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Topic: Israel Is Losing This War
madisonman's photo
Mon 01/12/09 04:11 PM
NEARLY SEVENTY YEARS ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.

Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.

This is the description that would now appear in the history books - if the Germans had won the war.

Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as "hostages" and exploit the women and children as "human shields", they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.

IN THIS WAR, as in any modern war, propaganda plays a major role. The disparity between the forces, between the Israeli army - with its airplanes, gunships, drones, warships, artillery and tanks - and the few thousand lightly armed Hamas fighters, is one to a thousand, perhaps one to a million. In the political arena the gap between them is even wider. But in the propaganda war, the gap is almost infinite.

Almost all the Western media initially repeated the official Israeli propaganda line. They almost entirely ignored the Palestinian side of the story, not to mention the daily demonstrations of the Israeli peace camp. The rationale of the Israeli government ("The state must defend its citizens against the Qassam rockets") has been accepted as the whole truth. The view from the other side, that the Qassams are a retaliation for the siege that starves the one and a half million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, was not mentioned at all.

Only when the horrible scenes from Gaza started to appear on Western TV screens, did world public opinion gradually begin to change.

True, Western and Israeli TV channels showed only a tiny fraction of the dreadful events that appear 24 hours every day on Aljazeera's Arabic channel, but one picture of a dead baby in the arms of its terrified father is more powerful than a thousand elegantly constructed sentences from the Israeli army spokesman. And that is what is decisive, in the end.

War - every war - is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one's country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.

The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.

An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.

Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army "revealed" that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.

Later the official liar claimed that "our soldiers were shot at from inside the school". Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.

But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that "they shot from inside the school", and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.

So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a "symbol of Hamas rule". Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the "most moral army in the world".

THE TRUTH is that the atrocities are a direct result of the war plan. This reflects the personality of Ehud Barak - a man whose way of thinking and actions are clear evidence of what is called "moral insanity", a sociopathic disorder.

The real aim (apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader which has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different.

The Hamas movement won the majority of the votes in the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. It won because the Palestinians had come to the conclusion that Fatah's peaceful approach had gained precisely nothing from Israel - neither a freeze of the settlements, nor release of the prisoners, nor any significant steps toward ending the occupation and creating the Palestinian state. Hamas is deeply rooted in the population - not only as a resistance movement fighting the foreign occupier, like the Irgun and the Stern Group in the past - but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational and medical services.

From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not "hide behind the population", the population views them as their only defenders.

Therefore, the whole operation is based on erroneous assumptions. Turning life into living hell does not cause the population to rise up against Hamas, but on the contrary, it unites behind Hamas and reinforces its determination not to surrender. The population of Leningrad did not rise up against Stalin, any more than the Londoners rose up against Churchill.

He who gives the order for such a war with such methods in a densely populated area knows that it will cause dreadful slaughter of civilians. Apparently that did not touch him. Or he believed that "they will change their ways" and "it will sear their consciousness", so that in future they will not dare to resist Israel.

A top priority for the planners was the need to minimize casualties among the soldiers, knowing that the mood of a large part of the pro-war public would change if reports of such casualties came in. That is what happened in Lebanon Wars I and II.

This consideration played an especially important role because the entire war is a part of the election campaign. Ehud Barak, who gained in the polls in the first days of the war, knew that his ratings would collapse if pictures of dead soldiers filled the TV screens.

Therefore, a new doctrine was applied: to avoid losses among our soldiers by the total destruction of everything in their path. The planners were not only ready to kill 80 Palestinians to save one Israeli soldier, as has happened, but also 800. The avoidance of casualties on our side is the overriding commandment, which is causing record numbers of civilian casualties on the other side.

That means the conscious choice of an especially cruel kind of warfare - and that has been its Achilles heel.

A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: "Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader") cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out: "Mama! Mama!"

The planners thought that they could stop the world from seeing these images by forcibly preventing press coverage. The Israeli journalists, to their shame, agreed to be satisfied with the reports and photos provided by the Army Spokesman, as if they were authentic news, while they themselves remained miles away from the events. Foreign journalists were not allowed in either, until they protested and were taken for quick tours in selected and supervised groups. But in a modern war, such a sterile manufactured view cannot completely exclude all others - the cameras are inside the strip, in the middle of the hell, and cannot be controlled. Aljazeera broadcasts the pictures around the clock and reaches every home.

