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| Topic: Meaning in a godless universe | |
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I've got a question to any athiests(naturalists) who are interested. (And yes, not all athiests are naturalists). I should note first of all that I am genuinely curious here. So:
If there is no god or gods and only what can be proved scientifically is true then where does meaning and purpose for human life come from? Sure, we can invent meaning for ourselves but isn't that basically self delusion? The very same criticism leveled at theists? The only purpose I can see from a naturalists worldview is that we must make a baby and raise it is able to make babies itself... and then we die. Is that really all our lives mean? Or is there more? Discuss |
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Edited by
amaraii
on
Fri 07/22/11 07:23 AM
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What do you mean there is no god? Perhaps not the "God" that we as humans have invented, with all the rules and regulations and customs, but some power that is greater than we are, because whether you believe in a god or not, do you not, when you are at your most desperate pray to god.
And that is something we do instinctively. |
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Of course you can believe in a 'greater power' which some people call god without actually following a set religion. But for naturalists, there is no 'greater power' or any supernatural force, there is only matter.
And prayer is not instinctive to everyone, the majority maybe, but not everyone. |
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I've got a question to any athiests(naturalists) who are interested. (And yes, not all athiests are naturalists). I should note first of all that I am genuinely curious here. So: If there is no god or gods and only what can be proved scientifically is true then where does meaning and purpose for human life come from? Sure, we can invent meaning for ourselves but isn't that basically self delusion? The very same criticism leveled at theists? The only purpose I can see from a naturalists worldview is that we must make a baby and raise it is able to make babies itself... and then we die. Is that really all our lives mean? Or is there more? Discuss IF we accept that conception - godless universe and only pure scientifically explanation of it incl. the humans, then logical comes the idea that there is no purpose or meaning of our life but pure random case which is based on the unique combination of elements with the only purpose keeping and saving that balance . Eh but till now there is no science which can explain the very beginning of Big Bang /the moment before to start the process aka Big Bang/ |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Fri 07/22/11 09:44 AM
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I've got a question to any athiests(naturalists) who are interested. (And yes, not all athiests are naturalists). I should note first of all that I am genuinely curious here. So: If there is no god or gods and only what can be proved scientifically is true then where does meaning and purpose for human life come from? Sure, we can invent meaning for ourselves but isn't that basically self delusion? The very same criticism leveled at theists? The only purpose I can see from a naturalists worldview is that we must make a baby and raise it is able to make babies itself... and then we die. Is that really all our lives mean? Or is there more? Discuss For me this is a moot question. To begin with, in what way would the existence of a God make life meaningful? Let's look at this in detail. As far as I can see there are only a few reasons, all of which seem rather weak. Everlasting Life First possible reason is the concept of "eternal life". If there exists a God then life is eternal (at least for those that this God approves of) So should that make life more "meaningful"? Well, I say no. If LIFE is not already meaningful to you in a state where you will eventually die, then why should it suddenly become "meaningful" to you if you thought you were going to live for all of eternity? In other words. Either LIFE is meaningful or it isn't. How long it lasts should have absolutely no bearing on that. So a concept of everlasting life cannot GIVE life meaning. All it could possibly do is extend the length of life which must already be meaningful. So everlasting life cannot GIVE life meaning. Approval Some people feel that their life is 'meaningless' unless someone eternal to them approves of them. So people who think like this could potentially see a God as the ultimate source of "approval". However, that wouldn't truly be necessary to give life meaning. There are many other mortal humans around who can serve to give someone "approval" So if "approval" equates to "meaning" then meaning can indeed be found in a godless universe. Just recognizing the approval of other mortal humans should be sufficient. Eternal Gift of Paradise Actually if an eternal gift of paradise is what gives LIFE meaning, then doesn't that actually say that LIFE itself doesn't have much meaning as it is? Moreover, that would also suggest that the only "meaningful" life is a life of paradise. I'm not sure if that has merit. A life of total paradise where nothing ever goes wrong could potentially be extremely boring to the point where it actually becomes meaningless. So I'm not convinced that the ideal of an eternal paradise can even truly serve as a basis for 'meaning' in life. LOVE? Does love give life meaning? If it does, then life can certainly have meaning without the need for any God because humans are capable of experiencing and sharing love on their own. Eternal Damnation? Would the idea that to fail to appease a God's desires lead to eternal damnation give life "meaning"? This idea certainly doesn't do anything for me, perhaps it works for someone else? ~~~~~ I think a person would truly be hard-pressed to explain why the notion of a God should somehow give meaning to a life that would otherwise supposedly have no meaning. Can anyone explain their views on that one? |
