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| Topic: Does time truly exist? | |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 12/31/08 01:06 PM
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Billy said:
If god is outside time. Then to god all events that will ever happen have already happened, and he can see them all at once. Not necessarily. Events are like stories. They have a beginning, a middle and an end. But the events as seen from outside of time come in two categories, those imagined and possible (probabilities) and those chosen or experienced and observed. Chosen (Experienced and observed) events are like three dimensional holographic movies. (And they can have a multiple of different outcomes.) Lets say you are God and all events in this space-time continuum are stored on a giant computer mind. You may want to watch some of these events or stories just as people watch their DVD's. You have only to locate where the event is stored. It has an address. The addresses of events are space-time coordinates within whatever matrix or continuum you are looking. That is how you locate the event. So you, are like a time traveler. You find the event and you watch it or you enter it as a player or an observer. You can even influence the outcome and cause a new outcome. This new outcome will then be recorded within the event as an alternate outcome for passive observers. While this example may seem like science fiction, if you are going to talk about God, then anything goes and anything is possible. With a holographic model of reality anything is possible. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 12/31/08 01:23 PM
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Here is an interesting theory, I just found this:
by Nicholas Joseph Albertini " The definition of matter is that it has mass and takes up space. If our concept of matter is divided infinitely, and so it would seem to be, within our present concept of the physical universe, then, in its essence, it cannot, possibly, match this description. The essence of the universe lies far beyond such simplistic ideologies as are expressed in our fragmented, and extremely counterintuitive, modern theory base, widely known as the Standard Model. As we have witnessed the proliferation of so much logically corrupt thinking throughout the development of modern physics, a more complex, and physically driven, interpretation of the existing data must be derived. We must defragment the realm of physics, and attain a more incorporative concept of the universe. Quantum mechanics has the habit of describing most things as waves. However, it must be remembered that this is only a mathematical description of real particles that happen to possess a unique type of wave/particle duality. From the earliest Greek philosophy, regarding the essence of matter, the world has been seen as particles: atoms. The idea of atoms was originally conceived by Democritus of Abdera in 430 BC. Atoms were viewed as being made of solid matter. The indestructible, hard, geometrically solid spheres of matter had mass and took up an amount of space in an infinite void. This earliest of quantum physics does well in describing the very essence of matter. Much later, during the late 19th, and early 20th, centuries, mostly thanks to the work of J.J. Thomson and Ernest Rutherford, humanity discovered that atoms were not solid, and, therefore, not the quantum of matter. It, then, was shown that atoms were composed of smaller, so called "elementary", particles. These particles were the proton, neutron (which are baryonic hadrons) and the electron (a lepton). Then, in 1978, in the Tavatron, the mile long particle accelerator at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Bativa IL, it was conclusively shown, with the discovery of a hadron with a fifth type of quark, the bottom quark, that hadrons consist of smaller particles of matter: that is, quarks. The discovery of the charmed quark in ‘74 was proof enough of the quark model for most who were still skeptical, but the fifth convinced all of those within the reach of reason. There, probably, are many other types of material, subatomic particles, and more quarks, to be found. I am convinced that leptons, like the electron, are of a separate class of non-hadronic, that is, unbound, single quarks. At this point in particle accelerator technology, though, quarks are the smallest particles, which are detectable in any sense. It is unlikely, however, for many reasons, that the quark is the quantum of matter. The greatest reason being the non-uniform range of masses displayed by different flavored quarks. We must, then, ask: what are the dynamics of the quantum of matter? Because, by the very definition of matter, this quantum must exist." For the rest: http://www.wbabin.net/physics/albertini.htm |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Wed 12/31/08 01:26 PM
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Billy said: If god is outside time. Then to god all events that will ever happen have already happened, and he can see them all at once. Not necessarily. Events are like stories. They have a beginning, a middle and an end. But the events as seen from outside of time come in two categories, those imagined and possible (probabilities) and those chosen or experienced and observed. Chosen (Experienced and observed) events are like three dimensional holographic movies. (And they can have a multiple of different outcomes.) Lets say you are God and all events in this space-time continuum are stored on a giant computer mind. You may want to watch some of these events or stories just as people watch their DVD's. You have only to locate where the event is stored. It has an address. The addresses of events are space-time coordinates within whatever matrix or continuum you are looking. That is how you locate the event. So you, are like a time traveler. You find the event and you watch it or you enter it as a player or an