THE BATTLE for the TV screen is one of the decisive battles of the war.

Hundreds of millions of Arabs from Mauritania to Iraq, more than a billion Muslims from Nigeria to Indonesia see the pictures and are horrified. This has a strong impact on the war. Many of the viewers see the rulers of Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority as collaborators with Israel in carrying out these atrocities against their Palestinian brothers.

The security services of the Arab regimes are registering a dangerous ferment among the peoples. Hosny Mubarak, the most exposed Arab leader because of his closing of the Rafah crossing in the face of terrified refugees, started to pressure the decision-makers in Washington, who until that time had blocked all calls for a cease-fire. These began to understand the menace to vital American interests in the Arab world and suddenly changed their attitude - causing consternation among the complacent Israeli diplomats.

People with moral insanity cannot really understand the motives of normal people and must guess their reactions. "How many divisions has the Pope?" Stalin sneered. "How many divisions have people of conscience?" Ehud Barak may well be asking.

As it turns out, they do have some. Not numerous. Not very quick to react. Not very strong and organized. But at a certain moment, when the atrocities overflow and masses of protesters come together, that can decide a war.

THE FAILURE to grasp the nature of Hamas has caused a failure to grasp the predictable results. Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it.

Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.

If the war ends with Hamas still standing, bloodied but unvanquished, in face of the mighty Israeli military machine, it will look like a fantastic victory, a victory of mind over matter.

What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet.

In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the State of Israel.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/12-4

s1owhand's photo
Mon 01/12/09 04:36 PM


Hamas Defeats Israel

laugh

cutelildevilsmom's photo
Mon 01/12/09 04:38 PM



Hamas Defeats Israel

laugh

laugh

Giocamo's photo
Mon 01/12/09 05:01 PM



Hamas Defeats Israel

laugh


laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

karmafury's photo
Mon 01/12/09 05:53 PM
Edited by karmafury on Mon 01/12/09 05:57 PM
IDF reservist refuses to fight in Gaza over civilian deaths

An Israel Defense Forces reserves soldier, taking part in Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip which entered its 17th day on Monday, has refused to enter the Hamas-ruled territory along with his unit in protest of the killing of Palestinian civilians.

On Monday it emerged that the soldier has been jailed for 14 days in a military facility. He was the first soldier to be tried for refusing orders since the beginning of the operation.

Attorney Michael Sfard, the legal adviser of Omets ? a non profit organization for judicial and social justice ? said that since the beginning of the Israeli offensive on December 27, eight reservists have sought his advice upon being drafted in the emergency reserves call-up.

Of the eight reservists, three have refused to enter the Strip so far. Two of them arrived at agreements with their commanders exempting them from fighting with their units.



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054861.html


Seems that this has happened before. Not the first time that Israelis refuse service in Gaza.

nogames39's photo
Mon 01/12/09 06:47 PM
No, they are (Israelis) winning the battle. But, they will undoubtedly, lose the war.


s1owhand's photo
Mon 01/12/09 08:38 PM
The Israelis are prevailing in the battle and in the war. They have as much right to the land as the Palestinians and nowhere else to go. They have defended themselves in the face of withering prejudice and they have done it despite facing an enemy who shows a complete lack of regard for any accepted standard of ethical behavior.

In the age of communication - there will be no hiding place for hatred, fanaticism, antisemitism, ignorance, or intolerance.

Let there be light - ultraviolet disinfectant to festering hypocrisy. Israel will act against this evil because...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RABj8ZTGaM&feature=related

"The only thing necessary
for the triumph of evil....

...is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke


karmafury's photo
Mon 01/12/09 09:03 PM
Edited by karmafury on Mon 01/12/09 09:04 PM
They have as much right to the land as the Palestinians and nowhere else to go.


Now I understand. This has nothing to do with rocket attacks (which have actually caused few fatalities over the the years...23 - 27).


It has to do with land!!!

That's a big NO NO!!!!


Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War
Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of
International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva
from 21 April to 12 August, 1949
entry into force 21 October 1950

Article 49

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons do demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.

The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

Fanta46's photo
Mon 01/12/09 09:37 PM




Hamas Defeats Israel

laugh


laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh


Three in a row! WOW arent y'all brave souls!
You wont fight for Israel or Palestine. You just cheer the deaths of innocents and you cant even do that alone.

