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Topic: Long skeptic in the room
no photo
Tue 01/10/12 09:10 AM
So yes, you can assume, if you chose, that other people are "real." You can assume it and you can decide that they are real. Most reasonable people will agree with that. It saves a lot of time. But can you prove it?

You could also assume that the people in your dreams are real if you want to. But since they disappear when you wake up and everyone agrees that they are "not real" you probably agree with them. But..

If you were in a coma and having an extended dream, and you were convinced your dream was reality, how would you prove to the other people -in the dream- that things were real? What would be the point of doing that anyway?

I know, things like that tend to frustrate scientist who insist they know what is real and what is not real. They, after all, are the experts on that.

This reality is like a bubble where (most) everyone agrees on what is real and what belongs here. If it cannot be verified and agreed upon and tested within the scientific method and boundaries within this bubble, then it is deemed "unreal" or given a name like "dream" "hallucination" or "paranormal experience," or any other name because it is outside of the bubble we call reality.

(The biggest game players in the world will angrily insist and proclaim that "this is not a game!")

It is the job of scientists to decide what is real and what is not real and then convince everyone else to agree.

That's an important job.












no photo
Tue 01/10/12 09:27 AM
Spider and JB,

I'm pretty sure that eating the wrong kinds of carbs and/or fats will trump the regulation of the ratios of the two categories.

Eating a low carb, high easy-cheese diet doesn't sound so good to me, nor low fat high Froot Loop diet.

A diet reasonably low in carbs and high in nuts/avocados doesn't seem so bad, while a low in fat and high a diversity of fresh fruits sounds pretty damn good.





no photo
Tue 01/10/12 09:33 AM

Not many doctors think that what you eat, what you drink, what you do and think have anything to do with your health.


In my experience, these are older doctors who haven't bothered keeping up with science.





I have the opposite experience. The older doctors are not so quick to prescribe drugs.

Your second sentence does not indicate you have the opposite experience, because I was speaking of the importance of lifestyle, not the value of drugs. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree with you that younger doctors seem to be more brainwashed by the pharmaceutical industry, but they are also more generally aware of the scientific validity of diet/exercise/attitude as a means of influencing a disease processes.




The young ones fresh out of college are glorified drug pushers.

That's a generalization of course.

I have a great doctor who can manipulate my neck and back. He is not a chiropractor but something else. He is an older guy and he is a medical doctor.


He sounds like an osteopath.

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 09:39 AM

She was given two weeks to live by a medical doctor! She was weak, on heavy drugs, bald from Kemo etc. ...
If her survival was due to anything beside Laetrile and or vitamins, it was due to a complete diet and lifestyle change.



Statistically speaking, chemotherapy is a good idea. This doesn't mean that its guaranteed to be a good idea for each person who undergoes the treatment. Its possible that ceasing the doctors treatment contributed to her getting better.


no photo
Tue 01/10/12 10:14 AM

Spider and JB,

I'm pretty sure that eating the wrong kinds of carbs and/or fats will trump the regulation of the ratios of the two categories.

Eating a low carb, high easy-cheese diet doesn't sound so good to me, nor low fat high Froot Loop diet.

A diet reasonably low in carbs and high in nuts/avocados doesn't seem so bad, while a low in fat and high a diversity of fresh fruits sounds pretty damn good.




Like I said, a healthy balanced diet.

Its a no brainer.

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 10:19 AM


She was given two weeks to live by a medical doctor! She was weak, on heavy drugs, bald from Kemo etc. ...
If her survival was due to anything beside Laetrile and or vitamins, it was due to a complete diet and lifestyle change.



Statistically speaking, chemotherapy is a good idea. This doesn't mean that its guaranteed to be a good idea for each person who undergoes the treatment. Its possible that ceasing the doctors treatment contributed to her getting better.




Yes I would agree.

I have heard that using chemotherapy is like dropping a bomb on a city to kill a few terrorists.

Chemotherapy kills good cells as well as bad cells.

The chemotherapy she had been getting was doing nothing to reduce her tumor size. HOWEVER when she went to Old Mexico (a third world country by the way) and got treatment, her tumor reduced in size enormously. They did not treat her with chemotherapy, even though they do use it sometimes down there.

So what does this backwards third world country know that we don't know? Probably nothing. That means that our country has no intentions of being successful in treating cancer... or else they just don't know enough to be successful. All that money people donate to the American Cancer Society... billions of dollars... what the hell are they using that for?

