its not funny, for the most part, we are being robbed of our freedoms.
sometimes a terroist plane hitting a building is just a terrorist plane
hitting a building, though.

DaVinci writes:

"gee the list of professional nut jobs is getting larger I guess..."

Google up "Tacoma Narrows Bridge", and then tell me the 'experts' have
all the data covered.

This was textbook cascade failure. You should see this happen in the lab
sometime in high voltage circuitry-- it's as spectacular as it is
predictable.

The _real_ questions that should be asked is why someone didn't see
this coming. Or why we're probably going to do the same stupid thing
again by rebuilding these phallic symbols even taller next time, just to
prove a point.

Oy.

-Kerry O.

I'm sure the german people had the same disagreement over the reichstag
fire...

Do I believe three buildings all come down like that in the same
afternoon because of jet fuel fire?...nope...

Do I think one of the 15 military exercises being run near that time
could have gone rogue?...yeah ...

Yes Davinci jet fuel burns that hot. I have a propane fired naturally
asparated forge that reaches 2000 degrees F. or a little hotter.
Propane has way less BTU value than jet fuel all that fuel burining up
in the air with the wind blowing into the fire it definately got that
hot. Of course no amount of fact will ever convince the advocates of
the conspriacy thwory. Those are the kind of people that walk around
backwards so no one can sneak up behind them.

DaVinci writes:

" I'm sure the german people had the same disagreement over the
reichstag
fire...

Do I believe three buildings all come down like that in the same
afternoon because of jet fuel fire?...nope...

Do I think one of the 15 military exercises being run near that time
could have gone rogue?...yeah ..."

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and much as I love to
see the Bush administration get nailed to the cross for its stupidity,
I doubt this will be their Waterloo.

This just doesn't wash. There's a perfectly good Occam's Razor, prima
facie case that what happened was as reported and that the Bush
administration acted opportunistically to capitalize on the FUD to
advance its own agenda.

This wasn't a Trojan Horse, it was a gift horse. And they still managed
to make it come up lame. I mean really, Mission Impossible from the
"Mission Accomplished" Duddley Doo-Rights? I don't think so, especially
in this improbable scenario.

-Kerry O.

I agree with this perspective...

and something that for me is also a point is that IF , just IF, the
conspiracy theory were true.....then they would have to be even MORE
audacioulsy STUPID than they are.....


(could be i am blinded by my nature is to find "the horse" in the "horse
****)

i just don't want to believe, that "mature and educated" elected
officials and all that would have to be involved with pulling off a scam
like this could actually sleep with themselves and act on it to this
magnitude.

So indeed for me it is more likely that the trojan horse is the gift
horse...that they lamed....confirming for me that they are too stupid to
have designed the whole plot....BUT THAT IS NOT TO SAY they aren't
guilty of TREASON against the american public and the Constitution, for
their actions in manipulating and exploiting the situation for their own
agendas. Creating the Patriots act and supporting a corrupt justice
system , Initiating an illegal war and effectively bankrupting the
american budget....leaving americans to suffer the degradation of
education & health care, primarily and all the other programs developed
and funded by tax dollars to support community and social services,
for the elderly and the sick and the single heads of household.etc
etc....

as crime flourishes from the poverty created by these cutbacks...and as
american streets fill up with more homeless and more people drugged by
antidepressants, as embarrassment blushes on the face of america as it
receives it's soldiers back from a historical blunder....what is the
climate the consequence of fouling the water so toxically?

whether 9/11 was a conspiracy or not....enough damage has been done in
it's name to make it allready ridiculous and indicative of some very
dirty politics....

i sincerely hope the people will persevere in demanding transparency and
the evidence that is lacking from the gov. agencies responsible for
being forthcoming with such evidence.

this story is not over....

....BUT THAT IS NOT TO SAY they aren't
guilty of TREASON.....for their own agendas.
Patriot act supports our corrupt justice system?
Initiating an illegal war and effectively bankrupting the american
budget? NOT AND NOT AGAIN, BUT NICE TRY TO MAKE YOUR OPINION OUT TO BE
THE FACT WHEN IT IS ANYTHING BUT!!!!!