Fanta46's photo
Mon 01/12/09 09:39 PM
Why not just go into the streets and gang up on innocents in your home towns. Maybe go down to the local elementary and beat up children.


Thomas3474's photo
Mon 01/12/09 11:47 PM
This is the dumbest post I have read yet.Israel is kicking Hamas's a** all over the place.Israel has also fought every other aggresor and stomped the crap out of them.Israel has nukes and the United States as back up.They will never be defeated in this century or any other.

karmafury's photo
Tue 01/13/09 12:37 AM
Israel has nukes


Hopefully the intelligence not to use them as well. There are others in area who have nukes.

and the United States as back up


Not if they use nukes.

...................................................

ANALYSIS / Perhaps Israel should quit Gaza op while it's still ahead
By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff

As the country waits for developments on the diplomatic front, the operation by the Israel Defense Forces in the Gaza Strip continues, even deepens. The terminology is reminiscent of the first Lebanon war, not just the second: The IDF is "tightening the siege" around Gaza City, which hosts most of the symbols of Hamas rule in the Strip. The operation's "third stage" (the occupation of extensive territory) still needs cabinet approval.

The methodical crawl into the Strip is, not for the first time, influenced by intelligence assessments. Someone - and we can safely assume the Shin Bet security service had something to do with it - has planted in the cabinet the idea that with just one more little push we can vanquish Hamas. This is yet another scenario whose end can be foretold - the takeover of territory that a week ago the government could not imagine the IDF would enter.

However, contributing to the situation is a certain confusion about what is going on in Hamas. It's not just the facts that are unclear. When it is said that Hamas is interested in a cease-fire, the implication is not necessarily that the group is on the verge of collapse. The group is ready for a cease-fire but still on its own terms. At least last night it seemed that it is still willing to go on fighting if its conditions are not accepted.

The head of Military Intelligence, Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin, told the cabinet Sunday of fissures in the Hamas leadership: The Gaza-based leaders, menaced by air attacks and tanks closing in, seek a compromise with Israel. The party's politburo in Damascus is sticking to a tougher line. Meanwhile, Haaretz has learned about significant differences of opinion within Hamas.

The Damascus-based leadership is sternly opposed to the deployment of an international military force, Arab or otherwise, on the Palestinian side of the border with Egypt. (Khaled Meshal went as far to describe such a force as an "occupying force.") On the other hand, the leaders in the Strip have informed their colleagues in Damascus that they do not oppose the presence of an international force.

For its part, Israel continues to step up the pressure. It may be that the delayed return of Amos Gilad, the Defense Ministry's political-security chief, to Cairo stems from a sense that a few more gains on the ground will strengthen Israel's hand.

The issue of smuggling is still the crux of the discussions. Israel, meanwhile, can pressure Hamas and Egypt by terrorizing the population. In Operation Accountability in 1993, the IDF rained 24,000 shells on southern Lebanon, driving 300,000 civilians toward Beirut. The chief of staff during that operation was Ehud Barak.

In the coming day or so, Hamas is expected to clarify its position on the Egyptian initiative. And while PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad pushed for the cease-fire resolution on Thursday, other senior PA officials are calling on Israel to take the battle to the end and topple Hamas rule.

Meanwhile, GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant is recommending the widening of Operation Cast Lead and says more time is needed before the pressure will bring results.

Defense Minister Barak expressed opposition to a long operation. In the ranks below Galant there is usually support for broadening an operation. But Sunday there were other voices, including that of a senior officer among the reservists. "We have exhausted this mission," he said. "It was an excellent exercise in calling up reserves and training, but the time has come to cut before things begin to get messy."

Whoever introduces brigades of reservists into the operation will surely weigh the damage to morale that pictures of dead and wounded reservists would cause. And the monopolistic hold on information will shatter once the reservists start sending home reports of the damage caused by the conscript units before them.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054555.html



Sounds like the terminology of an army at an impasse. Strangely familiar historically and not just from the Lebanon war.

Self admission that they are waging war on civilian population.

And cut before they have too many Reservists who refuse service in Gaza. Soldiers who view it as a war against civilians.

Must let the truth be known about the amount of damage dealt to the civil population. No more stranglehold on what news gets out.

Thomas3474's photo
Tue 01/13/09 12:49 AM

Israel has nukes


Hopefully the intelligence not to use them as well. There are others in area who have nukes.

and the United States as back up


Not if they use nukes.

...................................................

