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| Topic: Is "Free Will" a sin? | |
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to me, free will is just the presence of choice all those things we CHOOSE to do and say come from our free will basically, everything but being born, all involuntary physical actions within the body(like breathing). and having to die everything in between we choose to do,, or we choose to NOT DO,,with our free will So, you are non-Christian? not that Im aware of ..so do you then believe God has a plan for us all? Because that is where this issue arises. In a very BROAD sense, yes I do I believe he has a plan for our 'purpose' I believe the details of how that purpose is achieved, are chosen by us |
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to me, free will is just the presence of choice all those things we CHOOSE to do and say come from our free will basically, everything but being born, all involuntary physical actions within the body(like breathing). and having to die everything in between we choose to do,, or we choose to NOT DO,,with our free will I agree with all but a small part. Even being born is an exercise of free will. Many eggs are fertilized but do not choose to attach to the mother. If one does a child springs forth. Yet it is the striving of the man that makes the egg whole. and the striving of the egg that makes it a child. so when you carry one. It has chosen you for a mother. What an incredible honor. something a man can never know. |
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to me, free will is just the presence of choice all those things we CHOOSE to do and say come from our free will basically, everything but being born, all involuntary physical actions within the body(like breathing). and having to die everything in between we choose to do,, or we choose to NOT DO,,with our free will I agree with all but a small part. Even being born is an exercise of free will. Many eggs are fertilized but do not choose to attach to the mother. If one does a child springs forth. Yet it is the striving of the man that makes the egg whole. and the striving of the egg that makes it a child. so when you carry one. It has chosen you for a mother. What an incredible honor. something a man can never know. O.O >.> ..I'll say nothing on this. |
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to me, free will is just the presence of choice all those things we CHOOSE to do and say come from our free will basically, everything but being born, all involuntary physical actions within the body(like breathing). and having to die everything in between we choose to do,, or we choose to NOT DO,,with our free will So, you are non-Christian? not that Im aware of ..so do you then believe God has a plan for us all? Because that is where this issue arises. In a very BROAD sense, yes I do I believe he has a plan for our 'purpose' I believe the details of how that purpose is achieved, are chosen by us ..mkay.. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Tue 02/21/12 12:52 AM
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God did NOT give us a free will so we would choose
either to obey or not to obey!!!!! No. Religion teaches that !!! GOD ALWAYS KNEW we could not obey on our own .....right from the start !!! (That is why God sent us His Son Jesus to be our Saviour...not only to save us and live IN us ...but to also help us to obey).  God gave us a free will so we would either choose or not choose Jesus as Saviour !!!! (and of course , God gave us a free will to make other choices in life too.) God KNEW NO man would be able to OBEY(at least not for long),UNTIL he is FIRST BORN AGAIN !!!! THEN, AFTER man is born again.........THEN God thru the Power of The Holy Spirit ( Indwelling the believer now), ENABLES the believer to OBEY GOD NOW !!! It is God thru the Power of The Holy Spirit working IN and THRU the believer now, WHO is HELPING him to obey now. NOT the believer doing this on his own strength!!! AMEN? NONE OF US WERE ABLE TO OBEY ON OUR OWN BEFORE WE WERE SAVED ( at least not for long)....AND WE SURELY ARE NOT ABLE TO OBEY GOD ON OUR OWN AFTER WE ARE SAVED... IT IS ONLY GOD WHO IS LIVING IN US NOW AND WORKING THRU US NOW, WHO IS ENABLING US TO OBEY !!!! NOT US !!!!!! INSTEAD OF STRUGGLING TO OBEY ,WE ARE SIMPLY TO YIELD TO GOD'S WILL NOW...WHILE ALLOWING GOD TO WORK IN US AND THRU US NOW. AND WHEN WE JUST YIELD , THERE IS A SWEET REST FOUND IN JESUS, CAUSE WE NO LONGER ARE STRUGGLING TO OBEY .....INSTEAD,WE ARE JUST YIELDING AND ALLOWING GOD TO DO THE WORK IN US AND THRU US. That is what Jesus meant when He said, "My Yoke is Easy and My Burden is Light."  ALSO... GOD IS THE ONE WHO IS PERFECTING THAT GOOD WORK THAT HE HAS BEGUN IN US,WHEN WE BECAME BORN AGAIN. IT IS NOT US PERFECTING THAT GOOD WORK IN US...... BUT GOD WHO IS PERFECTING THAT GOOD WORK IN US. AMEN? And Also....NO man can even come to Jesus and Choose Jesus on his own in the first place,either.... EXCEPT the Father FIRST DRAW man UNTO HIM !!! FIRST !! |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Tue 02/21/12 12:55 AM
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Stating this implies, simply enough; Free-will is just an illusion, and everything you deem as a 'choice' is already predetermined as to which you will choose even if you think or believe you are the one actually making said choice. No Sin_and_Sorrow...everything is NOT predetermined..it is just everything is KNOWN by God. (Read up on the many attributes of God...it wiLl help make this more clear). God Who KNOWS ALL THNGS ,already knows the end from the beginnng and the beginning from the end... Nothing is presdestined, otherwise we would not have been given free will.... God just KNOWS already what we will even do with our free will...because God IS OUTSIDE OF TIME and IS ETERNAL... |