People need to wake the hell up.

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 10:21 AM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Tue 01/10/12 10:38 AM



The young ones fresh out of college are glorified drug pushers.

That's a generalization of course.

I have a great doctor who can manipulate my neck and back. He is not a chiropractor but something else. He is an older guy and he is a medical doctor.


He sounds like an osteopath.



Yes, that's it! He is wonderful.

Optomistic69's photo
Tue 01/10/12 10:26 AM
Not entering the debate.. just curious about this article.

It sounds almost too good to be true: a cheap and simple drug that kills almost all cancers by switching off their "immortality". The drug, dichloroacetate (DCA), has already been used for years to treat rare metabolic disorders and so is known to be relatively safe.

It also has no patent, meaning it could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost of newly developed drugs.

http://bit.ly/4Bz2uV


no photo
Tue 01/10/12 10:43 AM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Tue 01/10/12 10:44 AM



So don't tell me that America knows enough about cancer to treat it. In general, they don't. Laetrile is illegal. Vitamin therapy is illegal. That is ridiculous.


I agree with that, people should be able to do whatever they want to treat their diseases.

But Laetrile is snake oil and vitamin therapy probably doesn't do much. I'll bet your aunt's recovery was due more to the placebo effect than anything else.


Placebo effect? You are out of your mind.laugh She was given two weeks to live by a medical doctor! She was weak, on heavy drugs, bald from Kemo etc. No placebo is going to give her six more years and cause her hair to grow back. Ridiculous. I can't believe you even said that.

If her survival was due to anything beside Laetrile and or vitamins, it was due to a complete diet and lifestyle change.




Spider,

To add to your statement that Laetrile is "snake oil".... why would you say such a thing? What do you have that backs that up?

Also, did you know that Laetrile is a vitamin?

To say that vitamin therapy doesn't do much is pure ignorance.

Take away vitamins, take them out of our diets and out of our foods and you will see people dying all over the place.

Lack of the proper nutrients will cause disease and death. That's a fact.




no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:22 AM

Spider and JB,

I'm pretty sure that eating the wrong kinds of carbs and/or fats will trump the regulation of the ratios of the two categories.

Eating a low carb, high easy-cheese diet doesn't sound so good to me, nor low fat high Froot Loop diet.

A diet reasonably low in carbs and high in nuts/avocados doesn't seem so bad, while a low in fat and high a diversity of fresh fruits sounds pretty damn good.


Okay, I'll explain it to you.

Cancer cells get their energy from sugar. JUST FROM SUGAR. Almost every healthy cell in your body can live off sugar OR energy generated from fat (ketones). So if you don't eat carbs or sugar, you starve the cancer, while your healthy cells live off the ketones your body produces.

Fruit are high in sugar. So fruit feeds cancer.

Your body NEEDS fat. So a low fat diet is bad for you. Your liver makes the majority of the cholesterol in your body. Without animal fats, your liver is forced to made the Pattern B (bad for you) LDL cholesterol. So you NEED animal fats. You can live without them, but you won't be as healthy as you would be if you consumed animal fats. Modern literature on the subject suggests that 78% YES SEVENTY EIGHT PERCENT of your calories should come from FAT. Fat is neutral to blood sugar. Carbs spike blood sugar, which causes your pancreas to release insulin. So does protein, but protein also spikes glucogone, which is the opposite of insulin. Insulin and glucogone cancel each other out.

Here's what you need to grasp: If you aren't eating carbs or sugars (which are just simple carbs), YOU CANNOT GAIN WEIGHT. Insulin is the hormone that commands fat cells to store fat. If you aren't telling your fat cells to store fat, then they won't.

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:25 AM



So don't tell me that America knows enough about cancer to treat it. In general, they don't. Laetrile is illegal. Vitamin therapy is illegal. That is ridiculous.


I agree with that, people should be able to do whatever they want to treat their diseases.

But Laetrile is snake oil and vitamin therapy probably doesn't do much. I'll bet your aunt's recovery was due more to the placebo effect than anything else.


Placebo effect? You are out of your mind.laugh She was given two weeks to live by a medical doctor! She was weak, on heavy drugs, bald from Kemo etc. No placebo is going to give her six more years and cause her hair to grow back. Ridiculous. I can't believe you even said that.

