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| Topic: Is "Free Will" a sin? | |
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I didn't get that at all from the Matrix. People did have a will. (The will is always free.) In the Matrix, the outcome was flexible. It could have gone either way depending on people's choices. Neo had a choice whether to take the red pill or the blue pill. It was not predetermined. It was predetermined though. Had Neo not taken the pill he chose, the 'One' wouldn't have been born again. The Oracle hinted as much in her almost nonsense way of speaking. The sense of 'choice' didn't truly exist. It was already known he would take the pill. To further enforce this, Neo, before becoming one of those outside the Matrix, knew he was the one. Trinity, loved him, Morpheus, knew he was what he was, before Neo accepted that Morpheus was right. The concept of choice was just a myth in itself. Also the Frenchmen even spoke in riddles of the same concept. We have a sense of choice, but our minds have already given us the cause to pick one or the other, there was never truly a debate between what we could have picked and what we did pick. Thus, the Matrix concept. Your will depends on your own conscious integrity. It is always free. God (if there is such a single entity) does not know what we will do or choose. But the universal matrix does 'know' all the probabilities. The probabilities are complex and they are determined by both the law and by what the will of each entity will decide to do. True, it could be.. ..or it could be a lie in itself; thus creating the illusion. Whether we deem it a choice or a predetermined and set course of action; is something we cannot actually prove. You may think you had the choice to type in this thread, like RSKIT said, or maybe, you were already destined to do so, but the why will always escape us. The will is the random factor. The law of cause and effect is not random. If will is a truth, than I agree yes. What the will will do is not and cannot be known. The will is always free. Neither God or the universal mind can know what the "free" will of any individual will choose once it is put into use. It is the random factor. It is the unknown. ..that is again true, if, everything is not already predetermined. |
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Free will is choice, period. No if's an's or but's about it. Free will means you can make a choice. The reaction and or consequence of the action has no merit on weather it's free will or not, for you still had the choice. You have the choice to obey God, or not. You are not an automatically programmed robot or puppet on a string. YOU choose, no one else. I disagree. (WITH THE BOLD) We have the consciousness to think for ourselves. We don't need a boss to obey. WE ARE FREE. Our souls are free. The will is a conscious decision to direct your own life. It is not simply a choice. Most choices you make throughout your day are unconscious choices. When you make a conscious choice, you are using your will. The will is always conscious. We live most of or lives reacting and responding to natural stimuli that is programmed within our makeup. That is, we don't really THINK about what we are doing or the choices we are making. The WILL IS ALWAYS and naturally FREE. It is not a "gift." It is earned by becoming conscious. When we as creatures become more and more conscious, we manifest our ability to think and use our will. There is no entity living and ruling us giving us commands and asking us to obey. There is only consciousness. It is not a choice to "obey" God or not. That is ridiculous. We are designed and have evolved with the ability to THINK AND REASON AND BE CONSCIOUS. We are not robots because and only because have evolved to have more consciousness. Well said, my thoughts precisely. Although I allow(respect) freedom of choice in what others choose to believe, as I allow myself, I am confounded when seemingly intelligent folks choose, what I believe to be, superstition over trusting their own core. |
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Well said, my thoughts precisely. Although I allow(respect) freedom of choice in what others choose to believe, as I allow myself, I am confounded when seemingly intelligent folks choose, what I believe to be, superstition over trusting their own core. But what is your own core? Yes, I agree, the Bible is filled with a bunch of nonsense and hypocrisy and almost every Christian will state one of two of the same things, 'Men are not meant to truly grasp God's word' or 'You are misreading God's word'. Throughout history, man has always tried to do, but has at times failed miserably, to explain the origin of our universe. The notion, which may have even been discussed in centuries long past, was summed up in two ideals. A. We were created by something bigger and more powerful than ourselves that we cannot ever truly fully understand; via, the birth of Religion and God. or B. Man has no true purpose whatsoever and we are just a byproduct of a vast series of non-explainable and undefinable events. The very birth of Religion, gave man what it had lacked for years prior.. a purpose. You live. You die. Everything in between was of little true value. In retrospect. You call it superstition.. ..but is it ultimately better to believe man actually has a purpose? ..or is it better to believe we are not meant to truly exist? |
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The will is the random factor This doesn't really solve the problem either, if our will is just random then is not really willed is it? Dan Dennet on free will compatibilism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utai74HjPJE |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Tue 02/21/12 03:56 PM
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You have the choice to obey God, or not. Again,NO man is able to obey God on his own. And again, God KNOWS this . We have a choice to accept or reject Jesus, or not. AFTER God FIRST draws us... God just wants us to WILLINGLY accept His Son Jesus..first..... THEN GOD will LIVE in us and HELP us to OBEY...THEN....and we ( because we have a NEW nature in us... the heart of God beating in us when we become born again ) will then be WILLING to obey,as God works THRU us and IN us, helping us to obey... because we have the heart of God beating in us now, when we become born again. WE WANT to please God now..and God IN US will help us and lead us, and guide us ,and teach us ...thru The Holy Spirit Now Indwelling us....to Obey..and walk in all of God's ways. It is GOD WHO IS WORKING IN us and THRU us now.....helping us to OBEY. I can't emphasize this enough....  
