Smart choice? Or temporary solution to diminishing fossil fuels?


I find alot of people spilt in deciding whether or not E85 is a tactfull
move for America.

On one hand we are producing a cleaner fuel, and spurring aggriculture
growth.

On the other hand, the need for E85 ethanol is due to the fact we are
consuming the last of our fossil fuels. Also a spur in sudden
aggriculture growth leads to leeching more nutrients out of the land,
less acres in CRP, and eventually deforestation due to making more
crops.

Are we getting ahead of ourselves? Or are we too far behind?

Whats your thoughts?

I remember being very young and hearing that word "ethanol". Its been
around a good while!

I think E-85 could help ease the burdens on our energy needs, but there
are other ways like better and more available public transpotation
needs, solar energy,and wind. When used in combinations, they could help
ease our thirst and reliance on fossil fuels. The most abundant source
of alternative fuels, and also an enviornmental friendly source, is
Hydrogen, which is available in common H2O Water. What we need is a
government that can organize a national effort to implement, explore,
and develop these ideas. We have the technology, and the brains, just
not the leadership.

E85 is driving the price of corn up and farmers are switching fields
that they once used for other crops in order to cash in.
With the price of corn up-the price of feed for dairy and beef farmers
is up, thus the price at the grocery store is up.
E85 is a temporary solution.

I think no matter the alternative, prices somehwere will go up. Sorta
the nature of the beast...

We do have viable alternatives. And, it scares the hell out of
government.

Alternatives have been proved to work. Have been studied for years...

As long as government gets it's way, it won't happen in my lifetime, or
maybe my kids'

Only small areas, and some businesses are doing it. And, you can bet
they are being watched very closely.

If you take to much hydrogen from the water what will our oceans look
like in 500 years.

Everything has a cost beyond what you pay for it in gold.

And the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. Emotional
and Adventure have it right. Why are we possessed of such magnificent
hindsight?
Radical innovation has always been resisted.
The paths of correct solutions are not always the ones that are
followed.

The hydrogen byproduct is water adven!! It converts itself back..

GM has already been working on it.
This web site explains the whole function of the engine, from intake to
exhaust....
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/edu_k-12/popups/fc_energy/fuelcell_interactive.html

Yes you are right fanta it converts itself back.

by burning hydrogen with oxygen you get water.

But as you have created energy from a chemical reaction some of the
original compounds used change state to make the process happen.

What you get back is changed.

Just ask anyone that has handled a hydrogen fuel cell. The exaust
(water vapor) is no longer drinkable water.

the best water to use for the process of creating the hydrogen in the
first place is seawater. Once you have removed the hydrogen from the
sea water what becomes of the salt content.

again I will ask my original question. What would become of our oceans
in 500 or so years? There is a cost for everything.

e 85

may lesson the burden on oil dependancy

but will increase the burden on the food supply

just a thought

but hey what do i know

Im not sure of all the complications adven, but seems good. Ill have to
check, at least we dont have to worry over the arabs holding us hostage
for awhile. I think I saw a thing where they said it was an unpolluted
water. Maybe they could fiqure a way to exchange the water when you
refuel, and use it for irragation or steam generated electric turbines.
????

well if you pull the hydrogen out of the water

that will leave you with oxigen

the destruction of vegitation (which creates oxiggen)
is leading to higher greenhouse gas in the atmosphere

and the global warming is melting the ice at the poles
raising the level of the ocean
which will flod many coastal areas (well all of them actually)

so we better get this hydrogen idea going quickly

just a thought

but hey what do i know

Better than what we got now.

In 500 years we will have figured out something new to exploit and then
we can clean up whatever damage we have done with what we are exploiting
now.

It is not a matter of choice cause we need the energy and there ain't no
doubt the days of oil are numbered. perhaps even in our lifetime.

Question though. What are we going to build the conversion factories
from?

Anything you mine, drill, or suck outa the earth will run out. Finite
resources ya know. When the coppers gone what will we use for electric
circuits? When the rare earths are used up then what. Recycle the old
oil dependent factories? Tear down our civilizations metallic monuments
and rebuild.

Perhaps we should explore biological solutions. Use plant DNA to grow
trees into houses and factories. Things like that.

Its something. Im just a peon, but I know doing nothing does nothing.
There are many smart people in this country who could at least be
exploring these questions, and I bet the price tag would be less than
the war in Iraq. If we put the same national effort into alternative
fuel sources, as we did during the race to the moon I bet we could come
up with a solution in 5 yrs or less..