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I've got a question to any athiests(naturalists) who are interested. (And yes, not all athiests are naturalists). I should note first of all that I am genuinely curious here. So: If there is no god or gods and only what can be proved scientifically is true then where does meaning and purpose for human life come from? Sure, we can invent meaning for ourselves but isn't that basically self delusion? The very same criticism leveled at theists? The only purpose I can see from a naturalists worldview is that we must make a baby and raise it is able to make babies itself... and then we die. Is that really all our lives mean? Or is there more? Discuss For me this is a moot question. To begin with, in what way would the existence of a God make life meaningful? Let's look at this in detail. As far as I can see there are only a few reasons, all of which seem rather weak. Everlasting Life First possible reason is the concept of "eternal life". If there exists a God then life is eternal (at least for those that this God approves of) So should that make life more "meaningful"? Well, I say no. If LIFE is not already meaningful to you in a state where you will eventually die, then why should it suddenly become "meaningful" to you if you thought you were going to live for all of eternity? In other words. Either LIFE is meaningful or it isn't. How long it lasts should have absolutely no bearing on that. So a concept of everlasting life cannot GIVE life meaning. All it could possibly do is extend the length of life which must already be meaningful. So everlasting life cannot GIVE life meaning. Approval Some people feel that their life is 'meaningless' unless someone eternal to them approves of them. So people who think like this could potentially see a God as the ultimate source of "approval". However, that wouldn't truly be necessary to give life meaning. There are many other mortal humans around who can serve to give someone "approval" So if "approval" equates to "meaning" then meaning can indeed be found in a godless universe. Just recognizing the approval of other mortal humans should be sufficient. Eternal Gift of Paradise Actually if an eternal gift of paradise is what gives LIFE meaning, then doesn't that actually say that LIFE itself doesn't have much meaning as it is? Moreover, that would also suggest that the only "meaningful" life is a life of paradise. I'm not sure if that has merit. A life of total paradise where nothing ever goes wrong could potentially be extremely boring to the point where it actually becomes meaningless. So I'm not convinced that the ideal of an eternal paradise can even truly serve as a basis for 'meaning' in life. LOVE? Does love give life meaning? If it does, then life can certainly have meaning without the need for any God because humans are capable of experiencing and sharing love on their own. Eternal Damnation? Would the idea that to fail to appease a God's desires lead to eternal damnation give life "meaning"? This idea certainly doesn't do anything for me, perhaps it works for someone else? ~~~~~ I think a person would truly be hard-pressed to explain why the notion of a God should somehow give meaning to a life that would otherwise supposedly have no meaning. Can anyone explain their views on that one? Exactly. People who believe in God(s) are believing in an assumption one exists, yet they still carry on with their lives with this assumption. If one believe in good moral only because it pleases their God, then they are not doing it just because they feel it is helping fellow man. I don't believe in any higher power, because then that would also would beg to many questions of the origin of that high power, what made the high power and what create that higher power? And so fourth. Most people who was once indoctrinated to a certainty of believing their is a God and now became a non-believer might still have to program notion of prayer, only because it is so embedded in you it's almost synonymous when a smoker quits, but might have something in his/her mouth as a cigarette - sometimes you cannot discard what you use to adhere to immediately it takes time. |
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The reason a creater god/gods/force gives exsistance meaning is simple; life was created by an intelligent being (assuming of course the god in question is intelligent). If we were created in such a way then it shows a level of design, thus purpose. Though this doesnt tell what the meaning or purpose is however. (And no, I do not follow creationism. I have no problem with scientific claims or theories.)
