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| Topic: Hazing? Consentual bullying? | |
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Ritual, tradition, right of passage. That just goes with the wussification of people. When I went through airborne school and graduated we had a tradition of getting "blood wings" Where at graduation the jump masters would hold your winds to your chest and punch them in so they stuck to your chest. Then you had some whine and cry about it and they no longer do it. If you ask me it created a stronger bond of brotherhood between us. But hey what do I know. sounds pretty stupid Why? Then again if you haven't been through it I wouldn't expect you to understand. It was a time honored tradition. To me it gave me more of a sense of accomplishment. It still sounds like some dumm thing guys would do that has no basis in any reason or purpose. like some prehistoric tribal ritual.... don;t assume you have some kind of premium on having "been through" things anyway sounds like a guy thing  It isn't a guy thing. It's the kind of thing that continues because the recipients of the actions don't have the guts to say "No" to the infliction of flesh wounds. |
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Ritual, tradition, right of passage. That just goes with the wussification of people. When I went through airborne school and graduated we had a tradition of getting "blood wings" Where at graduation the jump masters would hold your winds to your chest and punch them in so they stuck to your chest. Then you had some whine and cry about it and they no longer do it. If you ask me it created a stronger bond of brotherhood between us. But hey what do I know. Not about to get into a pizzing match with a tough guy like you, but your words and attitude are a HUGE part of the problem and why so many young "children" are "dying" to confirm "right of passage"...Also, getting poked in the chest with a sharp object at the age of 22 is not hazing, it is childs play for wussies... This is the result of hazing...."Hank Nuwer Chronology of Hazing Deaths" http://www.hanknuwer.com/hazingdeaths.html From the article... FYI: This list contains the minimum number of deaths from such causes. The section of the title "of hazing, initiation, and pledging-Related Accidents" is used because of legal advice due to strong attempts by interest groups to disassociate themselves from certain episodes described below. In my books I have tried to reserve the term "��hazing" for those incidents that have been so identified by state and institutional authorities. If a state hazing law has not been invoked (or a grand jury failed to indict), or if a school or victim'��s family said hazing did not occur even though the fatal occurrence closely matched standard definitions of hazing, I use the term "��Initiation and Pledging-related Accident"instead of the term "hazing." Obviously, even with 44 laws on the books, the definition of hazing is often disputed by individuals and their organizations-��and even occasionally by grieving families of deceased pledges who prefer to think their loved ones died following "��horseplay." At the same time, some examined deaths due to alcohol use may not fall under the category of hazing. Some deaths may reveal other hazing-related deaths, including the deaths of members at the hands of other members disciplining them, deaths of members during pledge sneaks (pledges taking harsh action against members), and other less typical actions resulting in deaths. Hi Leigh,  Are you suggesting 174 hazing deaths in 175 years... outrageously problematic? I have no opinion on the subject... But There's one case in that list where the fellow died from a cold caught by icewater haze?  I wonder how many training recruits have died in military boot camps in the same period... I bet it's at least 10 times that figure? Yeah, I am...I consider one unnecessary death problematic, not to mention the injuries both physical and psychological....What is the purpose, what excuse can you make that would would justify even one death?......Yeah, me and 44 other state consider hazing outrageously problematic....And your analogy is....well, it has no merit John.... I agree leigh...we are supposed to be an intelligent species. getting my own bank accout was my rite of passage. do something constructive is how I earn my "wings" any time anyone anywhere has attempted to "haze" me I put an immediate stop to it and reported it to the authorities....and have gone over heads many times and would again. to me, wrong from right, respect and honor are more important than popularity earned by cooperating with something inherently stupid and potentially dangerous Well stated as always Sweet ....I am so tired of the macho mentality that leaves room for nothing else....Can not imagine the pain and suffering loved ones, especially mothers and fathers, endure when they lose a child to something so vapid....My right of passage came when I was 19...I gave birth to a beautiful, healthy baby girl....