observer. You can even influence the outcome and cause a new outcome. This new outcome will then be recorded within the event as an alternate outcome for passive observers. While this example may seem like science fiction, if you are going to talk about God, then anything goes and anything is possible. With a holographic model of reality anything is possible. Mathematics of spacetime show that if time stops for an observer all events would be at unity or at a single time. To be outside time means that time does not move for you . . . There is no doubt that no 3d time trapped person can wrap there mind around what that would be like, but that doesn't change the fact that is what it would be. I doubt any consciousness could exist outside time after all consciousness requires cause and effect. (can you say self contradictory?) And this is a large reason why I do not believe any kind of consciousness had anything to do with the creation of the universe. Here is an interesting theory, I just found this: by Nicholas Joseph Albertini " The definition of matter is that it has mass and takes up space. If our concept of matter is divided infinitely, and so it would seem to be, within our present concept of the physical universe, then, in its essence, it cannot, possibly, match this description. The essence of the universe lies far beyond such simplistic ideologies as are expressed in our fragmented, and extremely counterintuitive, modern theory base, widely known as the Standard Model. As we have witnessed the proliferation of so much logically corrupt thinking throughout the development of modern physics, a more complex, and physically driven, interpretation of the existing data must be derived. We must defragment the realm of physics, and attain a more incorporative concept of the universe. Quantum mechanics has the habit of describing most things as waves. However, it must be remembered that this is only a mathematical description of real particles that happen to possess a unique type of wave/particle duality. From the earliest Greek philosophy, regarding the essence of matter, the world has been seen as particles: atoms. The idea of atoms was originally conceived by Democritus of Abdera in 430 BC. Atoms were viewed as being made of solid matter. The indestructible, hard, geometrically solid spheres of matter had mass and took up an amount of space in an infinite void. This earliest of quantum physics does well in describing the very essence of matter. Much later, during the late 19th, and early 20th, centuries, mostly thanks to the work of J.J. Thomson and Ernest Rutherford, humanity discovered that atoms were not solid, and, therefore, not the quantum of matter. It, then, was shown that atoms were composed of smaller, so called "elementary", particles. These particles were the proton, neutron (which are baryonic hadrons) and the electron (a lepton). Then, in 1978, in the Tavatron, the mile long particle accelerator at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Bativa IL, it was conclusively shown, with the discovery of a hadron with a fifth type of quark, the bottom quark, that hadrons consist of smaller particles of matter: that is, quarks. The discovery of the charmed quark in ‘74 was proof enough of the quark model for most who were still skeptical, but the fifth convinced all of those within the reach of reason. There, probably, are many other types of material, subatomic particles, and more quarks, to be found. I am convinced that leptons, like the electron, are of a separate class of non-hadronic, that is, unbound, single quarks. At this point in particle accelerator technology, though, quarks are the smallest particles, which are detectable in any sense. It is unlikely, however, for many reasons, that the quark is the quantum of matter. The greatest reason being the non-uniform range of masses displayed by different flavored quarks. We must, then, ask: what are the dynamics of the quantum of matter? Because, by the very definition of matter, this quantum must exist." For the rest: http://www.wbabin.net/physics/albertini.htm |
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Mathematics of spacetime show that if time stops for an observer all events would be at unity or at a single time. To be outside time means that time does not move for you . . . This is only in relation to you, the observer. I have personally experienced a state of awareness that has been called "time stalling" where all events surrounding my personal physical existence seemed to freeze in time. In actuality I realized they were just moving very very slowly in comparison to my observation point...which was outside of the current space-time. The process of my thoughts equaled about ten or twenty minutes in a fraction of a second in real time. This is real to me because I have done this twice. There is no doubt that no 3d time trapped person can wrap there mind around what that would be like, but that doesn't change the fact that is what it would be. I doubt any consciousness could exist outside time after all consciousness requires cause and effect. (can you say self contradictory?) Why do you think that consciousness requires cause and effect? It is my belief that each individual spiritual conscious entity lives within its own field and creates its own space-time. But when that spiritual entity enters a holographic reality, it has to operate within the space-time set up for that reality. And this is a large reason why I do not believe any kind of consciousness had anything to do with the creation of the universe. I cannot imagine a universe being created by nothing, or by accident. That is by far, a greater stretch for me. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 12/31/08 01:46 PM