But how would a naturalist universe give us meaning? Unless its meaning of our own design in which case, why not god/gods etc? |
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The reason a creater god/gods/force gives exsistance meaning is simple; life was created by an intelligent being (assuming of course the god in question is intelligent). If we were created in such a way then it shows a level of design, thus purpose. Though this doesnt tell what the meaning or purpose is however. (And no, I do not follow creationism. I have no problem with scientific claims or theories.) But how would a naturalist universe give us meaning? Unless its meaning of our own design in which case, why not god/gods etc? Well I think you answered your own question right here. But how would a naturalist universe give us meaning? Unless its meaning of our own design in which case, why not god/gods etc? Why would the purpose of an external being any more meaningful than any purpose that you might assign to life? Moreover if you don't even know what that purpose is then how could that make your life any more meaningful? It seems to me that all you are basically is saying is that as far as you can see there is no obvious purpose to life. Therefore if life is to have meaning, there must exist some purpose that is not readily apparent. So in a sense all you are truly saying is that, life as we know it, is indeed meaningless to you unless there is something MORE that you aren't aware of. Seems to me that this is all you are saying. From your perspective you cannot find any apparent meaning in life. Therefore you conclude that if it is to have meaning there must be something missing and you fill in that gap by imagining a God that can provide a meaning that you cannot see in life itself. In short, you are indeed proclaiming life to be meaningless if there is no God that can offer something MORE. Something MORE that you even confess that you don't have a clue what that might be. But obviously something MORE is required because you are not finding life itself to be meaningful. I still hold that if people are hoping for eternal life, they really need to find meaning in this life FIRST. What would be the point in extending a meaningless life on for eternity? Life has to be meaningful before it can be worth extending on indefinitely. ~~~~~ How would you pray to this God? Dear God, thank you for this meaningless life. I look forward to the day when you do something different to make it meaningful. I mean really?  |
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I've got a question to any athiests(naturalists) who are interested. (And yes, not all athiests are naturalists). I should note first of all that I am genuinely curious here. So: If there is no god or gods and only what can be proved scientifically is true then where does meaning and purpose for human life come from? Sure, we can invent meaning for ourselves but isn't that basically self delusion? The very same criticism leveled at theists? The only purpose I can see from a naturalists worldview is that we must make a baby and raise it is able to make babies itself... and then we die. Is that really all our lives mean? Or is there more? Discuss Although being told to discuss makes me not want to post, I will anyway. Isn't man or men or humans whichever you want to call us assuming too much to assume that they have a more divine purpose then the other living creatures on this planet? What is their life purpose? You live this life to the best of your ability and try to make a difference with your fellow beings to the positive and then you die as all other life probably in the universe does. Lights out. So make it a good one while your here. |
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I've got a question to any athiests(naturalists) who are interested. (And yes, not all athiests are naturalists). I should note first of all that I am genuinely curious here. So: If there is no god or gods and only what can be proved scientifically is true then where does meaning and purpose for human life come from? Sure, we can invent meaning for ourselves but isn't that basically self delusion? The very same criticism leveled at theists? The only purpose I can see from a naturalists worldview is that we must make a baby and raise it is able to make babies itself... and then we die. Is that really all our lives mean? Or is there more? Humanity, for better or for worse, is its own alpha and omega. That is the birthright of sentience and self-awareness, even though at times it can be a curse, too. It's up to each individual, acting singularly or collectively as a society, to give meaning to existence through acts, deeds and gifts to their descendents and culture. THAT is how we survive death--we read and write the passage of those once alive into the racial memory by their strivings, achievements and their love of those who come after. No God needed. -Kerry O. |
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I've got a question to any athiests(naturalists) who are interested. (And yes, not all athiests are naturalists). I should note first of all that I am genuinely curious here. So: If there is no god or gods and only what can be proved scientifically is true then where does meaning and purpose for human life come from? Sure, we can invent meaning for ourselves but isn't that basically self delusion? The very same criticism leveled at theists? The only purpose I can see from a naturalists worldview is that we must make a baby and raise it is able to make babies itself... and then we die. Is that really all our lives mean? Or is there more? Humanity, for better or for worse, is its own alpha and omega. That is the birthright of sentience and self-awareness, even though at times it can be a curse, too. It's up to each individual, acting singularly or collectively as a society, to give meaning to existence through acts, deeds and gifts to their descendents and culture. THAT is how we survive death--we read and write the passage of those once alive into the racial memory by their strivings, achievements and their love of those who come after. No God needed. -Kerry O. Quite elegantly put.  Moreover, if we needed a "God" in order for us to have "meaning" then why would the buck stop there? Wouldn't that same ideology extend to the God itself? What would give God meaning if God itself did not also have a God above it to give it meaning? How far would we need to pass the buck before some upper most turtle finally takes a stand and says, "I'll give life meaning without a God above me!" The buck would have to stop somewhere. |
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Although being told to discuss makes me not want to post, I will anyway. Isn't man or men or humans whichever you want to call us assuming too much to assume that they have a more divine purpose then the other living creatures on this planet? What is their life purpose? You live this life to the best of your ability and try to make a difference with your fellow beings to the positive and then you die as all other life probably in the universe does. Lights out. So make it a good one while your here. Humanity, for better or for worse, is its own alpha and omega. That is the birthright of sentience and self-awareness, even though at times it can be a curse, too. It's up to each individual, acting singularly or collectively as a society, to give meaning to existence through acts, deeds and gifts to their descendents and culture. THAT is how we survive death--we read and write the passage of those once alive into the racial memory by their strivings, achievements and their love of those who come after. No God needed. -Kerry O. This is pretty much how I see it. |
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Well you can bank on this. Something created this.