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The will is the random factor This doesn't really solve the problem either, if our will is just random then is not really willed is it? Dan Dennet on free will compatibilism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utai74HjPJE I'm not fond of Dan Dennet and I find many flaws in his logic. I did not mean to imply that "our will" is "just random." What I mean is, in the machine of the universal mind (the laws of this universe, the laws of cause and effect) the random factor is the will of living creatures. I don't know if you caught or understood what I said before. The machine is set. Every law is in place. Without consciousness and without the will, it will not move. It is just a machine. Consciousness and the will, is the power behind the machine. Consciousness and the will is the thinking stuff of the universe and it is what causes movement. The will is CAUSE. Without cause, there is no effect. There is no movement. There is no life. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 02/21/12 04:36 PM
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p.s. I will listen to that link you posted.
The Will exists. And it is always free. People who used the common term "free will" don't really understand the Will itself, so I don't regard what they are saying as truth. (The problem is, most people do commonly use the term "free" with "will." That is a bad habit because it implies that the will could be anything but free.) The will is very close to consciousness. It is the awareness to choose against common programming and instinct. Consciousness is what would make a robot have a will of its own. Determinism cannot exist. The universe with only law and no consciousness cannot move or live. If it exists, it is not alive until the introduction of consciousness and the will. |
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Sin_and_Sorrow
Regarding the movie "The matrix" I still say that things are not predetermined, and were not, even in the movie. If they were, then why would Neal even have to go through all of that? What's the point? In the movie, they hinted at that, but it was only what they wanted you to think or believe. (Perhaps they believed it. I don't know.) Perhaps the author of the movie believes it. I don't. One of the characters in the movie tried to convince Neal that he would fail. If the result was predetermined then why even make the effort? Our lives and our actions are not predetermined. That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. No one could ever convince me of that. |
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And neither God or the devil knows what I will do next.
  
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And neither God or the devil knows what I will do next. No they don't. If they did, our lives would be moreorless pointless. If every step we take was preknown, there would be no reason for it. We could just be created and judged the same day. |
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Sin_and_Sorrow Regarding the movie "The matrix" I still say that things are not predetermined, and were not, even in the movie. If they were, then why would Neal even have to go through all of that? What's the point? ..that's how it always was. That was the point. It was to keep the numbers in check. Towards the end, Neo finally broke the chain, thus, unleashing the first unperceived notion of actual recorded free will. When he saved Trinity over saving mankind. Ultimately, he found another way, but regardless. ..and I'm not saying were in the movie, lol. I'm saying, its the perfect example of what the illusion of free will would/could represent. The Oracle, would be like God, and the Maker was like the Devil. Only difference was, the Oracle saw a new outcome, by hinting, Neo-- Ok, sorry, getting too involved in the movie reference. In the movie, they hinted at that, but it was only what they wanted you to think or believe. (Perhaps they believed it. I don't know.) Perhaps the author of the movie believes it. I don't. One of the characters in the movie tried to convince Neal that he would fail. If the result was predetermined then why even make the effort? Our lives and our actions are not predetermined. That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. No one could ever convince me of that. Because that character, which I know not of the one you speak; wasn't one of the main individuals who had the knowledge of how things would end. The Oracle tried to push for a new way of order, the Maker made it seem as though there was no true options, but he knew the Oracle was right, and also knew once Neo made the choice no one before him had made; what the outcome would now be. Predetermined. 