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Stating this implies, simply enough; Free-will is just an illusion, and everything you deem as a 'choice' is already predetermined as to which you will choose even if you think or believe you are the one actually making said choice. No Sin_and_Sorrow...everything is NOT predetermined..it is just everything is KNOWN by God. (Read up on the many attributes of God.it wil help make this more clear). God Who KNOWS ALL THNGS ,already knows the end from the beginnng and the beginning from the end... Nothing is presdestined, otherwise we would not have been given free will.... God just KNOWS already what we will even do with our free will...because God IS OUTSIDE OF TIME and IS ETERNAL... ..yeah, that's what you's keep telling me. I just don't see how anyone can even come close to remotely believing that... Bible says every man has a destiny that aligns itself with Gods plan. ..you cannot have destiny and free-will. If he knows what you are going to do, before you do, that's destiny. Not free-will. The way you describe it. I'm serious, God is the Oracle in the Matrix. No one in that movie had free-will. They had destinies. It wasn't until Neo sacrificed himself to end the 'war' did man truly finally have free-will. Everyone lived with the IDEA they had free-will, but it was still just a myth; a concept, a fairy tale.. |
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If we did not have free will , God would have made us all robots.
But God wants willing followers,not robots. That is WHY God gave us free will..so we would choose to come to Him WILLINGLY when He draws us...not make us come to Him or else... God wants relationship back with us. God just wants us all to come back home.....where we all belong....so we can spend eternity with Abba Father...like God meant for us to have with Him, all along.
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If we did not have free will , God would have made us all robots. But God wants willing followers,not robots. That is WHY God gave us free will..so we would choose to come to Him WILLINGLY when He draws us...not make us come to Him or else... God wants relationship back with us. God just wants us all to come back home.....where we all belong....so we can spend eternity with Abba Father...like God meant for us to have with Him, all along. ..Meh. God needed man to make metal.. ..so, he couldn't make robots. He didn't attend ITT. xD |
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Having or using freewill has to be backed by a subject.I mean i can type i used freewill to post this in this thread and i just did.As for the God theory you can either believe and obey or not.
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I don't think free will is a sin. I have come to the conclusion that the customer is always right no matter how crazy they are. Last night I was trying to help this lady. She told me to back away. I let her know that she had the right to refuse my help. I am glad that she had free will as it made my job easier with less work to do.
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Stating this implies, simply enough; Free-will is just an illusion, and everything you deem as a 'choice' is already predetermined as to which you will choose even if you think or believe you are the one actually making said choice. No Sin_and_Sorrow...everything is NOT predetermined..it is just everything is KNOWN by God. (Read up on the many attributes of God.it wil help make this more clear). God Who KNOWS ALL THNGS ,already knows the end from the beginnng and the beginning from the end... Nothing is presdestined, otherwise we would not have been given free will.... God just KNOWS already what we will even do with our free will...because God IS OUTSIDE OF TIME and IS ETERNAL... ..yeah, that's what you's keep telling me. I just don't see how anyone can even come close to remotely believing that... Bible says every man has a destiny that aligns itself with Gods plan. ..you cannot have destiny and free-will. If he knows what you are going to do, before you do, that's destiny. Not free-will. The way you describe it. I'm serious, God is the Oracle in the Matrix. No one in that movie had free-will. They had destinies. It wasn't until Neo sacrificed himself to end the 'war' did man truly finally have free-will. Everyone lived with the IDEA they had free-will, but it was still just a myth; a concept, a fairy tale.. I didn't get that at all from the Matrix. People did have a will. (The will is always free.) In the Matrix, the outcome was flexible. It could have gone either way depending on people's choices. Neo had a choice whether to take the red pill or the blue pill. It was not predetermined. Your will depends on your own conscious integrity. It is always free. God (if there is such a single entity) does not know what we will do or choose. But the universal matrix does 'know' all the probabilities. The probabilities are complex and they are determined by both the law and by what the will of each entity will decide to do. The will is the random factor. The law of cause and effect is not random. What the will will do is not and cannot be known. The will is always free. Neither God or the universal mind can know what the "free" will of any individual will choose once it is put into use. It is the random factor. It is the unknown. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Tue 02/21/12 08:24 AM