ANALYSIS / Perhaps Israel should quit Gaza op while it's still ahead
By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff

As the country waits for developments on the diplomatic front, the operation by the Israel Defense Forces in the Gaza Strip continues, even deepens. The terminology is reminiscent of the first Lebanon war, not just the second: The IDF is "tightening the siege" around Gaza City, which hosts most of the symbols of Hamas rule in the Strip. The operation's "third stage" (the occupation of extensive territory) still needs cabinet approval.

The methodical crawl into the Strip is, not for the first time, influenced by intelligence assessments. Someone - and we can safely assume the Shin Bet security service had something to do with it - has planted in the cabinet the idea that with just one more little push we can vanquish Hamas. This is yet another scenario whose end can be foretold - the takeover of territory that a week ago the government could not imagine the IDF would enter.

However, contributing to the situation is a certain confusion about what is going on in Hamas. It's not just the facts that are unclear. When it is said that Hamas is interested in a cease-fire, the implication is not necessarily that the group is on the verge of collapse. The group is ready for a cease-fire but still on its own terms. At least last night it seemed that it is still willing to go on fighting if its conditions are not accepted.

The head of Military Intelligence, Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin, told the cabinet Sunday of fissures in the Hamas leadership: The Gaza-based leaders, menaced by air attacks and tanks closing in, seek a compromise with Israel. The party's politburo in Damascus is sticking to a tougher line. Meanwhile, Haaretz has learned about significant differences of opinion within Hamas.

The Damascus-based leadership is sternly opposed to the deployment of an international military force, Arab or otherwise, on the Palestinian side of the border with Egypt. (Khaled Meshal went as far to describe such a force as an "occupying force.") On the other hand, the leaders in the Strip have informed their colleagues in Damascus that they do not oppose the presence of an international force.

For its part, Israel continues to step up the pressure. It may be that the delayed return of Amos Gilad, the Defense Ministry's political-security chief, to Cairo stems from a sense that a few more gains on the ground will strengthen Israel's hand.

The issue of smuggling is still the crux of the discussions. Israel, meanwhile, can pressure Hamas and Egypt by terrorizing the population. In Operation Accountability in 1993, the IDF rained 24,000 shells on southern Lebanon, driving 300,000 civilians toward Beirut. The chief of staff during that operation was Ehud Barak.

In the coming day or so, Hamas is expected to clarify its position on the Egyptian initiative. And while PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad pushed for the cease-fire resolution on Thursday, other senior PA officials are calling on Israel to take the battle to the end and topple Hamas rule.

Meanwhile, GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant is recommending the widening of Operation Cast Lead and says more time is needed before the pressure will bring results.

Defense Minister Barak expressed opposition to a long operation. In the ranks below Galant there is usually support for broadening an operation. But Sunday there were other voices, including that of a senior officer among the reservists. "We have exhausted this mission," he said. "It was an excellent exercise in calling up reserves and training, but the time has come to cut before things begin to get messy."

Whoever introduces brigades of reservists into the operation will surely weigh the damage to morale that pictures of dead and wounded reservists would cause. And the monopolistic hold on information will shatter once the reservists start sending home reports of the damage caused by the conscript units before them.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054555.html



Sounds like the terminology of an army at an impasse. Strangely familiar historically and not just from the Lebanon war.

Self admission that they are waging war on civilian population.

And cut before they have too many Reservists who refuse service in Gaza. Soldiers who view it as a war against civilians.

Must let the truth be known about the amount of damage dealt to the civil population. No more stranglehold on what news gets out.



You got to be kidding me if I believe that nonsense.Are you expecting me to believe that Israel soliders don't want to get some payback at Hamas for the years of rocket attacks and suicide bombers?Hamas has been a thorn in the side of Israel since they took power.I'm sure anyone with a handgun in Israel would glady join the Army and kill every last one off those Jihad loving terrorist.You better read todays news.Israel is not talking about cutting and running.They are talking about striking down a iron fist!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians


GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli troops advanced into Gaza suburbs for the first time early Tuesday, residents said, hours after Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned Islamic militants of an "iron fist" unless they agree to Israel's terms to end the fighting. Hamas showed no signs of wavering, however, with its leader, Ismail Haniyeh, saying the militants were "closer to victory."

nogames39's photo
Tue 01/13/09 12:53 AM
Thomas,

Here is a simplified way they can:

1:
They are fighting this with all they have. Others are watching. They are wondering as to what is the cause of this all.