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Is free will a sin?......well you have the free will to do as you please, you have the free will to murder and individual but on the other hand it is a sin, you also have the free will to live a holy and sactified life before Chist but thats not a sin!!! God gives everyone the will power to do as they please but he also has a set of commandments that if broken is considered a sin. But he will never make you do anything "YOU MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS BUT HE WILL TELL YOU WHATS RIGHT AND WHATS WRONG"
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And neither God or the devil knows what I will do next. No they don't. If they did, our lives would be moreorless pointless. If every step we take was preknown, there would be no reason for it. We could just be created and judged the same day. That isn't true at all Cowboy. God knows what everyone will do, God knows all information. Or are you now going to say that someone could trick God? You paint yourself into these philosophical corners all the time... |
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Well Said...Bravo!!!!
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And neither God or the devil knows what I will do next. No they don't. If they did, our lives would be moreorless pointless. If every step we take was preknown, there would be no reason for it. We could just be created and judged the same day. That isn't true at all Cowboy. God knows what everyone will do, God knows all information. Or are you now going to say that someone could trick God? You paint yourself into these philosophical corners all the time... Spider you are wrong. Cowboy is right. If there is an entity (God) and if he knows everything he could only know everything that exists in the present moment. The future does not exist. Nothing exists in the past or future. Also, nothing is predetermined. An all seeing God could only know what you will do IF everything were predetermined. It is not. A predetermined universe would be pointless. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Tue 02/21/12 05:21 PM
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God KNOWS all things...
but God does not PREDESTINE all things to happen.... in other words, God does not presdestine what we will do with our free will..God just already KNOWS what we will do with our free will. Again....GOD KNOWS ALL THINGS ... Let's not underestimate or limit what God is able to do..... by trying to bring God down to our level of human understanding.. God's Ways are FAR ABOVE our ways ....and HIS Understanding is FAR ABOVE our understanding....
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To say that there is a God that knows what everyone will do before they do it, is to say that the universe is predetermined. If the universe is predetermined, there is no point in doing or deciding anything.
You are just a machine following programming. Ridiculous.
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Tue 02/21/12 05:21 PM
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Spider you are wrong. Cowboy is right. If there is an entity (God) and if he knows everything he could only know everything that exists in the present moment. The future does not exist. Nothing exists in the past or future. Also, nothing is predetermined. An all seeing God could only know what you will do IF everything were predetermined. It is not. A predetermined universe would be pointless. Okay, that is all false according to physics. The Universe we live in has at least four dimensions, including time. Any being outside of our universe could observe everything that happens from beginning to end. God created our universe and therefore does not need our universe (including time) to exist. God knows everything that is going to happen because, from His timeless perspective from outside the universe, everything has already happened. |
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Is free will a sin?......well you have the free will to do as you please, you have the free will to murder and individual but on the other hand it is a sin, you also have the free will to live a holy and sactified life before Chist but thats not a sin!!! God gives everyone the will power to do as they please but he also has a set of commandments that if broken is considered a sin. But he will never make you do anything "YOU MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS BUT HE WILL TELL YOU WHATS RIGHT AND WHATS WRONG" Read the thread. Any choice made under threat or coercion is not a free choice. If "free will" exists, then there can be no commandments that carry some punishment. If "free will" exists the ten commandments are only the ten suggestions. ***** The law of cause and effect will be a just law. What ever you do, there are always consequences according to the law. However that law was put in place, it is exacting. There is no need for a God to punish us because the law will distribute justice eventually. What goes around comes around, as they say. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 02/21/12 05:24 PM
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Spider you are wrong. Cowboy is right. If there is an entity (God) and if he knows everything he could only know everything that exists in the present moment. The future does not exist. Nothing exists in the past or future. Also, nothing is predetermined. An all seeing God could only know what you will do IF everything were predetermined. It is not. A predetermined universe would be pointless. Okay, that is all false according to physics. The Universe we live in has at least four dimensions, including time. Any being outside of our universe could observe everything that happens from beginning to end. God created our universe and therefore does not need our universe (including time) to exist. God knows everything that is going to happen because, from His timeless perspective from outside the universe, everything has already happened. That's an interesting idea but I don't think there is any evidence to support it. Tell me how "physics" supports that claim. |
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