Since you have such an extensive experience in service, I would like to ask how many gay men did you know? How many were you friends with? In fact how many did you serve with altogether? Where you ever in battle with gay men at your side?

You see these are important questions because the number of times you were scoped out in the shower, comprimized in the mess hall, or manhandled by a gay man might support your reasoning. If you cannot provide proof of these things occuring to others and they have not occured in your personal experience - then where did your reasoning come from?

So now are we discussing the stereo type that gays cannot control themselves sexually? Or are we discussing the long suffering false "manly" taught misinformation that "men are just like that" and "you know he is a man so he can't help himself" or " He is just a man so therefore gets to lech and noone holds him responsible for it" all of which are WRONG but is that it?

Cause I do believe that if a man really applies himself uses all his manliness he can control himself in all situations even when presented with nudity either male or female

Actually, your questions are NOT, as you think, 'important' - they're intrusive and arrogant. But, since you want a synopsis, I'll share with you how we handled the problem of gays in our unit. We had three individuals in our platoon who, had they just confined their behavior to themselves, would have been tolerated. They didn't. They started attracting the 'local gays' from town, and frankly, we got fed up hearing them come around our barracks on the weekend with their cries of 'oh MAAAAAAAARY, can you come out to plaaaaaayyyyyy ... ?'. So we dealt with it. One night, we visited the bunk of the group's ringleader around 0200. Six held him down with a blanket. Two used socks with that yellow brick of Octagon soap to say 'hello'. About fifteen minutes later, he heard a voice tell him that if he didn't ask the CO to transfer him and his two 'friends' immediately the next morning, we'd visit him again and again until he got the message. Next morning the three of 'em were in the CO's office. By that afternoon they were gone. And no, there were no repercussions on us. Like it or not, THAT's the reality of it. If they get rid of 'DADT', it'll be like this and worse ... but since you have no frame of reference for military service, you'll likely continue with the fictional game of 'pretend' and 'not fair' ...

Too bad we can't prosecute these kind of confessions. Gay bashing is really sickening.

You hid in a group of men who snubbed the authority in whom you were trained to respect and rely on. You attacked your victim for no more than words that were not even directed to you? The power of your number and the unprovoked surprise attack are not what should be expected of a well trained troops. They are not even actions most adults expect from other adults they are actions we see in the murderous events against the Mathew Shepherds of the world.

You did not report what offended you because you knew the response from your commanders would not release your fear beacuse it would not be considered an incident (a man) would report. So you faced your fear with aggression under the cover of the annonimity one finds in groups.

There was no offense against you, and no words were worthy of the violence you perpitrated on another human being. Your only defense now is that you see your own aggression reflected in that which you offended.

Your fear is your own aggession - not homosexuals who only want to sever thier country without fear of the likes of people like you.

I was not referring to friendships or battle though, I was referring to FORCED sleeping arrangements. I doubt that military are any less in need of SLEEP than anyone else and with sleep being a necessity, a certain level of comfort should be expected to attain that goal. There does not need to be aggression in an advance. As I stated,, the same reason I dont want a straight female to be forced to sleep and shower with a straight male,, is the reason I dont want a straight person to be forced to sleep and shower with a same sex homosexual person.

Perhaps there are other reasons why it seems as if this has not been an issue, mainly that such 'preference' has been required to be kept to oneself at risk of discharge. IF this PREFERENCE is now allowed to be OPENLY displayed,, it may become much more of an issue ...

If you have never served in the Military then you have no idea why Don't ask don't tell was put there to begin with.If you have served in the Military you know that the majority of the people in the Military come from small towns.Needless to say they do not like gays,don't want to be around gays,or do not want to live with gays.It is hard enough just trying to get the racist blacks and the racist whites to get along.Putting in openly gay people is just fueling the fire.

You think you have a lot of privacy in the Military???Boot camp is 3 months long.When you shower you all line up in one long line standing in front of a open bay shower room waiting for a opening.Everything is in the open.The bathroom stalls don't even have doors.There is fights nearly every day.You really think 165 stressed,angry,guys from all over America want a few openly gay guys in the shower with them?It's a very bad idea.