If her survival was due to anything beside Laetrile and or vitamins, it was due to a complete diet and lifestyle change.




The mother of a friend of mine was in the same position. Then doctors sent her home to die, SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS CURED. She got better and is still alive over 10 years later. Without snake oil. Good old placebo effect, which has been shown to actually cure some people.

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:26 AM

Lets summarize the arguments against skepticism.

--We cant know other people exist. (laughable, silly, really should make us all laugh to hear this used as an argument against skeptical inquiry)To pursue knowledge at all one must make this assumption, it is the foundation of all philosophy.

--We should treat all claims equally. Yea that makes sense lets treat the invisible dragon in my garage the same as the keys in my pocket claim. We would have to treat the claim that your husband cheated on you with the neighbor, vs your husband cheated on you with the ghost of Elvis equally.

--Science/Scientists have been wrong before. This is true, however that the people who work toward understanding are wrong at times, even spectacularly so is not an argument against skepticism, but for it.

As much as it stokes the various ego's to try to catch me in a gotcha moment, or attempt to cherry pick and straw man the basic premise of skepticism, the reality is that there is no reasonable argument against it.

That the default position for each person even those so riled against me and my stance are themselves skeptical AND is clearly true from there own behaviors.

No one rationally assumes they have won the lottery just becuase they bought a ticket, we check, no one rationally assumes the random performer dressed like Elvis is actually Elvis. No one rationally assumes that the email saying the Nigerian prince wants to give you a % of his fortune for cashing his checks is legit? No one rationally jumps out of his window becuase he doesn't know he cant fly. (examples vary by education, and general gullibility, the tenor remains unchanged)

Why becuase dependent on the scenario and the persons life experience/and or knowledge they know to be skeptical of most if not all things which can be unknowable without checking into it. Checking is the default in almost every thing we cant know without checking.

This same reason is why when I was faced with assuming I saw the future, or assuming my memory was playing tricks on me I either withhold judgment and collect facts(check), or go with the simpler solution . . . my memory/perception was playing tricks on me.

It is only when bias creeps in that we start to make wild assumptions, and stop checking things which are extraordinary and which can be more easily explained with less fantastic conclusions.

Perhaps it is not as much fun to think a little swamp gas is ionized that caused that light in the sky vs aliens, or perhaps it isn't as exciting to imagine you are being invisibly restrained by aliens when you are in the grips of a sleep paralysis. Perhaps you wont get as much sympathy, or as much attention. However, once you dedicate yourself to truth and knowledge you want to find the ACTUAL truth, not just what is fun exciting, or that which you want to believe, or that which comforts you, or makes you feel special.

You learn to remain neutral to things that can be tested, up until they have been tested and the results replicated without being falsified. You learn methods for removing bias. You learn logic, and fallacy to spot it when you see it. You learn how to investigate premise, and link to conclusion. You understand that many people in the room have not spent so much time in these endeavors and will likely see you as strange for caring at all about the Holocaust denier, or the AIDS denier, or the Cancer research Denier, or the homeopath, or the Anti-Vaccine loon.

Well, I get worked up becuase I have spent that time, I have worked with professionals in the field who are studying some of these things, I have spoke with some of the true heroes of our generation who honestly work to unravel these mysteries, and it physically pains me to imagine the kinds of mental roadblocks that are setup to allow such denial-ism, or that allow so much pseudo scientific ideas to permeate our society and for reasons so banal.

I see this as one of the greatest causes, the cause of truth over rhetoric, the cause of knowledge over lies and make believe.





no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:29 AM




So don't tell me that America knows enough about cancer to treat it. In general, they don't. Laetrile is illegal. Vitamin therapy is illegal. That is ridiculous.


I agree with that, people should be able to do whatever they want to treat their diseases.

But Laetrile is snake oil and vitamin therapy probably doesn't do much. I'll bet your aunt's recovery was due more to the placebo effect than anything else.


Placebo effect? You are out of your mind.laugh She was given two weeks to live by a medical doctor! She was weak, on heavy drugs, bald from Kemo etc. No placebo is going to give her six more years and cause her hair to grow back. Ridiculous. I can't believe you even said that.

If her survival was due to anything beside Laetrile and or vitamins, it was due to a complete diet and lifestyle change.