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Billy said: If god is outside time. Then to god all events that will ever happen have already happened, and he can see them all at once. Not necessarily. Events are like stories. They have a beginning, a middle and an end. But the events as seen from outside of time come in two categories, those imagined and possible (probabilities) and those chosen or experienced and observed. Chosen (Experienced and observed) events are like three dimensional holographic movies. (And they can have a multiple of different outcomes.) Lets say you are God and all events in this space-time continuum are stored on a giant computer mind. You may want to watch some of these events or stories just as people watch their DVD's. You have only to locate where the event is stored. It has an address. The addresses of events are space-time coordinates within whatever matrix or continuum you are looking. That is how you locate the event. So you, are like a time traveler. You find the event and you watch it or you enter it as a player or an observer. You can even influence the outcome and cause a new outcome. This new outcome will then be recorded within the event as an alternate outcome for passive observers. While this example may seem like science fiction, if you are going to talk about God, then anything goes and anything is possible. With a holographic model of reality anything is possible. Mathematics of spacetime show that if time stops for an observer all events would be at unity or at a single time. To be outside time means that time does not move for you . . . There is no doubt that no 3d time trapped person can wrap there mind around what that would be like, but that doesn't change the fact that is what it would be. I doubt any consciousness could exist outside time after all consciousness requires cause and effect. (can you say self contradictory?) And this is a large reason why I do not believe any kind of consciousness had anything to do with the creation of the universe. Here is an interesting theory, I just found this: by Nicholas Joseph Albertini " The definition of matter is that it has mass and takes up space. If our concept of matter is divided infinitely, and so it would seem to be, within our present concept of the physical universe, then, in its essence, it cannot, possibly, match this description. The essence of the universe lies far beyond such simplistic ideologies as are expressed in our fragmented, and extremely counterintuitive, modern theory base, widely known as the Standard Model. As we have witnessed the proliferation of so much logically corrupt thinking throughout the development of modern physics, a more complex, and physically driven, interpretation of the existing data must be derived. We must defragment the realm of physics, and attain a more incorporative concept of the universe. Quantum mechanics has the habit of describing most things as waves. However, it must be remembered that this is only a mathematical description of real particles that happen to possess a unique type of wave/particle duality. From the earliest Greek philosophy, regarding the essence of matter, the world has been seen as particles: atoms. The idea of atoms was originally conceived by Democritus of Abdera in 430 BC. Atoms were viewed as being made of solid matter. The indestructible, hard, geometrically solid spheres of matter had mass and took up an amount of space in an infinite void. This earliest of quantum physics does well in describing the very essence of matter. Much later, during the late 19th, and early 20th, centuries, mostly thanks to the work of J.J. Thomson and Ernest Rutherford, humanity discovered that atoms were not solid, and, therefore, not the quantum of matter. It, then, was shown that atoms were composed of smaller, so called "elementary", particles. These particles were the proton, neutron (which are baryonic hadrons) and the electron (a lepton). Then, in 1978, in the Tavatron, the mile long particle accelerator at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Bativa IL, it was conclusively shown, with the discovery of a hadron with a fifth type of quark, the bottom quark, that hadrons consist of smaller particles of matter: that is, quarks. The discovery of the charmed quark in ‘74 was proof enough of the quark model for most who were still skeptical, but the fifth convinced all of those within the reach of reason. There, probably, are many other types of material, subatomic particles, and more quarks, to be found. I am convinced that leptons, like the electron, are of a separate class of non-hadronic, that is, unbound, single quarks. At this point in particle accelerator technology, though, quarks are the smallest particles, which are detectable in any sense. It is unlikely, however, for many reasons, that the quark is the quantum of matter. The greatest reason being the non-uniform range of masses displayed by different flavored quarks. We must, then, ask: what are the dynamics of the quantum of matter? Because, by the very definition of matter, this quantum must exist." For the rest: http://www.wbabin.net/physics/albertini.htm I don't understand why you then, still insist that matter is solid when the true quantum of matter has not been found. To say that "it must exist" is not proof that it exists. ******************************************* "At this point in particle accelerator technology, though, quarks are the smallest particles, which are detectable in any sense. It is unlikely, however, for many reasons, that the quark is the quantum of matter. The greatest reason being the non-uniform range of masses displayed by different flavored quarks. We must, then, ask: what are the dynamics of the quantum of matter? Because, by the very definition of matter, this quantum must exist." ************************************* My question is simply if something solid exists, then why hasn't it been found? That is what I mean when I say that nothing is "solid." |
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As for being "outside of time" you have to imagine that the space-time continuum which we (operating as physical persons) are living in may not be the one and only space-time continuum in existence.