If you are living on the base you will be sharing a room with someone.In my case I had to share a room with 2 other people who I have never met.Some people stay a few months others a few weeks.I had to share my room with two black guys once who didn't like my music and actually threw my radio out of a 5 story window.They would stay up till 1am in the morning,playing rap music,cussing,and partying.When I told them to shut up I am trying to sleep they just told me "f**k off white boy".I had other roommates that were trouble makers,some that were thieves,and other that mentally crazy.Not being able to choose my roommates was nothing but Hell!It was one of the worst times in my life.If I had a openly gay roommate he would bring his boyfriend into the room and talk in that stupid high voice,talk about issues I probably wouldn't want to hear about,and of course have sex with him.I could not think of anything more irritating then living with a gay man.Mexicans are well known for not only opposition to the gays but beatings as well.You put a openly gay man with a racist Mexican man and you have a recipe for a murder scene.


The main reason men and women do not serve together on ships in the Navy is because people start falling in love,women get pregnant,lover spats happen,and people start having sex.You may not think this is a big issue but it is!A typical ship deployment is 6 to 9 months away from home.Cheating,lying,bickering,fighting,you name it and it will happen.I know this first hand as I was on a Naval command with many women on it.It creates a lot of problems when everyone is screwing everyone on your command.When I was placed on a ship with all males you didn't have all that drama and BS.It was very professional.


Don't ask don't tell was put there because gays coming out in the military created more problems then it solved.How would you feel if the Government told the kids in Colleges and Universities that they could not pick their roommates and the Government was going to pick them instead?You think it's a good idea to start putting Christians and Gays together in the same room?It's a horrible idea.The Military has and still is hostile to Gays.That is why the only people who rally for the repeal of this bill is the gays serving and not anyone else.

Your last sentence is untrue. I am not gay and I do not serve and I fight for equality regardless.

As to the rest it is a biased view, I would think, don't you?

I have ran into Christians who regardless to their religion understand that being gay is not a sin. So you are speaking only for yourself.

http://www.hrc.org/issues/military/4884.htm

Although gay, lesbian and bisexual service members have been held to the "Don't Tell" portion of the policy, reports show that the "Don't Ask, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass" parts of the policy are often ignored.


A 2000 Defense Department inspector general survey showed that 80 percent of service members had heard offensive speech, derogatory names, jokes or remarks about gays in the previous year, and that 85 percent believed such comments were tolerated. Thirty-seven percent reported that they had witnessed or experienced direct, targeted forms of harassment, including verbal and physical assaults and property damage. Overwhelmingly, service members did not report the harassment. When asked why, many cited fear of retaliation.


Anti-gay epithets and jokes are not the only forms of sexual orientation harassment that persist in the military. In July 1999, Pfc. Barry Winchell was brutally beaten with a baseball bat in his barracks at Fort Campbell, Ky. He died as a result of the attack. Fellow soldiers testified that the death came months after vile anti-gay name-calling and harassment, rumor-mongering and inquiries into his private life. An Army inspector general report in July 2000 found that before and after the murder, Maj. Gen. Robert Clark, the commanding general at Fort Campbell, had not provided required training on the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

And that is why we need to break some heads figuratively speaking of homosexual bashers in the military. The only way to do that is to stop allowing them an out for their WRONG AND VIOLENT BEHAVIOR.

Making homosexuality appear wrong is false justification for "retaliation".

This thread has just sickened me

are you afraid the gayness of a soldier will rub off and turn a straight man gay??? What's the difference between someone that doesn't disclose they are gay and serving a long career than being open? It's a double standard to claim that serving in a military is the highest honor of patriotism yet denying that right to gays and lesbians. The kool aid's affected your logic.

msharmony, the arrangements are not forced they are a condition of the job. The conditions exist before the applicants sign up and they really don't shoot you for deciding you want to leave if you do not like the accommodations. You keep referring to comfort as if comfort was a right troops are entitled to. That too is given up when they sign up and they certainly discover that in basic training. These men and women are being trained for war, they are being trained to experience and adapt to the most uncomfortable of situations.

If men and women being trained to go to war are not capable of handling a sexual advance from a unit member how will they react in a country where they are chided relentlessly, where even little children are taught to disrespect American soldiers.