The mother of a friend of mine was in the same position. Then doctors sent her home to die, SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS CURED. She got better and is still alive over 10 years later. Without snake oil. Good old placebo effect, which has been shown to actually cure some people.


laugh laugh

More likely, she got better because her body knew better how to cure itself than the doctors did who were bombing her with chemotherapy and drugs.

And yes, just believing she was cured helped. Belief is a very powerful thing!


no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:35 AM

Like I said, a healthy balanced diet.

Its a no brainer.


Did your ancestors eat a "healthy balanced diet"?

They ate a small amount of nuts and vegetables, eggs when they could get them and lots of fatty meat.

A healthy diet for humans would property match what humans ate before the invention of large scale farming, you don't need grains or potatoes or sugar to be healthy.

Instead of a "healthy balanced diet", try a diet comprised of nutrient rich foods. Eggs, meats, nuts, plenty of non-starchy vegetables and berries. I'm sure you've heard all of the terrible things about butter, here are two really good things: The types of fat in butter have been shown to PREVENT heart disease and butter is rich in vitamins. Margarine has NO NUTRITIONAL VALUE.

You have Netflix, check out "Fathead". There is a lot of good history on nutrition and information on the types of foods that are best for humans.

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:38 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 01/10/12 11:42 AM
Yes I would agree.

I have heard that using chemotherapy is like dropping a bomb on a city to kill a few terrorists.

Chemotherapy kills good cells as well as bad cells.

The chemotherapy she had been getting was doing nothing to reduce her tumor size. HOWEVER when she went to Old Mexico (a third world country by the way) and got treatment, her tumor reduced in size enormously. They did not treat her with chemotherapy, even though they do use it sometimes down there.

So what does this backwards third world country know that we don't know? Probably nothing. That means that our country has no intentions of being successful in treating cancer... or else they just don't know enough to be successful. All that money people donate to the American Cancer Society... billions of dollars... what the hell are they using that for?

People need to wake the hell up.


Ok let me get this clear, you take an anecdotal account, you have a spontaneous regression, clearly dont know why, and now all of a sudden becuase you think the doctors didn't know either that necessarily means this is all a giant conspiracy to make money and keep people sick.

And you think we need to wake up. You think this conclusion you have reached is rational and well reasoned?




Not entering the debate.. just curious about this article.

It sounds almost too good to be true: a cheap and simple drug that kills almost all cancers by switching off their "immortality". The drug, dichloroacetate (DCA), has already been used for years to treat rare metabolic disorders and so is known to be relatively safe.

It also has no patent, meaning it could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost of newly developed drugs.

http://bit.ly/4Bz2uV




http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/05/dichloroacetate_dca_and_cancer_deja_vu_a.php


Food for thought.

Good old placebo effect, which has been shown to actually cure some people.
This shows a lack of understanding what a placebo effect actually is.

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:41 AM


Spider and JB,

I'm pretty sure that eating the wrong kinds of carbs and/or fats will trump the regulation of the ratios of the two categories.

Eating a low carb, high easy-cheese diet doesn't sound so good to me, nor low fat high Froot Loop diet.

A diet reasonably low in carbs and high in nuts/avocados doesn't seem so bad, while a low in fat and high a diversity of fresh fruits sounds pretty damn good.


Okay, I'll explain it to you.

Cancer cells get their energy from sugar. JUST FROM SUGAR. Almost every healthy cell in your body can live off sugar OR energy generated from fat (ketones). So if you don't eat carbs or sugar, you starve the cancer, while your healthy cells live off the ketones your body produces.

Fruit are high in sugar. So fruit feeds cancer.

Your body NEEDS fat. So a low fat diet is bad for you. Your liver makes the majority of the cholesterol in your body. Without animal fats, your liver is forced to made the Pattern B (bad for you) LDL cholesterol. So you NEED animal fats. You can live without them, but you won't be as healthy as you would be if you consumed animal fats. Modern literature on the subject suggests that 78% YES SEVENTY EIGHT PERCENT of your calories should come from FAT. Fat is neutral to blood sugar. Carbs spike blood sugar, which causes your pancreas to release insulin. So does protein, but protein also spikes glucogone, which is the opposite of insulin. Insulin and glucogone cancel each other out.


That is why when I eat an apple, I eat it with protein, like peanut butter.