In fact, I think that each person is surrounded by a field (human energy field) and that field has its own space-time continuum where the spiritual being truly resides. The reason I think this is because of my own two experiences of being "frozen in time." While being frozen in time, everything in this reality was frozen and seemed to be at a dead stop, including my physical body and anything that happened to be flying through the air. Only my thoughts proceeded at what seemed to be a normal rate. |
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I doubt I ever make valid points. I'm just trying to bring a different viewpoint to the conversation. Trying to help people think about things. try harder |
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Does time as we know it truly exist? Time does not exist. It is our perception of time, as the periods that lead one event to another, that gives time meaning. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 12/31/08 04:54 PM
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I am wondering if the brain has the ability to process thoughts at such an accelerated rate that it would seem that time as we know it has slowed to a virtual stop.
Perhaps that might explain my experience of time stalling. I read that as we get older time seems to pass faster and faster. Perhaps it is because our brains are simply slowing down or not processing information and perceptions as quickly as it used to. There are exercises you can do to improve your range of perception, awareness, and thinking I have heard. It would be very cool if you could train your brain to speed up at will while processing input, and perhaps it would seem to be slowing down the passage of time. Any thoughts on that? |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Fri 01/02/09 08:15 AM
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I am wondering if the brain has the ability to process thoughts at such an accelerated rate that it would seem that time as we know it has slowed to a virtual stop. Perhaps that might explain my experience of time stalling. I read that as we get older time seems to pass faster and faster. Perhaps it is because our brains are simply slowing down or not processing information and perceptions as quickly as it used to. There are exercises you can do to improve your range of perception, awareness, and thinking I have heard. It would be very cool if you could train your brain to speed up at will while processing input, and perhaps it would seem to be slowing down the passage of time. Any thoughts on that? However if the brain has some kind of mechanic to be able to processes faster and make time seem to slow down I would gather there is a limit at which it would peak. I do believe there is such a mechanic, it has been reported often that when a dangerous situation forces your system to respond with the emergency chemical cocktail of endorphins and adrenaline perception slows down. Personally I think its a matter of dropping unneeded processing, and forces all senses and resources to battle stations so to speak. Why do you think that consciousness requires cause and effect? What is consciousness but the ability to know thyself. How can you know anything in a state of suspended animation. No time means no movement, means no change. No change no knowing thyself. There cannot be an assessment of ones own properties without time so allow first that assessment then the connection that this is me. Consciousness requires time this should be self evident. It is my belief that each individual spiritual conscious entity lives within its own field and creates its own space-time. But when that spiritual entity enters a holographic reality, it has to operate within the space-time set up for that reality. The problem here is infinite regress. If there is a time outside our time that god works his magic from, then when did that time start? Or was it always there . . . if it was always there then why wasn't our universe in some form or another always here? The big bang no more had to be the start of all time everywhere (only locally) then god needs to have a start. The big bang could just be a single universe within a never ending foam of bubble universes. If god can be eternal then so can the universe generating mechanism. If we have a hierarchy of spacetime bubbles where does it end? Why should it? Given our current knowledge you either have: 1)infinite regress gods 2)infinite regress hierarchy of spacetimes 3)eternal spacetime generating mechanism (parallel spacetime no hierarchy) 4)eternal god I cannot imagine a universe being created by nothing, or by accident. That is by far, a greater stretch for me. I just explained why this thought processes is not a valid dicotomy against god.
