languages to even begin to attempt to join this meaningless discussion.
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In the opinion of the believers, God instructed his people to go out and convert the non-believers into being his disciples. Does that mean She wants her disciples to convert the world into JWs? Of course, they would say yes that's right, but the Christian religions don't think it is a requirement to knock at the doors of strangers to present a different version from that found in Christian Bibles.
As has been said before, we all know the 'Good News' and don't need to hear someone banging on about it again. Those who are believers would like to be told something new that have not heard before. Those of us who are not believers would rather be left alone. Fortunately my house is obviously on the 'do not disturb' part of the the JW list because they always walk by and no longer ring my bell. |
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Very true that each version of the Bible is a translation from other languages. Discussing the actual meaning of anything in the Bible is pointless except for those very few people who are scholars in the ancient languages used in the original texts. While you're at it, don't forget to include the information found in the 'Dea Sea scrolls' which adds a lot to the words in the Bible. It seems pointless forone not versed in these languages to even begin to attempt to join this meaningless discussion. I do respect that your choice in life is not to believe. My choice is to believe. And the reason I do point out what I do, concerning scripture and its origins, is because I was raised by those who some have classified as scholars. So I am more than just interested. I enjoy being able see the scriptures for what they were meant to be. Everything in life is about some form of the "Truth." That is what knowing what the original languages were stating, can do for someone's Faith!! |
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