“When asked about Free Will, I always give the same response, “Of course we do; I had no choice.” Christopher Hitchens gave this response at a Christian Book Expo Panel and while I think it was a funny response and that Hitchens had a great point within that context, I don’t think we actually have “Free Will.”

After saying that, Christians often tell me that if I don’t believe in Free Will, than I must believe that we have no choices. This of course is a false dichotomy. My claim isn’t that we don’t have choices, but rather that our choices are not “freely determined.” Instead, our choices are determined by a complex set of variables which play out in our nature and our nurture. Nature represents all our genetic variables and Nurture represents all the environmental factors (most of which we are not even aware of).

Even in infancy, where one might think that actions are determined on Nature alone I still think that there is plenty of Nurture going on in the womb and in the infant’s environment. Nature only refers to genetics. The nutrients are considered Nurture.

The complex interplay between these two factors is the determining characteristics of all of our actions and choices. The thing is that we don’t know how that interplay will play out so we have the appearance of Free Will. Now here is the catch, we can still make choices. We can still weigh the option and choose what path to take in life. Regardless of which path we choose, it was a choice that was determined by our Nature and our Nurture. In this model, “determined” isn’t a predictor of action because of the complexity of the interplay of our two determining forces. Here “determined” is more of a justification for our choices.

Here is an example: I am walking down a hall that I am familiar with. I know that there is an intersection ahead and that both paths will lead me to my destination. Which path do I choose? My mind works very quickly. Quicker that I even realize and calculates things that I am not even consciously aware of. I choose right. To a Christian who believes in Free Will, that choice is a free choice. But to a rational, thinking, person who is aware of modern psychology, that choice was a determined choice. Why did I go right is the question?

A Christian believing in Free Will would claim that such a choice is a random decision made by the choice maker. They might claim that it is a free choice with no baggage or attachment to it. But the fact is that even if we don’t know what determined that choice, it was still a determined choice. If I would have gone left, that too would have been the determined choice. I might have been as simple as the fact that I am genetically right handed and that is why I went right. It could have been because a saw a cute girl down the right path a few weeks ago and subconsciously I hope she might be there again. Maybe subconsciously I am trying to avoid someone I saw down the left path weeks earlier. It could even be a subconscious complex calculation based on multiple factors. Or perhaps it isn’t subconscious at all.

The point here is that “Free Will” is a myth just like the God who is alleged to have given it to us. Only people who choose not to educate themselves and to focus on a short-sighted view on behavior are believers in Free Will. And even though their choice to remain ignorant was a determined choice, they still have a choice to weigh the Nurture of education against the Nurture or their indoctrination. They can still choose to be educated.

Seamonster wrote:

" The point here is that “Free Will” is a MYTH JUST LIKE THE GOD who is alleged to have given it to us...."


Seamonster......

That heart pumping in your chest.....day in and day out......WHO keeps it beating ?

Those lungs that automatically take in each breath of air...day in day out...
even while you are sleeeping ...WHO keeps you breathing ?

Those fingers that type on the keyboard to post here...and that mind to think with ............. WHO gave you that ability ?

Those eyes that read the words on this forum....yet can see the stars that shine at night.....billions of miles away...WHO gave you the ability to do that?

WHO ?

WHO ?

We all have free will. Mine is to Love our Heavenly Father

yours is to reject him

see how simple it works

short sighted??? ignorant??? Not all Christians refuse to learn about others or live in a box. that is generalizing. I learn all I can about other beliefs and opinion....but I choose to hold my beliefs because that is what is righ for me. I should to be educated. Many people of many beliefs choose to be educated as well. Just because someone has a belief in someone doesn't mean they are small minded or not intelligent. Just as you have the right to choose your beliefs doesn't make you small minded or less intelligent

The free will issue sometimes makes me wonder why God didn't just save everybody all the drama, and NOT give us free will and just make us pre-programmed to be followers. That way...EVERYBODY would be happy, good little followers, the bible would never have to been written, no war, no famine, no sin, no death, etc.... Just a perfect world.


Looks like God wanted a challenge, and said "Instead of making everyone believe in me...I'll make it interesting, and give them a CHOICE."

Ever read Walend 2 by B.F. Skinner, its a little over the top, but we all have a lot of pre-programming in us. Just look at all the people here with their baggage from past relationships.