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 01/02/09 08:48 AM
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However if the brain has some kind of mechanic to be able to processes faster and make time seem to slow down I would gather there is a limit at which it would peak. I do believe there is such a mechanic, it has been reported often that when a dangerous situation forces your system to respond with the emergency chemical cocktail of endorphins and adrenaline perception slows down. Actually perception speeds up in relation to the physical movement and the actual event. All movement appears to slow down and can actually come to what appears to be a complete stop, while the thought and reasoning process continues at what seems to be a "normal" rate. To the experiencer (observer), time (movement) has stalled but their own thought process continues "normally." This is why I think that time in this physical reality that is measured in relation to movement is a different kind of time that exists with the entity (person or observer) within their human energy field and that each somewhat conscious entity (the person) has its own space-time. If this is true, then an entity (spirit or soul individual) can indeed have consciousness outside of this space-time environment. Note: In this state of awareness time cannot be measured by the movement of objects through space. "Time" is only perceived in relation to the actual thoughts. It has been said that thoughts are things. Imagine everything around you and your body freezes in time. You are either frozen or moving so slow you cannot see any movement. You seem to be trapped in time and trapped inside of an immovable object that is your body. The only thing normal is the moving of your thoughts. That is what it is like to experience time stalling. |
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I mentioned both speeding up and slowing down . . .
So you think becuase you perceive something differently, then it was changing (ie time) not your perception of it? |
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Edited by
quiet_2008
on
Fri 01/02/09 11:02 AM
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a lot of weird ideas about what time is
as I said before it's all in this e=mc2 time is an integral part of the universe as much as is mass and energy. The quality and aspect of time is dependent on mass and energy. beginning and ending of mass makes no sense. neither does beginning and ending of time. the linear progression of time is purely a human perception |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Fri 01/02/09 11:08 AM
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a lot of weird ideas about what time is as I said before it's all in this e=mc2 time is an integral part of the universe as much as is mass and energy. The quality and aspect of time is dependent on mass and energy. beginning and ending of mass makes no sense. neither does beginning and ending of time. the linear progression of time is purely a human perception |
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My time is always at a moderate rate
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 01/02/09 11:12 AM
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I mentioned both speeding up and slowing down . . . So you think becuase you perceive something differently, then it was changing (ie time) not your perception of it? No I don't think it changed this space-time as we know and experience it ~for everyone else,~ only for me~ from my observation point, from my perception this space-time came to almost a halt, yet my personal space-time, which were my thoughts, seemed to proceed as normal. All else (all movement) was frozen to almost a halt. So while my perception of my personal existence and my personal thought process remained the same, the world around me was frozen to a halt, including my body. I felt trapped in time. I had only my thoughts. |
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time did some pretty weird sh!t when I was on acid
but I think it was just me |
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I mentioned both speeding up and slowing down . . . So you think becuase you perceive something differently, then it was changing (ie time) not your perception of it? No I don't think it changed this space-time as we know and experience it ~for everyone else,~ only for me~ from my observation point, from my perception this space-time came to almost a halt, yet my personal space-time, which were my thoughts, seemed to proceed as normal. All else (all movement) was frozen to almost a halt. |
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I mentioned both speeding up and slowing down . . . So you think becuase you perceive something differently, then it was changing (ie time) not your perception of it? No I don't think it changed this space-time as we know and experience it ~for everyone else,~ only for me~ from my observation point, from my perception this space-time came to almost a halt, yet my personal space-time, which were my thoughts, seemed to proceed as normal. All else (all movement) was frozen to almost a halt. added to post above: So while my perception of my personal existence and my personal thought process remained the same, the world around me was frozen to a halt, including my body. I felt trapped in time. I had only my thoughts. It would be cool if I could do that at will. It would be great for playing a game of chess. I could take all the time I needed to figure out my next move. |
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Edited by
quiet_2008
on
Fri 01/02/09 11:20 AM
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I mentioned both speeding up and slowing down . . . So you think becuase you perceive something differently, then it was changing (ie time) not your perception of it? No I don't think it changed this space-time as we know and experience it ~for everyone else,~ only for me~ from my observation point, from my perception this space-time came to almost a halt, yet my personal space-time, which were my thoughts, seemed to proceed as normal. All else (all movement) was frozen to almost a halt. the human eye processes vision as a series of still images at 30 frames a second. The persistence of vision connects those still frames into a perception of motion in times of extreme stress and some cases of trancendental trances that 30 frames per second increases to as much as 80 frames per second. That is where the perception of time slowing or even standing still comes from |
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