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They cannot both co-exist. The will is free. It is naturally free. It is earned through an evolution to CONSCIOUSNESS. It is not simply a choice between "good or evil" or God and Satan. That is a simplified version used by the authority of the Church leaders to gain compliance and teach those who are not yet "grown up" enough or conscious enough to know right from wrong. Rules are for children who do not know right from wrong. Reward and punishment is for children who do not know any better. When one becomes more conscious they grow up spiritually and when they do that, they know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God. I and the father are one. Our will is the same. Aligned with good. But freedom is freedom and the soul is free. Free to have their own interests, and their own direction. Free to make their own decisions in the universe. Freedom means independence and responsibility, it does not mean servitude and obedience. If you want to serve another entity that is your free choice to make but there is no punishment for not doing so. We are all free souls and creator Gods in training. God, the creative source of all things, the intelligent universal mind, wants to be free and wants all to be free because God lives and has his being in all. Precisely (in bold). That was what I was trying to explain, differentiate and figure out. It's either A or B; but cannot be both. A. Free-will is an illusion, all is just God's plan. (Biblical) B. Free-will is real, God has no plan for us. (Against the Bible) If the Bible is correct, our Destiny lies solely in when we are re-united with our creator, and his Plan meets its end. Stating this implies, simply enough; Free-will is just an illusion, and everything you deem as a 'choice' is already predetermined as to which you will choose even if you think or believe you are the one actually making said choice. Oddly enough, the concept revolves around the same 'plot' that the movie series, "The Matrix" was developed. You believe you picked this to eat, this to drive, or this action to take part in --but in reality, you were programmed prior to make that choice and the process in which you 'debated' was that of a similarity between your computer registering what 'action' you just told it to do. The computer will access possibilities of what you could have possibly meant, but ultimately, in the end; it only did exactly what you told it to do. Omniscience is really only a concept applied to a fictional character: god, so its not like we have some kind of empirical data to reference what this omniscience really entails. If you restrict omniscience to a knowledge of only the past, and all possible states of the present, you could have a god with a plan, who has wants and desires, and still have a compatibilist free will, or as Dan Dennet likes to call it free wont. You neuter "destiny" by making it a function of gods will but not a necessitated outcome, only a desired path, but then this makes god either not omnipotent, or selectively uses that power, ie not omnibenevolent whatever that means anyways. Cowboy, free will is a concept with a lot of baggage, its ok for you to eschew the baggage, but you should recognize its existence. The baggage in question is the seeming contradiction with determinism. I deal with this a different way myself, I am a compatibilist, which is a fancy label for someone who thinks free will is compatible with determinism. The main question to be answered in squaring free will, gods omniscience, and destiny is the concept that if an entity (god), had complete knowledge of you could he "determine" your actions with 100% accuracy? Do some decisions come down to an equal likelihood of action? Could god guess wrong? |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 02/21/12 08:54 AM
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But back to the original topic title, "Is free will a sin?" (according to religious ideals?
"Sin" itself, according to religion, is disobedience of God. Therefore, the idea of free will is a glitch in the dogma of obedience to God (authority.) I am claiming that the idea of obedience to God is nothing more than obedience to your church authority where religion is concerned. It is your church authority that has told you that the Bible is God's word and that the 10 commandments should be obeyed. If we have what we call "freedom" or "free will" then there can be no commandments at all. Lets call them the ten suggestions. They are the ten suggestions because we have free will. With free will, no one can command you under the threat of punishment or death. If they do, then they are coercing you. To coerce you is to interfere in your freedom to choose. It is extortion. Example of extortion: If a tough guy came to your house or business and gave you the option of paying him "protection" or having your house trashed, he can say you have the "free will" to either pay or suffer the consequences. If you refuse to pay, he will leave, and then later send a gang to go trash your house or business and/or rob or rape you. Then, he will tell you that it was your own fault because you made the wrong choice. Religion extortion: You are told that yes, you have "free will" to choose to accept and follow Jesus as your savior(etc) If you do not, then you will suffer the consequences. Religions practice extortion, but they will tell you that they are "just telling you the truth and giving you advice for your own good." They are doing the same thing as the tough guy who warned you that your house could be or would be trashed and/or robbed if you did not pay for their protection. They call that "free will." But that is extortion and coercion. It is not free will when you are coerced into obedience. And obedience to whom? They claim "God." but they mean their ideas of what they think God wants us to do or not do. They not only have ten "commandments" they dredge up all kinds of things from the old testament (The Jews Bible) about homosexuality and countless other things. They call it obedience to God. But where is this God who is supposed to be barking out orders? God does not live here and he does not run for office and he does not go around ordering people how to live their lives. I believe we were given our minds and our wills and our consciousness so that we can learn right from wrong and make our own decisions. Humans need to grow up. Religion teaches that free will is a sin. Adam and Eve used it. They were punished. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 02/21/12 08:57 AM
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How long are you expected to obey your mother and father? All of your life?