2:
Others are finding out that Israel was created forcefully, by a UN mandate.

3:
This new-found truth makes them not to desire to support those who are squatting on someone else land, while using the weapons of their big friend and supporter.

4:
US has an economic decline, and is no longer in the position to dictate the world order, nor to keep feeding Israel with endless money and technology.

5:
Israel is alone against those they are trying to remove from existence. They realize, that they can stay, for as long as they are willing to keep dying, just as Palestinians, who had already made it clear that they would rather be killed then die under Israeli boot.

6:
There are others in the region, who do not mind helping Palestinian cause, but they used to be pushed down and afraid of Israel's big friendly bully.



Put all these together, and you will see how this will ultimately end. Israel will have to either die trying or go somewhere else and try to occupy somewhere else's land, and see how that is going to work out.

As to the disgusting methods that Palestinians employ.... Wouldn't you agree that if we gave them the money, the weapons, and the training, then the Palestinians wouldn't feel compelled to use the least efficient methods?

You use what you have at hand.

By the way, why is it that Israel has nuclear weapons, and Iran can't?

karmafury's photo
Tue 01/13/09 12:58 AM
Edited by karmafury on Tue 01/13/09 01:01 AM
You got to be kidding me if I believe that nonsense.Are you expecting me to believe that Israel soliders don't want to get some payback at Hamas for the years of rocket attacks and suicide bombers?Hamas has been a thorn in the side of Israel since they took power.I'm sure anyone with a handgun in Israel would glady join the Army and kill every last one off those Jihad loving terrorist.You better read todays news.Israel is not talking about cutting and running.They are talking about striking down a iron fist!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians


GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli troops advanced into Gaza suburbs for the first time early Tuesday, residents said, hours after Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned Islamic militants of an "iron fist" unless they agree to Israel's terms to end the fighting. Hamas showed no signs of wavering, however, with its leader, Ismail Haniyeh, saying the militants were "closer to victory."


Now then because you don't read what is posted prior I will post again here.


IDF reservist refuses to fight in Gaza over civilian deaths

An Israel Defense Forces reserves soldier, taking part in Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip which entered its 17th day on Monday, has refused to enter the Hamas-ruled territory along with his unit in protest of the killing of Palestinian civilians.

On Monday it emerged that the soldier has been jailed for 14 days in a military facility. He was the first soldier to be tried for refusing orders since the beginning of the operation.

Attorney Michael Sfard, the legal adviser of Omets ? a non profit organization for judicial and social justice ? said that since the beginning of the Israeli offensive on December 27, eight reservists have sought his advice upon being drafted in the emergency reserves call-up.

Of the eight reservists, three have refused to enter the Strip so far. Two of them arrived at agreements with their commanders exempting them from fighting with their units.



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054861.html

.................................................



This has happened before in the IDF. Groups of soldiers and officers have signed letters refusing service in GAZA against a civilian population. Prior time was regular force and reservists.

karmafury's photo
Tue 01/13/09 01:40 AM
* We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.
* We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.
* We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.
* We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.
* We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.
* We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
* We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.
* We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.
* The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.



http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

* Bold type is in original.



s1owhand's photo
Tue 01/13/09 01:54 AM
This is just exactly what makes Israel great. Their commitment to real freedoms. Freedom of speech. Individual freedom. The "occupation" however means different things to different people.

These few IDF refusniks are talking about parts of what is referred to in the media as the West Bank and Gaza and for the most part they refer to peacetime.

When Hamas says "occupation", they refer to all of what is internationally recognized as Israel not merely disputed territories.

Moreover, ver few Israelis refuse to serve when it is to combat terrorist such as Hamas firing rockets at their families in "un-occupied" Israel.


karmafury's photo
Tue 01/13/09 02:02 AM
Their commitment to real freedoms. Freedom of speech. Individual freedom. The "occupation" however means different things to different people.


I saw another letter that gives a fine example of Israeli 'freedoms'.

Not quite what people seem to think. The Israeli term for occupation is just that 'occupation of lands not theirs and over another people'.

s1owhand's photo
Tue 01/13/09 02:27 AM

Their commitment to real freedoms. Freedom of speech. Individual freedom. The "occupation" however means different things to different people.


I saw another letter that gives a fine example of Israeli 'freedoms'.