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Ritual, tradition, right of passage. That just goes with the wussification of people. When I went through airborne school and graduated we had a tradition of getting "blood wings" Where at graduation the jump masters would hold your winds to your chest and punch them in so they stuck to your chest. Then you had some whine and cry about it and they no longer do it. If you ask me it created a stronger bond of brotherhood between us. But hey what do I know. sounds pretty stupid Why? Then again if you haven't been through it I wouldn't expect you to understand. It was a time honored tradition. To me it gave me more of a sense of accomplishment. I agree with TJN, it's a time honored tradition you don't break. |
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Ritual, tradition, right of passage. That just goes with the wussification of people. When I went through airborne school and graduated we had a tradition of getting "blood wings" Where at graduation the jump masters would hold your winds to your chest and punch them in so they stuck to your chest. Then you had some whine and cry about it and they no longer do it. If you ask me it created a stronger bond of brotherhood between us. But hey what do I know. sounds pretty stupid Why? Then again if you haven't been through it I wouldn't expect you to understand. It was a time honored tradition. To me it gave me more of a sense of accomplishment. It still sounds like some dumm thing guys would do that has no basis in any reason or purpose. like some prehistoric tribal ritual.... don;t assume you have some kind of premium on having "been through" things anyway sounds like a guy thing First of all it's not "some dumb thing guys would do" I had 2 Army females and a female Marine who were in my class. Second I'm not assuming anything. I think I'm qualified on the subject having been through it. Third maybe it is "like some prehistoric tribal ritual" but there are those of us who are honored to have been a part of that prehistoric tribal ritual. What I'm not understanding is those who feel the need to degrade those of us who did it. Is that not a form of bulling itself? |
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Ritual, tradition, right of passage. That just goes with the wussification of people. When I went through airborne school and graduated we had a tradition of getting "blood wings" Where at graduation the jump masters would hold your winds to your chest and punch them in so they stuck to your chest. Then you had some whine and cry about it and they no longer do it. If you ask me it created a stronger bond of brotherhood between us. But hey what do I know. Not about to get into a pizzing match with a tough guy like you, but your words and attitude are a HUGE part of the problem and why so many young "children" are "dying" to confirm "right of passage"...Also, getting poked in the chest with a sharp object at the age of 22 is not hazing, it is childs play for wussies... This is the result of hazing...."Hank Nuwer Chronology of Hazing Deaths" http://www.hanknuwer.com/hazingdeaths.html From the article... FYI: This list contains the minimum number of deaths from such causes. The section of the title "of hazing, initiation, and pledging-Related Accidents" is used because of legal advice due to strong attempts by interest groups to disassociate themselves from certain episodes described below. In my books I have tried to reserve the term "��hazing" for those incidents that have been so identified by state and institutional authorities. If a state hazing law has not been invoked (or a grand jury failed to indict), or if a school or victim'��s family said hazing did not occur even though the fatal occurrence closely matched standard definitions of hazing, I use the term "��Initiation and Pledging-related Accident"instead of the term "hazing." Obviously, even with 44 laws on the books, the definition of hazing is often disputed by individuals and their organizations-��and even occasionally by grieving families of deceased pledges who prefer to think their loved ones died following "��horseplay." At the same time, some examined deaths due to alcohol use may not fall under the category of hazing. Some deaths may reveal other hazing-related deaths, including the deaths of members at the hands of other members disciplining them, deaths of members during pledge sneaks (pledges taking harsh action against members), and other less typical actions resulting in deaths. Hi Leigh, Are you suggesting 174 hazing deaths in 175 years... outrageously problematic? I have no opinion on the subject... But There's one case in that list where the fellow died from a cold caught by icewater haze? I wonder how many training recruits have died in military boot camps in the same period... I bet it's at least 10 times that figure? Yeah, I am...I consider one unnecessary death problematic, not to mention the injuries both physical and psychological....What is the purpose, what excuse can you make that would would justify even one death?......Yeah, me and 44 other state consider hazing outrageously problematic....And your analogy is....well, it has no merit John.... I agree leigh...we are supposed to be an intelligent species. getting my own bank accout was my rite of passage. do something constructive is how I earn my "wings" any time anyone anywhere has attempted to "haze" me I put an immediate stop to it and reported it to the authorities....and have gone over heads many times and would again. to me, wrong from right, respect and honor are more important than popularity earned by cooperating with something inherently stupid and potentially dangerous Well stated as always Sweet ....I am so tired of the macho mentality that leaves room for nothing else....Can not imagine the pain and suffering loved ones, especially mothers and fathers, endure when they lose a child to something so vapid....My right of passage came when I was 19...I gave birth to a beautiful, healthy baby girl.... I'm sorry if I came across as having a "macho mentality" that wasn't my intent. I was using an example of my own experience. How do you feel about college sororities hazing? And aren't there any cases of women dying or having permanent health problems due to child birth? Should we make child birth against the law then? |