Will you go into the profession that they tell you? Will you marry the person they tell you to marry? Will you raise your children how they tell you they should be raised? Of course not. People become adults and they learn to live independently of their parents. Why would a God want his children to remain children? Why would a God want a bunch of obedient slaves? The expansion of the universe thrives on diversity. There could be no diversity if everyone thinks the same, does the same things. and does not think for themselves, because they only follow orders and their programming. We are humans. Freedom is paramount. |
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Religion teaches that free will is a sin. Adam and Eve used it.
They were punished. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Tue 02/21/12 08:51 AM
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Im with JB on this.
You have a all powerful god who knows everything who creates a system were you must believe in him to be redeemed for being what he made you. He KNOWS exactly what you are and why you are what you are, but cannot forgive you for being what you are unless you believe in his magician son who he sacrificed for things he did not do so he could forgive those that did do bad things, but things he knew you would do. If you do your own thing you are punished for not following the system, ohh but its your own fault for exercising your free will that he gave you and knew what you would do with it. Just imagine for a moment god as a parent . . . quite literally he would be the worst parent ever, and child services would take us from him in a second. If applied to humans we would call this psychotic, but applied to a god its just mysterious . . . lol. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 02/21/12 08:53 AM
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If you are of the belief that things exist only in the present, an all knowing God can only know what is happening at the present moment. Therefore, knowledge of the future is limited to "guessing." If there were no random factor, determinism hinges on the laws of cause and effect and can be known. I believe the random factor is the WILL of living creatures, who may not always react predictably. Therefore, all knowing must be limited to know all that is right NOW in the present moment. Where people make the mistake of thinking that God can know the future is that people believe that the future exists. It doesn't. Bushidobillyclub: I deal with this a different way myself, I am a compatibilist, which is a fancy label for someone who thinks free will is compatible with determinism. Determinism is like a machine. The law is the law and it always will work according to programming (the laws.) But without "free will" the machine sits motionless. It cannot move. It sits and waits for first cause. |
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First cause in the machine is THE WILL.
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Tue 02/21/12 03:06 PM
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You have a all powerful god who knows everything who creates a system were you must believe in him to be redeemed for being what he made you. No Billy.....it is NOT tthat we MUST believe..or else !!! Religion teaches that...not God's Word... God's Word NEVER says we MUST believe Him, or else !!! Again, God KNEW we would disobey (sin against God). BUT God ALSO made a WAY FOR US TO COME BACK TO GOD...(that is why He sent us His Son Jesus)..... and again...it is NOT about " we MUST ", or else !! Instead......it's about GOD DRAWING us and CONVICTING our HEARTS until WE WILLINGLY COME TO HIM ONE DAY..... NOT MUST.....but WE WILLINGLY COME when our hearts are finally CONVICTED of our sin and need for Jesus as our Saviour..THEN we have FREE WILL to CHOOSE to beleive and receive Jesus or to reject Jesus (BUT ONLY AFTER WE ARE FIRST CONVICTED AND DRAWN BY GOD THRU THE HOLY SPIRIT ... FIRST )... but WHO wilL reject JESUS , WHEN his/her heart is SOO convicted??? WHO??? But ONLY the hardest heart? THAT is the Power of God's LOVE for us...He DRAWS us unto HIM.....GOD WOOOS us...and at just the right time GOD SAVES US, when we finally believe and receive JESUS as our SAVIOUR into our hearts WILLINGLY by Faith !!!! (and btw,that FAITH TO BELIEVE also Comes from God,as we HEAR about GOD thru His WORD ...and God begins to TOUCH AND DEAL with our hearts...so we can choose to believe and receive Him with a WILLING heart now).... OR, we can choose to not believe, and just HARDEN our hearts when God DRAWS AND TOUCHES and DEAL with our hearts, too. But then again, Who will reject God When God draws us?? Except the hardest heart? It is religiousity and false teaching thst turns peope from God..not God.... and btw,that is exactly what the enemy of our soul wants to see happen..... God LOVES us....GOD is NOT out to beat us up over the head , or else. Again.... GOD DRAWS us UNTO HIM ...and CONVICTS us....and THEN gives us a chance to CHOOSE TO COME TO HIM WILLINGLY ON OUR OWN FREE WILL ...but ONLY AFTER GOD FIRST DRAWS us and CONVICTS us FIRST.... cause God KNOWS that NO man can EVER come to God ON HIS OWN. NO man can . No man is able to. That is why it takes God first drawing us....and dealing with all our hearts....first. |
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