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| Topic: How Obamacare taxes the working class (article) | |
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What's funny is the concept of economics is known, and predictible to a point. You have the Austrian economists, who see the economy as an extension of nature. Nature, itself, is self regulating. This is much like the free market. Problem is, it doesn't make for a cushy life. It could be cushy, but it would require sacrifice, participation, and, gasp, the ability to think freely. Currenty, governments and corporations (if you believe there is a difference) are pushing to make us "fat and happy" as Shakespear would put it. Basically creating the illusion that we have wealth, when we do not possess it. This is done through artificial expansion of credit. In the end, the money will fall where it would have, because nature itself follows the rules of science. Physics 101 - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Economic 101, lesson number 1 - for every action taken to control the market, there is an equal and opposite reaction. For every fake credit expansion, there is a credit crunch that occurs. This results in "recessions" and "depressions". What i question, is why they try to fight these credit crunches, caused by artificial credit expansions, by artificially expanding the credit. I would like to discuss any mathematics, or any economic principles with anyone, even to the point where i am proven wrong. Problem is, i will not take anyone's word for it. This point must be shown to me. I'll take that challenge. While you won't see the following in a Physics 101 text, that doesn't mean that Newtonian systems can't themselves become extremely unpredictable extremely quickly. For example, it's not all that difficult to calculate the future positions of a few billard balls. That is until you keep adding balls and then upping the number of collisions-- then it quickly gets out of hand after about 10 sets of collisions for a lot of balls. The rounding errors alone doom the enterprise, to say nothing of the measurement errors. The economy is a LOT more like those billiard balls than it is figuring out how to make a rocket hit the moon. You're better off looking at Newton's First Law as being diagnostic, not predictive. Because just because there are forces acting, that doesn't guarantee there will be motion. -Kerry O. This analogy is kind of what I'm getting at. Sciences are only as exact as their inputs. It is impossible to know what every person at every moment is wanting so therefore, economic theory cannot be an exact science such as chemistry. If you run the exact same model every 5 minutes, you will always have different outcomes because the data input is always changing. You cannot predict it's exact location, but you can get a damn good idea of where it's headed. The problem with you analogy is that you can see two, four, or a hundred balls on the table. With economics, you cannot see the scams that go on beneath the surface. That is why you will never predict these outcomes. Besides, when I say I think more people need economic theory 101, I do not mean that they need to learn to predict anything, only a general knowledge of how taxation, regulation, increased costs, and inflation change the supply and demand curves so they understand how these are related. |
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I don't think the health care bill is gonna pass
they are delaying it too much and the longer it's delayed the more time people have to actually read it and find stuff thats not acceptable If it delays after the start of the year I think it'll get voted down |
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I don't think the health care bill is gonna pass they are delaying it too much and the longer it's delayed the more time people have to actually read it and find stuff thats not acceptable If it delays after the start of the year I think it'll get voted down It's not so much that as that when they get back from winter recess, it's campaign mode. this is why it is being rushed because right now, a lot of dems are having trouble and at this point, one lost seat loses the whole schebang. Especially since this time, there is no presidential election to rally the youth and minorities like last go-round. Plus, there is no cooling off period if a dem votes yea and their constituants are pissed. if it's done right after elections, there's far more time for the goldfish to forget. Basically, the longer it drags on, the harder it will be to pass. I say good riddance. |
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Dammit! How many times do I have to tell you that you cannot post anything involving economics and actual logic around here!?! You know it just confuses the living daylights out of everyone lol. It's really very simple, actually, and exactly what is wrong with the plan. I just wish mire people had taken economics 101 so they could understand why. Great article  doesnt really take economics if one has ever been employed with insurance. I pay the same price for my insurance as anyone else in my company, regardless of their pay. When I enroll, there is no per salary basis that I chose, it is based upon the number of dependents and the cost is the same for everyone in the company regardless of their pay scale. This is really no different than what is already in place, except that it is being mandated. |
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Dammit! How many times do I have to tell you that you cannot post anything involving economics and actual logic around here!?! You know it just confuses the living daylights out of everyone lol. It's really very simple, actually, and exactly what is wrong with the plan. I just wish mire people had taken economics 101 so they could understand why. Great article doesnt really take economics if one has ever been employed with insurance. I pay the same price for my insurance as anyone else in my company, regardless of their pay. When I enroll, there is no per salary basis that I chose, it is based upon the number of dependents and the cost is the same for everyone in the company regardless of their pay scale. This is really no different than what is already in place, except that it is being mandated. But if it's " really no different "...then why would they feel the NEED to mandate it?? Wouldn't you think that they would want to " mandate " that the price you pay be based, in part, on how much you make?? |
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Dammit! How many times do I have to tell you that you cannot post anything involving economics and actual logic around here!?! You know it just confuses the living daylights out of everyone lol. It's really very simple, actually, and exactly what is wrong with the plan. I just wish mire people had taken economics 101 so they could understand why. Great article doesnt really take economics if one has ever been employed with insurance. I pay the same price for my insurance as anyone else in my company, regardless of their pay. When I enroll, there is no per salary basis that I chose, it is based upon the number of dependents and the cost is the same for everyone in the company regardless of their pay scale. This is really no different than what is already in place, except that it is being mandated. But if it's " really no different "...then why would they feel the NEED to mandate it?? Wouldn't you think that they would want to " mandate " that the price you pay be based, in part, on how much you make?? No. I dont know of an insurance company that has income based rates.. their rates are their rates and you can afford them or you cant,,basically. Employers go with an insurance provider and they agree to the rate they agree to, just like individuals do. The particulars of the WHOLE bill have differences, of course. I was speaking about the issue in the OP which seemed to be income based insurance rates vs fixed insurance rates. |
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Fair enough.