...leaving americans to suffer the degradation of education & health
care, primarily and all the other programs developed and funded by tax
dollars to support community and social services,for the elderly and the
sick and the single heads of household.etc etc.? ARE YOU SERIOUS? OR are
you being funny? NO CUT BACKS have been made due to this war, welfare
still goes out to the needy and un-needy but receiving anyway.

as crime flourishes from the poverty created by these cutbacks?
REDUNDANT BUT REITERATION IS NEEDED I GUESS, NO CUT BACKS!!!!!...and as
american streets fill up with more homeless and more people drugged by
antidepressants? ARENT YOU AN ADVOCATE OF MEDICATING? BECAUSE OF ALL THE
MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE THIS WAR SUPPOSEDLY HAS CAUSED???? BUT ITS DOES
SOUND GOOD TO SAY IT I GUESS DOESNT IT?? as embarrassment blushes on the
face of america as it receives it's soldiers back from a historical
blunder?? YOUR OPINION, BUT MINE IS THAT IT IS ONE OF HISTORIES BIGGEST
VOUCHERS ON THE ABILITY TO DO THE RIGHT THING UNDER EXTREMELY ADVERSE
CIRCUMSTANCES OF A POLITICALLY CORRECT ENCUMBERING WANT TO BE
SOPHISTICATED SOCIETY....what is the climate the consequence of fouling
the water so toxically?
WTF, DOES THAT MEAN!? NOW WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT SOME FREAKING
FANATICS THINK WHO THEMSELVES CANT TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN AREA IN THE
WORLD, CRYING FOR MONEY AND YELLING AT OTHERS WHO WANT DO THE WORK FOR
THEM. WHATS UP WITH THE MIDDLE EAST- NO ONE KNOWS HOWS TO TAKE
RESPONSIBLITY FOR ANYTHING?

LISTEN we know that you hate whats going on in your area over there, and
hell i dont blame you, i hate it to, but blaming others for the mess
that you people helped freaking create is not gaining you any karma
points with allah, a lie is a lie no matter how much you want it to be
true, dead man walking out the door.

kerri- probably the smartest thing ive seen you say, and most telling;
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and much as I love
tosee the Bush administration get nailed to the cross for its
stupidity,I doubt this will be their Waterloo.

peace ladies

Doc - I can't say I've personally looked into this but I have several
friends who are teachers. They work in 4 different states. We've been
talking again, now that school is out, and what each of them has said
confirms that there have been federal cutbacks that are directly
affecting Schools. I have to say I was surprised as I thought the
individual states provided the fundings, but apparently some federal
funds are routed through the states and they have been cut.

Not only that, but federal fundings for medical research has been cut.
Also, through friends, a few have told me they must now take on a
marketing pr role this summer, in order to solicit those lost funds,
through private sources.

And then there's always this:
Bush has vetoed a VERY important bill that would have broadened
federal funding to it. Stem Cell Research.
"""The use of human embryonic stem cells is controversial because some
people oppose the use of human embryos to get the cells. President
George W. Bush has vetoed legislation in Congress that would broaden
federal funding of such research.""

This bill passed because it was the will of the people. It was voted
on in accordance with the wishes of the constituants of our
representatives. Bush, used/abused his power of veto, based solely on
his PERSONAL BELIEF'S.
Doc - if you do not see the wrong of this, you really are in a place
of isolation. It matters not, what you personally believe about stem
cell research, it was voted on, it was decided and Bush flagged it down.
This bill could have produced a cure for many, within their lifetime,
while they still have time. So close is this research to cures that
federal funding would have allowed many - a great many to live. I know
and love people whose lives have been shortened, whose hopes have been
stripped, because of the beliefs of ONE MAN. That is not what his
power was for.

If this man would do that, what makes it so hard for you to believe that
he would do anything. Maybe he is just stupid, but he's smart enough to
be where his is. Be afraid, doc, be very afraid - for the next 18
months, watch, listen and when the time comes, remember all that has
come to pass. Don't close your mind.

red

vetoeing a bill is not the same thing as cutting its funding for use of
funds on a war. i am not isolated, but i do know that it is the congress
and not the president who is responsible for budgeting the revenue
gained from the tax payers.

i will also do some researching on this and get back with you, but there
are bench marks set forth by congress within spending bills that set
time limits for the funds to be used- no child left behind i believe is
one of those cases where states have had to meet certian criteria within
the first five years before budgeting amendments would take place.

also as you know when the government doesnt INCREASE the amount of money
spent, keeping up with inflation or whatever, then people say it is a
CUT but not really.

i will agree that pork barrell spending on stupid projects has needed to
been cut for along time- but it really hasnt happened either. if any
serious money is getting chopped i would say it has been on the military
side of the house, WHAT?!! what i mean is- the military in the past has
been notorious for spending huge on stuff like aircraft carriers and
subs, helicopters and planes- im sure congress has said, nope to a lot
of that extra crap for now.

as far as the stem cell research funding- the majority of the people, as
you claim did in fact want it, not the over whelming majority tho,
remember that lib's own the congress by a very SLIGHT majority, hardly a
mandate for anything. there has been more out cry from the people over
illegal immigration.

okay red, i will look into just how much the budget has been chopped up
or increased during this war, the only real point i guess is that the
budget isnt centered on this war and to say that it is , is ludicris.

i owe you info- so im off, check back in probably tommorrow.


peace.

d

Red writes:

"his bill passed because it was the will of the people. It was voted
on in accordance with the wishes of the constituants of our
representatives. Bush, used/abused his power of veto, based solely on
his PERSONAL BELIEF'S.
Doc - if you do not see the wrong of this, you really are in a place
of isolation. It matters not, what you personally believe about stem
cell research, it was voted on, it was decided and Bush flagged it down.
This bill could have produced a cure for many, within their lifetime,
while they still have time. So close is this research to cures that
federal funding would have allowed many - a great many to live. I know
and love people whose lives have been shortened, whose hopes have been
stripped, because of the beliefs of ONE MAN. That is not what his
power was for."