We wake up every day as a part of something and go to sleep every day in that same something. It had to start somehow. On any level that would be called a creator. |
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Well you can bank on this. Something created this. We wake up every day as a part of something and go to sleep every day in that same something. It had to start somehow. On any level that would be called a creator. Perhaps so. But in terms of meaning how would that play into the picture? If a creator is required for meaning then what would give meaning to the creator unless the creator also had a creator, and so on, ad infinitum. If "it had to start somewhere", then wouldn't this also hold true for the creator itself? |
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Edited by
mg1959
on
Sat 07/23/11 12:01 PM
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Well you can bank on this. Something created this. We wake up every day as a part of something and go to sleep every day in that same something. It had to start somehow. On any level that would be called a creator. Perhaps so. But in terms of meaning how would that play into the picture? If a creator is required for meaning then what would give meaning to the creator unless the creator also had a creator, and so on, ad infinitum. If "it had to start somewhere", then wouldn't this also hold true for the creator itself? I'll save that question for the creator. Can't answer for God. Personally though if I were to guess, God always was, as something would have had to have been in the position of "always was" to give birth to the rest. BTW did you create everything? I know I didn't. That leaves us out as God/Creator. Oh I might also add there would only be one Creator (singlar or plural) because the following would be creations. So there would be no "to the creator unless the creator also had a creator, If "it had to start somewhere", then wouldn't this also hold true for the creator itself?" |
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IF we didnt have a creator. I Think we would be equal to all animals and plants with no purpose BUT survival.
IF we do have a creator, but choose to erase his significance from our life,,,than we become our own God and our purpose is self fulfillment/achievement,,, |
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IF we didnt have a creator. I Think we would be equal to all animals and plants with no purpose BUT survival. So you're saying that plants and animals don't have a creator? |
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of course they do, a creator who designed them to have a place in the universe
without that intelligent design giving US our place, our place would be the same accident that animals and plants are and our purpose most likely similarly to merely survive |
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BTW did you create everything? I know I didn't. That leaves us out as God/Creator. Do you know the true nature of your existence without question? If not, then how can you know that you didn't create everything? What makes you think that you are separate from anything else? Can you point to anything about your existence that isn't common to everything else in the universe? If you cannot, then why would you think that you are separate from God? Where do you cease to exist, and where does this supposed God begin? If you can exist separate from God wouldn't that make you a God in your own right? On the other hand if you can't exist separate from God then in what way could you claim to be separate from God? Until you can answer all of these questions without ambiguity, and with absolute certainty and clarity, then how can you claim to know that you didn't create everything and that you are not the foundation of all that exists? |
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BTW did you create everything? I know I didn't. That leaves us out as God/Creator. Do you know the true nature of your existence without question? If not, then how can you know that you didn't create everything? What makes you think that you are separate from anything else? Can you point to anything about your existence that isn't common to everything else in the universe? If you cannot, then why would you think that you are separate from God? Where do you cease to exist, and where does this supposed God begin? If you can exist separate from God wouldn't that make you a God in your own right? On the other hand if you can't exist separate from God then in what way could you claim to be separate from God? Until you can answer all of these questions without ambiguity, and with absolute certainty and clarity, then how can you claim to know that you didn't create everything and that you are not the foundation of all that exists? I see a lot of questions but I didn't see your answer. |
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