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Edited by
Drivinmenutz
on
Sat 11/30/13 08:11 PM
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Ritual, tradition, right of passage. That just goes with the wussification of people. When I went through airborne school and graduated we had a tradition of getting "blood wings" Where at graduation the jump masters would hold your winds to your chest and punch them in so they stuck to your chest. Then you had some whine and cry about it and they no longer do it. If you ask me it created a stronger bond of brotherhood between us. But hey what do I know. Cheers for the bloodwings!  Got mine back in '02 (I think my group was an exception). But these hazing rituals helped many develope coping skills. Skills that become useful in an animalistic world of kill or be killed. Not to mention the brotherhood you speak of also helped when dealing with extreme situations/emotions. They started getting softer during basic training because people were whining so much. Terrible idea if you ask me. Most will never understand. "The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in combat" I do see that as almost a separate issue though as it is a different world. Back to the topic at hand, who is responsible in "consensual bullying"? the Bully, or the one who consents? Both are guilty as either party can stop it. Stupid? I extreme cases, yes. Can (or should) we pass a law preventing people from being stupid? That is still up for debate... |
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Ritual, tradition, right of passage. That just goes with the wussification of people. When I went through airborne school and graduated we had a tradition of getting "blood wings" Where at graduation the jump masters would hold your winds to your chest and punch them in so they stuck to your chest. Then you had some whine and cry about it and they no longer do it. If you ask me it created a stronger bond of brotherhood between us. But hey what do I know. Not about to get into a pizzing match with a tough guy like you, but your words and attitude are a HUGE part of the problem and why so many young "children" are "dying" to confirm "right of passage"...Also, getting poked in the chest with a sharp object at the age of 22 is not hazing, it is childs play for wussies... This is the result of hazing...."Hank Nuwer Chronology of Hazing Deaths" http://www.hanknuwer.com/hazingdeaths.html From the article... FYI: This list contains the minimum number of deaths from such causes. The section of the title "of hazing, initiation, and pledging-Related Accidents" is used because of legal advice due to strong attempts by interest groups to disassociate themselves from certain episodes described below. In my books I have tried to reserve the term "��hazing" for those incidents that have been so identified by state and institutional authorities. If a state hazing law has not been invoked (or a grand jury failed to indict), or if a school or victim'��s family said hazing did not occur even though the fatal occurrence closely matched standard definitions of hazing, I use the term "��Initiation and Pledging-related Accident"instead of the term "hazing." Obviously, even with 44 laws on the books, the definition of hazing is often disputed by individuals and their organizations-��and even occasionally by grieving families of deceased pledges who prefer to think their loved ones died following "��horseplay." At the same time, some examined deaths due to alcohol use may not fall under the category of hazing. Some deaths may reveal other hazing-related deaths, including the deaths of members at the hands of other members disciplining them, deaths of members during pledge sneaks (pledges taking harsh action against members), and other less typical actions resulting in deaths. Hi Leigh, Are you suggesting 174 hazing deaths in 175 years... outrageously problematic? I have no opinion on the subject... But There's one case in that list where the fellow died from a cold caught by icewater haze? I wonder how many training recruits have died in military boot camps in the same period... I bet it's at least 10 times that figure? Yeah, I am...I consider one unnecessary death problematic, not to mention the injuries both physical and psychological....What is the purpose, what excuse can you make that would would justify even one death?......Yeah, me and 44 other state consider hazing outrageously problematic....And your analogy is....well, it has no merit John.... I agree leigh...we are supposed to be an intelligent species. getting my own bank accout was my rite of passage. do something constructive is how I earn my "wings" any time anyone anywhere has attempted to "haze" me I put an immediate stop to it and reported it to the authorities....and have gone over heads many times and would again. to me, wrong from right, respect and honor are more important than popularity earned by cooperating with something inherently stupid and potentially dangerous Well stated as always Sweet ....I am so tired of the macho mentality that leaves room for nothing else....Can not imagine the pain and suffering loved ones, especially mothers and fathers, endure when they lose a child to something so vapid....My right of passage came when I was 19...I gave birth to a beautiful, healthy baby girl.... I'm sorry if I came across as having a "macho mentality" that wasn't my intent. I was using an example of my own experience. How do you feel about college sororities hazing? And aren't there any cases of women dying or having permanent health problems due to child birth? Should we make child birth against the law then? It's not about who is doing the hazing, it about what hazing is...Hazing is a ritual that includes harassment, humiliation, and physical and psychological abuse...It often involves teenagers, it has a proven history that includes devastating injuries and death, it is against the law in most states...I am against the practice of hazing in any social group... Tell me you're not comparing hazing to child birth...When I mentioned child birth, it was as an example of "right of passage" not hazing..... |