So let me ask you this, then. Do you really think it takes 2000+ pages to " reform " health care?? Do you think it could be much simpler, but they are trying to hide things in the bill?? |
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Fair enough. So let me ask you this, then. Do you really think it takes 2000+ pages to " reform " health care?? Do you think it could be much simpler, but they are trying to hide things in the bill?? To cover as many different scenarios as arise in the healthcare industry, I think it could possibly take that and more. I doubt anything is being hidden so much as an effort made to cover everything they can think of at once. |
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Fair enough. So let me ask you this, then. Do you really think it takes 2000+ pages to " reform " health care?? Do you think it could be much simpler, but they are trying to hide things in the bill?? To cover as many different scenarios as arise in the healthcare industry, I think it could possibly take that and more. I doubt anything is being hidden so much as an effort made to cover everything they can think of at once. It's not nearly as complicated as you might think or that they WANT to think. The basic tenets of the bill are.... Make sure that the uninsured get coverage Make sure that the insurance companies don't refuse someone due to pre existing conditions TRY to make sure that prices for health care go down How many pages and words do they really need to say that?? It's like the United States tax code. 3,387 pages at 16,800+ words per page. How hard would it be to say " Hey. If you make this much, you pay this much. If you give to charity, you get credit. If you have kids, you get credit. Otherwise, no loopholes, no exceptions " this country has been getting " dumbed down " for quite a while. Now they know that most people don't have enough of an attention span to decipher all the double speak and legalese that they have put in that bill. |
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Fair enough. So let me ask you this, then. Do you really think it takes 2000+ pages to " reform " health care?? Do you think it could be much simpler, but they are trying to hide things in the bill?? To cover as many different scenarios as arise in the healthcare industry, I think it could possibly take that and more. I doubt anything is being hidden so much as an effort made to cover everything they can think of at once. It's not nearly as complicated as you might think or that they WANT to think. The basic tenets of the bill are.... Make sure that the uninsured get coverage Make sure that the insurance companies don't refuse someone due to pre existing conditions TRY to make sure that prices for health care go down How many pages and words do they really need to say that?? It's like the United States tax code. 3,387 pages at 16,800+ words per page. How hard would it be to say " Hey. If you make this much, you pay this much. If you give to charity, you get credit. If you have kids, you get credit. Otherwise, no loopholes, no exceptions " this country has been getting " dumbed down " for quite a while. Now they know that most people don't have enough of an attention span to decipher all the double speak and legalese that they have put in that bill. the average joe is dumbed down, but the lawyers and big business are very wise. they can find so many loopholes to avoid doing what they are supposed to that I think, sadly, there has to be this ridiculous detail to say things that should otherwise be covered in one or two simple sentences.Leaves less wiggle room for those inclined to find a way out. |
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Fair enough. So let me ask you this, then. Do you really think it takes 2000+ pages to " reform " health care?? Do you think it could be much simpler, but they are trying to hide things in the bill?? To cover as many different scenarios as arise in the healthcare industry, I think it could possibly take that and more. I doubt anything is being hidden so much as an effort made to cover everything they can think of at once. It's not nearly as complicated as you might think or that they WANT to think. The basic tenets of the bill are.... Make sure that the uninsured get coverage Make sure that the insurance companies don't refuse someone due to pre existing conditions TRY to make sure that prices for health care go down How many pages and words do they really need to say that?? It's like the United States tax code. 3,387 pages at 16,800+ words per page. How hard would it be to say " Hey. If you make this much, you pay this much. If you give to charity, you get credit. If you have kids, you get credit. Otherwise, no loopholes, no exceptions " this country has been getting " dumbed down " for quite a while. Now they know that most people don't have enough of an attention span to decipher all the double speak and legalese that they have put in that bill. the average joe is dumbed down, but the lawyers and big business are very wise. they can find so many loopholes to avoid doing what they are supposed to that I think, sadly, there has to be this ridiculous detail to say things that should otherwise be covered in one or two simple sentences.Leaves less wiggle room for those inclined to find a way out. Ah but that's where you are mistaken. More and more language means more and more loopholes for them to exploit. Simpler language would be MUCH harder to find a loophole in than the multiple pages of double speak that the government is so fond of. Where is the loophole in " If you make this much, you PAY this much "??? There isn't one. |
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Actually this country is smarting up.