You and the American people EXPECT that our soldiers are more than instruments of death, we EXPECT them to carry some semblance of American values and ethics and NOT to demonstrate the grade school mentality that cannot stand up to name-calling or a homophobic fear of bigoted adults who are incapable of deterring how to cope with a non-violent sexual advance without using violence in return.

America has created this environment of false fear by allowing discrimination of homosexuals to continue for too long. We have hid in closets, we have denied who we are, we have lied and those actions allow you (the fearful heterosexuals) to have just as false a conception of safety based on some erroneous perception of segregation. We are not now nor have we ever been a segregated part of the population, except as existed through lies and denial.

To change that, we must end all the laws that allow people to believe they are protected by some invisible barrier that serves to segregate us from you mainstream lives. We, as homosexuals, must come out of hiding and be conspicuous, even though we only want to be part of the whole. We are not separate we are your neighbors, we are you class mates and in schools, and gyms we shower with you and have the locker next to yours. We are your bosses, your hired help; we are your teachers, your council members, you caregivers. We are not your molesters nor are we a third sex and if the off chance occurs that one of us finds you so delightful a woman and, through misunderstanding, makes a non-violent sexual advance - then by god, have the humble nature to accept the flattery and decency to turn down the offer.

The only reason you and others do not consider that easy route is most likely because- as a society, we have agreed to allow men to be so aggressive as to fear their advances. Even other men FEAR the advances of other men because they live the mentality we have accepted in our society, that masculinity requires aggression.

In my opinions, homosexual males are less likely to be aggressive, logically so - consider that they live in country where they have to hide, where they often fear being found out, where the wrong move can lead to violence and the mover is highly outnumbered. LOGIC!

And so the solution = end the discriminatory laws so that the fear can be faced and dispelled.

Hey, you asked. Lemme just put it this way: The military exists to do TWO things: Kill people and break things. It is NOT a 'social engineering / social equality / social justice' experimental laboratory. The Army doesn't manage unit-level problems like this - they let the TROOPS manage 'em themselves. We did. I never expected your 'approval' and really don't care that you don't like our solution to the problem - if you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.

You state: >>>Lemme just put it this way: The military exists to do TWO things: Kill people and break things. It is NOT a 'social engineering / social equality / social justice' experimental laboratory. <<<<

We have weapons of mass destruction that can accomplish this - so why put our people in situations in which they will be destroyed?

Why do we find the kind acts of a soldier toward the enemy touching and worthy when we pay them and train them to be hate filled animals with only one misstion - to kill and break things?

Why do you are any person raise the kind of behavior you have attached to soldiers to the greatest of nobal acts?

You stated: >>>The Army doesn't manage unit-level problems like this - they let the TROOPS manage 'em themselves.<<<<

The ability to communication is necessary for all men and women being trained so what you have mistaken as your right to violence may have been a trust that you would learn to 'communicate' with a unit member on whom your life might depend. But some people do not learn as well as others and their bigotry continues to follow them and can be detrimental to others - we don't need to segregate the homosexuals from the heterosexuals - we need to weed out those whose bigotry precludes their abiltity to be a dependable, ethical soldier.

This is so predictable ... tell ya what - ENLIST and SERVE a tour, then respond again with new insights, okay ... ?

thats an option too,, as I said,, if that is the standard we want to hold the military to,,,than get rid of gender recognition too and just throw EVERYONE in with each other (it would save money)

Then, women would be makin' more than the men.

What with having to pay child support and all.

But then, this is supposed to be about the other team. They can't make babies if all they can do is munch carpet or cruise the old Hershey Highway. So, no child support for them!

didnt even have to go there,,,smh

Im just saying if we are going to trust people not to act on their attractions and trust others to 'just' turn down those offers that make them uncomfortable,, there is no reason to bunk males and females in seperate quarters,,,,trust them all the way,,,

Maybe, in a neutered and spayed world.

Most of 'em are young, dumb and full o' it< !

I forget what a room full of testosterone and hormones smells and feels like.

Do you still remember?

doesnt matter, they are military, they should be able to handle it, they need to get over it and do their job,,,,( I think thats how the argument goes anyhow)