Not quite what people seem to think. The Israeli term for occupation is just that 'occupation of lands not theirs and over another people'.



laugh

Right.

Read the Hamas charter. Hamas claims all of Israel.

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. If they weren't being attacked by Hamas rockets, they would never be back in Gaza now. But, Hamas does continue indiscriminate attacks on Israel regardless of the harm it may cause to citizens in Gaza.

ill

Thomas3474's photo
Tue 01/13/09 02:57 AM
Edited by Thomas3474 on Tue 01/13/09 02:58 AM

Thomas,

Here is a simplified way they can:

1:
They are fighting this with all they have. Others are watching. They are wondering as to what is the cause of this all.

2:
Others are finding out that Israel was created forcefully, by a UN mandate.

3:
This new-found truth makes them not to desire to support those who are squatting on someone else land, while using the weapons of their big friend and supporter.

4:
US has an economic decline, and is no longer in the position to dictate the world order, nor to keep feeding Israel with endless money and technology.

5:
Israel is alone against those they are trying to remove from existence. They realize, that they can stay, for as long as they are willing to keep dying, just as Palestinians, who had already made it clear that they would rather be killed then die under Israeli boot.

6:
There are others in the region, who do not mind helping Palestinian cause, but they used to be pushed down and afraid of Israel's big friendly bully.



Put all these together, and you will see how this will ultimately end. Israel will have to either die trying or go somewhere else and try to occupy somewhere else's land, and see how that is going to work out.

As to the disgusting methods that Palestinians employ.... Wouldn't you agree that if we gave them the money, the weapons, and the training, then the Palestinians wouldn't feel compelled to use the least efficient methods?

You use what you have at hand.

By the way, why is it that Israel has nuclear weapons, and Iran can't?



Sorry but smoke and mirrors doesn't fly with me.


1.)Israel is hardly using all it's force.I doubt if it is even using 10% of it.I have yet to read of a air raid of 470 airplanes and a invasion of over 500,000 soliders.

ISRAEL:

Troop strength: 168,000, made up of 125,000 army, 35,000 air force, 8,000 navy. Also 408,000 reservists.

Equipment: 3,630 tanks, 470 warplanes, 15 warships, 3 submarines, 200 nuclear warheads, Patriot missiles.

HEZBOLLAH:

Strength: 600 to 1,000 fighters, 3,000 to 5,000 available. 10,000 reservists

Equipment: 10,000 to 15,000 rockets, according to the Jane's Defence Weekly magazine. Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said in May that the Shiite militia group had 12,000 rockets.

Rockets include: Katyusha, with a range of 29 kilometres; Fajr-3 (45 kilometres), Fajr-5 (75 kilometres), supplied by Iran

Missiles: Zelzal 1 and 2 -- perhaps around 30 supplied by Iran



2.)Wrong-Israel has always been there since biblical times.More to the point Jews have always lived in Israel.The UN wanted to divide Israel and the Palestinians.Both Israel and the Palestinians disagreed on the UN recommendation and both went to war.Israel won and therefore has a ligitamate right to live there.

3.)There is no truth to what you are saying.It has always been Israel's land.I would go so far as to say the Palestinians are living on Jewish land and should move.I don't see what relevance who's weapons they use.

4.)The United States funds Israel because Israel is a friend and ally of the United states.Both the United States and Israel fight global terrorism.

5.)Israel is not alone.The United States will always back Israel.The United kingdom will too.I'm sure there is also other countries that will support Israel if they needed it.

6.)That is not true.Israel is not a big bully.If anything Israel is just the opposite.Two years of rockets attacks with out a invasion is just one example.


Israel will never leave and Israel will never be destroyed.They have enough firepower to easily destroy most of the countries around them.As a Christian I also know that Israel will never be destroyed as it is written in the bible.


I have no sympathy for anyone who attacks Israel.I don't care if they are trying to fight them with sticks and stones.They need to be wiped off the face of the earth.They are the ones that started it and they are the ones who can reap their destruction.Hamas has been supplied with everything from guns,rockets,RPG's,vehicles,and many other weapons mostly from Iran.They are well armed.

As for your last statement it is total absurd.Why can't Iran have nuclear weapons?Because their dictator is a crazed lunatic hell bent on Israel's and the United States destruction.Letting Iran have a nuclear weapon would make about as much sense as giving a terrorist a warehouse full of bombs.

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