I just hate to see others who know nothing about people except that they are gay judge them..I think it's mean. Growing up around the strict LDS religion and knowing so many who loathed themselves because they were told how bad being gay was. I had a friend right out of high school who killed himself because he was gay and his mormon parents expected him to go on a mission for the church. They had been saving money for it from the time he was 4. It is generally just expected and I knew alot of young people who just didn't want to do it, not just gays....well obviously he couldn't serve if he was gay and he couldn't face telling his father, who was a bishop. So he choose to end his life. It was very sad. He hadn't even had sex at that point..he just knew he was attracted to the other boys and not the girls!

My younger sister is gay and she has been made the shame of the family by my very mormon mother...and many friends that took years to get comfortable with who they are. Gay people are sentient beings just like the rest of us..it's mean what society has done to them and I just abhor mean as much as I do violence.

It's a debate that will never be won nor will it ever end.

I disagree. Essentially, no one seriously debates whether there is a sun god driving a chariot across the sky each day. I think its likely our species will go through a phase in the future in which this whole conversation will seem completely silly and irrelevant to the majority of the people - even if not in our lifetimes.

I disagree. Essentially, no one seriously debates whether there is a sun god driving a chariot across the sky each day. I think its likely our species will go through a phase in the future in which this whole conversation will seem completely silly and irrelevant to the majority of the people - even if not in our lifetimes.

I disagree. Essentially, no one seriously debates whether there is a sun god driving a chariot across the sky each day. I think its likely our species will go through a phase in the future in which this whole conversation will seem completely silly and irrelevant to the majority of the people - even if not in our lifetimes.

The basic thing of this is.......as the family unit goes, so goes society along with it. And.......as sex has been trivialized, casualized, and in general made as no big deal, the family has suffered because of it. I don't think it's any coincidence, that.....since around the time of the sexual revolution, the divorce rate has risen to where it's now at around 50 percent.

In order for a civilization to survive and thrive, there needs to be some absolutes. What we've done in the last 40 years is changed them to where are there really aren't any left anymore, and we're suffering because of it.

In the case of marriage, consider the fact that first off strictly from a heterosexual standpoint, men are taught anymore they don't need the woman for anything beyond sex, while women are taught not to trust men because of how many men treat sex and women in such a casual, objectifying way. In turn......this makes it harder for real relationships to foster, if so many men basically have no need for women outside of getting off, and the women distrust the men, and are even told themselves they don't need them.

Then even the ones that DO get married or involved and have kids, end up doing so for the wrong reasons, and don't have the patience or self control to see things through more often then not, leading to break up after break up, and broken home after broken home. This causes the kids to suffer and sort of be on their own with not a lot of guidance because of the mistakes of their parents.

So already if you want something real it is very hard to find anymore, and when you factor homosexuality into the mix it makes it even harder, as people who otherwise may have been available to you just aren't.

There's a saying, if it isn't broke then don't fix it. The marriage and family system did not need changing, but we have changed it anyway and now we are seeing the consequences of that.

I agree. Enlightenment is bound to happen even with all the roadblocks in it's way.

You are writing like there was no sex outside of marriage before the sexual revolution. Everyone only did it with the person they were with, whether they liked the person or not.

There seems to be an ignoring of prostitutes, mistresses, concubines, escorts, married men and women having sex with others who were not their spouse. Selling their children off to make alliances, dowries, also comes to mind.

Divorce gave the people a chance to stop hiding and putting up with abuse, in various forms or fashion, by being with who they wanted to be with, not with who they were forced to be with. It allowed that all important HONESTY that we as a society are supposed to support.

I know far more gay couples who have been in long-term relationships, and who have a far more solid "foundation" then hetero- couples.

Agreeing here...with you Kendra.

The final comment. ' The marriage system did not need changing"

C'mon, tell that to those who were in marriages before beating your wife and kids was a crime. There was a time when this was a 'private' matter and no one cared. It was rampant in the 70's before the laws said you can't beat your wife and kids any more.
So yes, there were needed changes.

"The marriage system did not need changing"

C'mon, tell that to those who were in marriages before beating your wife and kids was a crime. There was a time when this was a 'private' matter and no one cared. It was rampant in the 70's before the laws said you can't beat your wife and kids any more.
So yes, there were needed changes.

[it's] shocking... that anyone would need to be told specifically that it applied to their spouse as well

,,but people were still arrested when they abused their spouse so it was not an ACCEPTABLE part of marriage

Well, I'm glad we agree.





You are really reaching here, to defend the institution of marriage - for the sake of defending it.

It absolutely was accepted that domestic abuse issues were private matters - not matters for outside legal intervention - for large sections (subcultures) of the US, for a good deal of our history. It still is seen that way by many.

Few years ago I saw a mexican guy beating a woman who turned out to be his ex-wife, in public. When I moved to intervene, I was assaulted by the assailant's cousins. dDring the struggle, I criticized them for contributing to the abuse, and they seriously self righteously criticized me for interfering with a family matter.

The laws about assault and battery DIDN'T apply to your wife and children. They simply were 'private' matters. In some cultures honor and respect involved the slap in the face, or the kick or in extreme cases the beating. There are still cultures where if a woman 'talks back' to her husband she is disrespecting him..so for the sake of honor he HAS to slap her.
Not putting your hands on another shouldn't have to be spelled out at all..in my opinion. For many apparently it does. Why do you think there are so many laws protecting children now. Those like yourself who still believe it's acceptable to hit, spank, (whatever you want to call it) your children don't see anything wrong with that either. It was how your parents did it and how you choose to do it. Yet there are entire movements that have repeatedly said ..don't hit your children.
Marriage had to and still need to be redefined, the old ways don't serve us anymore.

but where is this 'definition' that needs changing,,,I think individuals will always make bad choices and even awful choices in their relationships,, I dont think it means that the basic premise
of having a relationship or a marriage needs to change,,,

This.

People are gonna mess up, that's a fact of life, and a fact of being human. None of us, are without sin. BUT, that is not the fault of the institution of marriage. You cannot blame that for the mistakes of man. Marriage was created and meant to be a beautiful, wonderful and joyous thing. Just because some people screw up, doesn't mean that that still isn't true.