I don't know if you have ever heard of this but...

We could have built rougly 2.5 O'Neil type space colonies for the price
of the war in Iraq.

Plenty of farms to make that ethanol from.

Unfortunately the solution we really need is not even close to being on
the table. It’s not considered an option for several reasons. One is
economics, and the other is that most people simply don't believe that
it's doable.

What the human race really needs to do is start depending more on back
yard gardens and keeping livestock and being less dependent on grocery
stores and mega-farms.

People will argue against this on two levels. One is the obvious fact
that people in cities won’t be able to do that. Well, of course they
won’t. But if everyone who lives in rural areas grew gardens in their
backyards they would actually have plenty of surplus to send into the
cities.

The other argument is simply that people won’t do it. Well, people
could be encouraged to do it if some of the money that is currently
going into supporting mega-farms would be offered to people who grew a
certain about of produce in their backyards.

How would this help? Well, if the vast majority of people would
actually participate in it, it would help a lot.

Society would become less dependent on mega-farms. Everything could be
done organically instead of chemically. People could easily keep
chickens, rabbits, or other animals for manure instead of depending on
chemical fertilizers. This is the way that homesteaders used to live.
It’s a time-tested proven system.

Also, pesticides could be reduced to almost no use at all. Why? Because
people growing small gardens would grow many different kinds of crops.
That is much less likely to create a pesticide problem than the large
mono-crop fields of mega-farms.

Finally, the trucking industry would not be required to move the produce
to market. People could just take their goods to local markets in small
trucks, or even in trailers behind cars. Each person would not need to
be dealing with all that much food.

What about weather? What happens in the winter? Enough food could
easily be grown in the summer to last through the winter.

How would it be preserved? By small-business canneries. This would
create massive opportunities for small businesses to spring up in all
the local communities. Canneries that take in the summer surplus foods
from the local “gardener-farmers’ and can it for winter use.

Who would run the canneries? All the truckers that are no longer
hauling food long-distance! (ha ha)

It’s a doable thing.

Will it ever happen?

Probably not. Politicians aren’t even thinking along the lines of going
‘back-to-nature’. It’s all about the economics of mega-farms and
trucking industries, etc, etc, etc.

It’s all about economics.

It’s all about economics.

It’s all about economics.

It’s all about economics.

It’s all about economics.

And it's about a major fear of proposing anything so absurdly differnet
from what we’re used to.

But if we are going to save the human race we really need to think in
terms of some major restructuring of our way of life.

I have little faith that we will go there. Instead we’ll just beat the
energy-draining economic-based-beast until it dies out from under us,
and then we’ll all go down the tubes crying for mercy.

Sorry for the dismal picture. But it’s just the way I see things. We
simply aren’t even considering the best options that we have available.
STOP USING SO MUCH ENERGY! And get back to basics and closer to
nature’s way.

That’s my answer as unpopular as it may be.

Abra you have hit the nail right on the head.

I do have faith it is doable.

We will have no choice.

The oil is gone we are pumping the dregs. It might be 50 years but it
is gone.

Mankind will be forced back to basics by its own greed.

An unfortunate truth is that those that have the money now will
initially have the power to take from those of us that are prepared when
they realize the truth.

As I believe Fanta was the one ot mention, (maybe a differentthread but
plausibe hre as well) We need to consider using sunlight as well. If
you stop and think about it, you can use sunlight to do EVERYTHING that
we are using fossil fuels for now.
A good suggestio would be to se the fssil fuels to produce solar plants
and such (dont know the proper term right now). Th solar plants would
become self running as they charge themselves up dirung the day andrun
off hte reserve at night.

Solar energy creates heat,
it can be used to charge electrical appartises (SP?) so that you have
elctricity,
it can and is used to run automobiles now,

just think how much more eficient solar energy is....

Hey everyone, I am loving everyone's opinions.

I think for the most part we are on the same page...what we have now
isn't up to par and we need to improve.

ABRA> I about posted the same thing...to live like the Amish. Horse's
were historicly our transportation, our plows, tractors, and etc.
Engery crisis? Pffft! Give Ed more oats!

However, I often read in Popular Mechanics magazine about cars of the
"future". Such as electric cars, solar powered vehicles, engines
powered by recycled oils...and available to take home by the year 2000!

Well...where are they? Where ever they are they are not being mass
marketed to the public like they should.

At this point in time we all should have an alternately fueled vehicle
that is available & affordable!