Here's what you need to grasp: If you aren't eating carbs or sugars (which are just simple carbs), YOU CANNOT GAIN WEIGHT. Insulin is the hormone that commands fat cells to store fat. If you aren't telling your fat cells to store fat, then they won't.


Carbs are also vegetables and fruits. The great apes only eat vegetables and fruits and they gain weight. Cows are not meat eaters, and they gain weight. So your statement that if you don't eat carbs you can't gain weight is not true.

In fact, raw vegetables burn more calories being digested than they give the body in return. That is why the Dolly Parton soup will cause you to loose weight the more of it you eat.

A balanced diet is the best. Your body needs carbs for energy. You can live on ketones but you still need carbs or you will find yourself dragging around with no energy because it takes too long to digest the ketones.

So, do whatever works for you. Low carb, high fat did not work for me at all.


no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:42 AM

So what does this backwards third world country know that we don't know? Probably nothing. That means that our country has no intentions of being successful in treating cancer... or else they just don't know enough to be successful. All that money people donate to the American Cancer Society... billions of dollars... what the hell are they using that for?

People need to wake the hell up.


The Government outlawed the snake oils, not the drug companies. The Government shouldn't stand between the doctor and the patient, period. Let the doctor give the treatment the patient wants and everyone can live by the motto "buyer beware".

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:46 AM


So what does this backwards third world country know that we don't know? Probably nothing. That means that our country has no intentions of being successful in treating cancer... or else they just don't know enough to be successful. All that money people donate to the American Cancer Society... billions of dollars... what the hell are they using that for?

People need to wake the hell up.


The Government outlawed the snake oils, not the drug companies. The Government shouldn't stand between the doctor and the patient, period. Let the doctor give the treatment the patient wants and everyone can live by the motto "buyer beware".


No, what the government has done is outlaw vitamin therapy by doctors. They can't stop people from taking their own vitamins although they would love to do that too.




no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:57 AM
Edited by Spidercmb on Tue 01/10/12 11:59 AM

Carbs are also vegetables and fruits.


It's true that some vegetables and fruits are high in carbs, which is why most fruits and all starchy vegetables are avoided on a low carb diet.

It's all about choosing nutrient dense foods. A cup and a half of broccoli has the same number of carbs as three french fries...which do you think is better for you?


The great apes only eat vegetables and fruits and they gain weight.


Many fruits are high in sugar, so you aren't make a valid point here. Also, great apes are not humans. If you accept the theory of Evolution, then you know that humans and apes diverged millions of years ago and no longer share the same diet or metabolism. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to think that what is bad for a human diet is bad for an ape. Comparing human diets to gorillas is only slightly better than saying "Humming Birds only eat sugar and they aren't fat!".


Cows are not meat eaters, and they gain weight. So your statement that if you don't eat carbs you can't gain weight is not true.


Meat has no carbs. Grains are high in carbs. Cows that are fed grains get fat. Which is why they are fed primarily grains for the last year of their life before they are sold to market. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make here, I never said that people get fat from eating meat.


In fact, raw vegetables burn more calories being digested than they give the body in return. That is why the Dolly Parton soup will cause you to loose weight the more of it you eat.


That is not true of all vegetables, just the catabolic ones. Also, many vegetables have anti-nutrients and shouldn't be consumed raw as cooking will help neutralize many of the anti-nutrients.


A balanced diet is the best. Your body needs carbs for energy. You can live on ketones but you still need carbs or you will find yourself dragging around with no energy because it takes too long to digest the ketones.


You don't need carbs for energy, I have plenty of energy. If you are on a low carb diet, your blood is full of ketones. The energy is there when you need it. Fat digests slowly, so you stay full and have a constant flow of energy into your blood stream.


So, do whatever works for you. Low carb, high fat did not work for me at all.


You probably did it wrong. The first couple weeks can be hard and you'll feel lethargic, but after that you go back to your high-carbs level. Did you drink LOTS of water? If you were just drinking 64 ounces, that was not nearly enough. Your liver needs water to turn fat into ketones.

no photo
Tue 01/10/12 11:58 AM

No, what the government has done is outlaw vitamin therapy by doctors. They can't stop people from taking their own vitamins although they would love to do that too.


Why can't they? They have outlawed the cures to cancer and every other major disease according to conspiracy theorists, so why can't they just outlaw vitamins? They control every damn thing else, why can't they outlaw vitamins? Seriously, I want to know. Do you even think about this crap before you type it?

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