Even if you reject the idea that we are all slaves to biological processes and supplant it with christian ideas, there is no free will. Free will in christianity is just as much a myth; it is slavery to a predetermined history, unwitting actors in a play before god.

Hey seamonster, if we change our biology through drugs or as yet undiscovered genetics means does that change your notion of free will?

There are those that think deeply about these topics and those that brush off uncomfortable thoughts before they get to deep.

I wrote this realy in depth responce to this and my comp froze up and I lost it.
And i'm about to go out.
I will try again tomorrow.

There is no free will for the religious. That is the "smoke and mirrors" in the religion to make the religious think they are making the good choice daily. It is also the smoke and mirrors for the reason that some will not willingly follow.

As for the non religious their free will is affected by the biological and ecological influences but it is more free will than the latter.

"free will" is a concept conceived by people

just like the easter bunny

Free Will.

That is an interesting topic. While I don't have time for a full discussion tonight, I do have a couple quick comments.

Free Will from a Christian perspective is the ability to overcome both nature and nurture and make a free choice.

1. Free Will does not mean that nature/nurture have no effect.
2. I suspect that most of the time people do not exercise free will.
3. I suspect that I often go through life without using free will.
4. I believe that when I make a carefully considered decision to change, that I am exercising free will.

It is theoretically possible that free will could be proven to exist or not exist. However, we are not even remotely close to being able to prove either side of the free will debate. To prove free will requires us to have an accurate definition of every nature/nurture variable, and be able to consistently predict the results of each variable. Only then could we run an experiment that would prove that free will exists, or does not exist.

Because of the lack of proof regarding free will, it is up to each individual to decide if they choose to believe in free will.

In order to choose "A", one must first know of the possibility of "A".

Voluntary choice is determined by that which we perceive to be of choice.

Free will was conceived to exhonerate the god of Abraham from the responsibility regarding the existence of evil.

Blame it on the disobedient children.

I feel that we have the will to choose how we feel about something.

We also have the will to think one thing or another.

We also have the will to direct our thoughts towards anything we want.

The "choice" involves the use of the will (or not.) It is not about the thing that we choose. It is about a conscious and deliberate choice to consciously choose or decide.

Everyone has a will. They either use it or they run mostly on automatic programing. With automatic programing they don't have to consciously choose. The choices they make are automatic. They don't have to think much about them. They are learned or programed responses.

That is why some people think we don't have "free will" because they realize that we largely run on automatic or learned programing. But that is okay too. There is nothing wrong with that. We designed it that way so we would not have to "think" about every tiny choice we make every single second.

A lot of what we do is automatic, especially things that we have learned or made a habit of doing.

We have a will. It is free when we decide to use it. The will is the power to direct new feeling and thought and forge new pathways through the universe.

I'd like to think I have free will. On one hand though there is a god(s) who being god(s) are, I assume, by definition omnipotent in which case I am but an actor in play and regardless of whether it progression is fast forwarded or rewound, it always play out the same way. On the other hand I am slave to biological programming, all thing being equal, the execution of my life program will always end the same.
Makes you wonder what is the point of it all? Is there a path down the middle that allows for free will?
Has anyone else read "Breakfast of Champions"?

Just my two cents here:
With the particular path I follow I believe we DO have free will. The only two things that are predestined are your birth and your death. There are no near misses, just wake up calls. I believe that All That Is puts us here through a choice we make. We decide to come here and experience all that we can, to live this life and bring the knowledge we gain back to Them.
In return, They sit back and watch, sometimes throwing situations at us, other times simply allowing us to be human. We are always given a choice, right or left? Or down the middle? Life is an infinate variety of choices that we make on our own. Sometimes you're given a nudge in a particular direction, but what good parent doesn't do that? You still have the right and ability to say "I don't want to go that way". Ergo, free will.
I believe that we cooperate with Them. Or not, our choice. I'm not saying that biology, environment and all that should be dismissed, they have very obvious effects on who we are and what we do. BUT anyone can overcome their situations and circumstances. Or not, their choice.

You are still just an actor before your gods, if they are omnipotent. If they cab see the entirety of your life, then whatever you do it is not original and unexpected. You play the role of kindred2wicked and you are unable to stray from the script.

Not true ThomasJB.

We write the script. The so-called "gods" are but our own subconscious that sees more and knows more than we, as limited incarnated egotistic human beings experience.

We are them.
They are us.

We are not at the mercy of omnipotent beings. We are at the mercy of ourselves. What we do to others, we do to our self.