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In the military it's almost a necessity.....separates the men from the boys, and when you count on the guy next to you to cover your back in battle, you want to know he has the dangling duo to do so |
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In the military it's almost a necessity.....separates the men from the boys, and when you count on the guy next to you to cover your back in battle, you want to know he has the dangling duo to do so Soul, I totally understand testing mettle after boot or extensive "Military" training....I even agree it might be the only way to determine a person's "readiness"...But what do you think about high school and college kids who are soft, naive, sheltered, immature, mixed up, etc...participating in a ritual many have not yet "developed" the skills to handle either physically or psychologically WHILE under the influence of alcohol (and drugs?) in many instances?.....I think it is wrong and way to dangerous and useless as a means of any type of preparation for manhood or womanhood.. What say you?... |
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In the military it's almost a necessity.....separates the men from the boys, and when you count on the guy next to you to cover your back in battle, you want to know he has the dangling duo to do so Soul, I totally understand testing mettle after boot or extensive "Military" training....I even agree it might be the only way to determine a person's "readiness"...But what do you think about high school and college kids who are soft, naive, sheltered, immature, mixed up, etc...participating in a ritual many have not yet "developed" the skills to handle either physically or psychologically WHILE under the influence of alcohol (and drugs?) in many instances?.....I think it is wrong and way to dangerous and useless as a means of any type of preparation for manhood or womanhood.. What say you?... I was in Nam 37 days after my 18 b-day...... I'm not a good one to ask about ritual hazing in schools. Frat wishers know they will be hazed, the learning is in "at what price" do you value your desire. Anything can be carried to an extreme, even the smallest or most unbelievable of things...... look at religion..... |
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Edited by
TJN
on
Sun 12/01/13 09:43 AM
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Tell me you're not comparing hazing to child birth...When I mentioned child birth, it was as an example of "right of passage" not hazing..... I did no such thing. Is there not a fine line between hazing and right of passage? I compaired blood wings to a right of passage not hazing. Some would call it hazing. I guess it's all everyone's own perspective. You are the one who brought child birth into the conversation. Which I dont think belongs in the coversation because it's not others doing it to you. I said what I did because you said one death is to many. The title of the OP is hazing? Consentual bullying? Was it not? I used an example of hazing I lived through that was stopped because a few complained about it. Now I called it a right of passage, a time honored tradition. A couple of you read to much into it. Made it into a dumb macho thing. It's not only men doing it. Yes I will agree some take it to far and there are deaths, but those going into it know the risks and can stop any time they want. I just don't like that because of a few that take things to the extreme It has to ruin it for those who want to go through the and carry on traditions. Wether it's sports a college frat or sorority or blood wings or what have you. |
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I understand extreme rites of passage for military who go under extreme circumstances,,,
IM still not sure the relevance or need for anything dangerous/humiliating/potentially illegal to get into a club at school,,,,be it high school or college but people do stupid / dangerous/ potentially illegal things quite often when under the influence of alcohol just because they choose to if its a true choice, and not a result of threat or intimidation, I can think its stupid from a distance,,lol |
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Edited by
JOHNN111
on
Mon 12/02/13 08:45 AM
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They should have the guts to face their fears... Sometimes, in life, we need this if we don't want to raise a nation of cut & run types... From parenthood to military. Stand straight laddie!!! This is NOT about risking their lives This is NOT about risking serious injury, both of which I'm opposed to. I'd be stunned to hear of one single death in military hazing. They know, they're brothers in arms... They know, it'll hurt like a biotch but it/they won't risk killing their own brothers. You ladies want Men? Real Men? Well start when they're boys dammit! PS: I take it back, I do have an opinion on this subject.  |
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