Which is why there is so much opposition to the crud congress and the senate have been and are continuing to pull. This health care bill has nothing to do with our actuall wellbeing... and a lot to do with control of government... It is a patchwork quilt of mismatched parts assembled by a cash based roll call and out right bold in our face THEFT AND GREED. what right does congress have to MANDATE to a citizen of the UNITED STATES anything! Such a mandate may force a vote by gunpowder... |
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Actually this country is smarting up. Which is why there is so much opposition to the crud congress and the senate have been and are continuing to pull. This health care bill has nothing to do with our actuall wellbeing... and a lot to do with control of government... It is a patchwork quilt of mismatched parts assembled by a cash based roll call and out right bold in our face THEFT AND GREED. what right does congress have to MANDATE to a citizen of the UNITED STATES anything! Such a mandate may force a vote by gunpowder... Well its sad to me that people are willing to die over something that gives everyone healthcare,,,,mandated or not. But everyone has their own priorities, and unfortunately with many , its their pockets. |
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I don't get why we need to spend $2 trillion dollars to replace a healthcare system that 86% of the people are happy with
instead of making a new system why not just spend a fraction of that to get the few uninsured people covered? |
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Actually this country is smarting up. Which is why there is so much opposition to the crud congress and the senate have been and are continuing to pull. This health care bill has nothing to do with our actuall wellbeing... and a lot to do with control of government... It is a patchwork quilt of mismatched parts assembled by a cash based roll call and out right bold in our face THEFT AND GREED. what right does congress have to MANDATE to a citizen of the UNITED STATES anything! Such a mandate may force a vote by gunpowder... Well its sad to me that people are willing to die over something that gives everyone healthcare,,,,mandated or not. But everyone has their own priorities, and unfortunately with many , its their pockets. With me it's more like independence. That and even the brief knowledge of economics allows me to see that a government run insurance will not help healthcare out one bit. Sure more will be covered... But the quality will slowly decrease, as it has been.... Only way to get the best care for the best price is take a chainsaw to the red tape.... |
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I don't get why we need to spend $2 trillion dollars to replace a healthcare system that 86% of the people are happy with instead of making a new system why not just spend a fraction of that to get the few uninsured people covered? Indeed....And/OR, how about start paying the hospitals the money owed to them from medicare and medicade? This would surely reduce the cost of healthcare, i would think... |
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I don't get why we need to spend $2 trillion dollars to replace a healthcare system that 86% of the people are happy with instead of making a new system why not just spend a fraction of that to get the few uninsured people covered? Where do you get that figure? The 86%? There aren't nearly that many in this country who even have health care. I'm sure the ones without aren't happy with the current situation quiet. |
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What's up Driven my
brother?
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I don't get why we need to spend $2 trillion dollars to replace a healthcare system that 86% of the people are happy with instead of making a new system why not just spend a fraction of that to get the few uninsured people covered? Where do you get that figure? The 86%? There aren't nearly that many in this country who even have health care. I'm sure the ones without aren't happy with the current situation quiet. For that matter where do you come up with 2 trillion? Exaggerating a little there aren't you? |
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What's up Driven my brother? Hey man, stayin busy in attempt to keep myself out of trouble... you know the usual... Been a while since i've seen you on this thing. How have you been? |
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