Fans of Irony, what more proof do you need that God doesn't play dice
with the Universe-- he plays 'Clue'. While Bush as Colonel Mustard plays
the Champion of the Frozen, his gunboat diplomacy ideology maims and
kills more children each day than any Mad Scientist's wet dream of a
diabolical plot for World Domination.

Inheriting his mother's Beautiful Mind, it's not surprising, I suppose,
that he would remain totally oblivious to this, and his stem cell veto
is just more proof.

I wouldn't worry too much, this is just a minor setback for a juggernaut
that's going to bulldoze this administration's ideological sand castles
into the surf. America is starting to wake up to that fact that this
president is a sock puppet for a plutocracy hiding behind a tapestry of
spin and deception that will only act in their best interests when it
profits them to do so.

This veto is just one more move in that game. Even now, the people doing
this research are working to circumvent this ignorance and render it
moot--and my money is on them. As for the monarchy of 'Colonel Mustard'
and his legions, someone once said: "These are indeed harsh times for
the dim."

-Kerry O.

and harsher times for the self appointed self righteous who believe they
know best for their fellow mans household than he does.

of course the reference to man and he is not meant to be gender
specific.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070623/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq

in case you couldn't read Kerry O's and my opinion were in tandem and in
agreement...


but you just have to go for the throat....
i am so done with you.....

Your right on, as far as Im concerned Kerry-o.
Once again Bush forces his will on us all, because he thinks he knows
better than the majority! What a dangerous man, does he thnk we are
little children that dont know what will hurt us, therefore he thinks he
must save us from ourselves! In the mean time many people die that could
possibly be saved with new research and miracle technology. All because
of what one man feels is morale or immoral. Dangerous, very dangerous!!!

ArmyMedic snipes from hidden cover:

" and harsher times for the self appointed self righteous who believe
they
know best for their fellow mans household than he does.

of course the reference to man and he is not meant to be gender
specific. "

Well and truly spoken from someone who's moral authority extends from
the barrel of a gun.

Just a guess, but I'm betting you haven't had your ideological prostate
gland checked lately, have you? I wasn't going to say anything, but it
appears ::::whisperwhisperwhisper:::, yanno? Especially if you insist on
Richarding your way through today's failed Chenyesque Zeitgeist of The
Surge, Sarge.

HTH.

-Kerry O.

and the truth shall set them free.

moral authority and barrells of guns, you read a few post that ive
written over the past couple of months and think you got me pegged do
you?

how about this for moral freaking authority, integrity.

at the end of the day when you look at yourself in the mirror can you
look upon yourself and know that with no doubts todays you made a
difference, today you did it right, today you were no leach on the backs
of better men.

enjoy your conceit,

Army writes:

and the truth shall set them free.

moral authority and barrells of guns, you read a few post that ive
written over the past couple of months and think you got me pegged do
you?

how about this for moral freaking authority, integrity.

at the end of the day when you look at yourself in the mirror can you
look upon yourself and know that with no doubts todays you made a
difference, today you did it right, today you were no leach on the backs
of better men.

enjoy your conceit, "

You sir, are emminently peggable. You wrap yourself in the flag, in as
many words say "There will be no opinions but my own" and come spoiling
for a fight when we won't bow down and kiss your hinderparts.

It's that self-same lemming mindset that got his country into the Big
Muddy in the first place and the type of bile you spew in defense of it
that keeps the blinders on.

You can't tolerate it? Tough. You want to be like the Black Knight in
the 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail' skit who yells 'Fight coward'
after you've been skewered? Your perogative.

Newsflash: Nobody cares.

"It's a Klingon manhood ritual, young Wesley."

-Kerry O.

the "im the sophisticated part of society and we know everything that is
good for the county and you 'normal people' dont know shlt"

lady it is that mentality from stoopid people like yourself that has
gotten this country in the jacked up state it is in. except some damn
responsibility for your own actions and that of your pretencious
democrat party.

and truthfully i dont care if anyone 'bows' down or not, keep your
paperdoll patriotism i dont want it.

peace

Folks - let's make sure to keep the discussion civil here, or we'll have
to start issuing suspensions.

Remember, you can attack the message, but not the messenger.
Defending yourself is not an excuse. Please re-read the forum rules if
you are not clear about this.

Thanks for your cooperation.