no so. nature is violent!!!!!!!!

well alex

i can not argue w/you 'bout that

but this is why i said this

i have the conception that

nature ussuly attacks to survive

and if your survival is at stake

then i figure it is survival

not violence

but you have seen much more of the world than i have

and i don't think you would intentionally mislead me

thnk you for your enlightenment

I think everyone is missing the point.

The point isn’t to imply that we should ignore injustice.

Nor is it the point that the news shouldn't cover it.

The point is simply that the vast majority of mankind is actually good.

People keep implying that mankind is inherently evil.

But the statistics show just the opposite.

Overall, mankind is inherently good.

Surely if God comes to earth and finds that 90% of the people are well-behaved and only 10% are misbehaving then overall God is going to see that mankind is inherently good, not inherently evil.

And surely God would not view soldiers as being evil. Men who are doing their duty because their country asked them to cannot be chalked up as being evil. They are merely doing what their country asked them to do.

The real criminals who are doing nasty things are in the minority. The commander-in-chiefs who are excuting unjust wars are in the minority.

Even accepting what Spider suggests about slavery. The fact that slavery may affect a lot of people doesn’t imply that a lot of people are doing it. It only takes a few criminals to create a lot of victims. The vast majority of people oppose slavery and abuse.

Overall, I think the observations suggest that mankind is inherently good.

Why let a few bad apples represent mankind’s overall moral integrity?

Do criminals represent YOU?

If not, then why let them be representative of the human condition?

It simply isn’t true that mankind is inherently evil.

It’s a crock of bull.

That's all I'm really saying.

very good point magic man

but if man kind destroys

the living conditions

through there apathic attitude

is not the evil not evil inheritable

for not trying to stop it

thus sitting back

and accepting the

stasis quo

just a thought

Your kidding, right?

I agree with you completely Robin.

But I don’t seem mankind destroying his environment due to apathy.

As mankind became technological he had no clue where it was leading.

As a society we’ve become dependent on this throw-away lifestyle now.

I don’t think it was due to apathy as much as ignorance, and ignorance in and of itself is not evil. You can’t blame people for being stupid. People aren’t any more responsible for their IQ’s than they are for the color of their eyes.

Way back when I was still in my teens I could see where things were going and I argued way back then that society as a whole needed to do two things, a) Start living more back-to-basics lifestyles, and b) Quit having so many offspring.

Well, I’m 58 years old and neither of those two things are anywhere near being on the political table for modern society.

Is this because political leaders are evil? Or just plain stupid?

Personally I believe it’s the latter.

So I will agree that overall mankind is inherently stupid.

That I won’t argue with.

I’m just not prepared to equate stupidity with being inherently evil.

Di said,

"As we are forced to see more and more of a world view, as globalisation continues to involve us in 'other' realms; it's only natural that we see violence we were never aware of before. Thus people believe there is MORE violence, when actually they have not considered their realm of perspective for violence has increaced as well. "

Di, truth be known, 'Mr and Ms Jo Average' don't see what is in front of them...what's happening over their back fence, the three wise monkeys...'Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil'...

Media, TV, Internet news is funded by wealthy conglomerates that trickle feed the masses, what it is they wish them to think, with fingers in many world pies, (politics, business, finance).

'Loungeroom experiences', safe in the artificially cooled or warmed environs that they, Mr and Ms Average, have created...buffered from the realities, of what is happening on their doorsteps.

Mr and/or Ms Average are trickle fed emotional responses, through Newcasts, a little gasp here, a moment of indignation, a tear of empathy and then............ onto the weather, but nothing exposing, or raw enough to have them act.

Sedated...and safe in their climate controlled bubbles...

The demographics of this town are an ideal model, for 'middle' and reasonably affluent Australia...isolated with limited outside influences, physical space abounds..

Yet statistically this town is on par with the highest levels of crime, and reported acts of violence, as the worst low income city suburb, in this state, which the nation and media, veiws as a 'bad area', a deeply troubled portion of society.

Horrendous...for a population of 2500...and affluent...and these statistics are ONLY reported acts of violence.

I know this as fact, because I helped compile the statistics for State Government to petition for more law enforcement.

And yet I live in paradise, no locked doors, keys left in the car...I walk the streets at night if I choose...immense personal freedom...intimate closeness amongst the village...because I choose to not succumb to fear.

It is all relative...I agree.

However, humans are violent, as is Nature, when we use the parameters of violence in the same context...humans are violent against Nature...

Frustration, greed, envy, fear, can all manifest in violence....it is just how we decide to veiw it, as to whether we feel humans are violent...

very true lee

as we have both agreed on in the past

(insert thumbs up emoticon here)

and magic man

i did not say environment on purpose

there are more things involved

with living conditions

than the environment

I look at children and I have to think that mankind is inherently good...

Seems like everyone starts out good. But things happen... and people change- some weak, some desperate, some pushed and pulled beyond their tolerences...

and they do things they know are wrong... some even become bad people... or in any case dangerous people...

But I agree Abra, most people are good. Most people are doing the best they can...

yep

i have yet to see a baby

be prejudice

My daughter doesn't like black men. Her mother and both of her brothers are black. Her uncle and cousin are both black. We don't know where she gets it.

how old i your daughter spidey

Wow that's sad spider. Yes, her age would seem relevent. If she is still quite young it seems like something must have frightened her...

She's six. She's felt that way since she was a baby, she would cry whenever a black man entered the room.

Another example of sinful behavior in children is that they start lying at the age of six months.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/07/01/scibaby101.xml

Spider wrote:
“Another example of sinful behavior in children is that they start lying at the age of six months.”

In my mind this is about as perverted as religion can get. To claim that six month old children are sinful because they are lying is the most demented use of religion I can imagine.

If the definition of ‘sin’ is to go against the will of God then a six month old child can’t possibly sin because they don’t yet even understand the concept of God, much less have a clue what God expects from them.

This is where religions like Christianity get so far off track it isn’t even funny.

People seem to forget that to sin is to go against the will of God. They just look at all the rule and think that it’s simply a sin to break a rule. But that kind of thinking totally misses the point.

In fact, if it’s a sin is to go against the will of God, and a Christian believes that Jesus was God, then it is a sin to judge others because this was clearly against the will of Jesus. Jesus asked that we not judge others.

So the very act of judging that a six month old child is sinning because they are lying would then be a sin for someone who is mature enough to have understood Jesus and believes that Jesus is God.

There reason Jesus told us not to judge the morals of others is because judging the morals of others is neither important nor productive. We can’t even know whether the acts of others are truly sins without understanding the reasons for those acts. Perhaps what we thought were sins because they appear to break rules are not sins at all in the eyes of God. This is why is it wrong to judge the morals of others. Let God be the judge.

I personally don’t believe that a six month old child is capable of sinning. All that is happening is that they are falling prey to the illusion of the ego, they are protecting their ego from judgmental adults. It’s a perfectly natural phenomenon and there is nothing inherently sinful about it. It’s part of a natural learning process as their cognizance develops.

It’s perfectly natural for all humans to fall prey to the illusion of the ego. That, in and of itself, is not sinful. However, as they grow if they begin to give that ego priority over other people to the point where they are doing things that hurt other people to satisfy their illusion of an ego, then they have become infatuated with their ego. They worship it above all else, including the will of god which is their spirit.

When Jesus taught that we must be born again, this is precisely what he was talking about. To be ‘born again’ means to be awaked from the illusion of the ego. To be born into ‘spirit’ rather than ego. If we do the things that Jesus taught we will automatically move away from the ego and into the spirit. We will be born again.

The ego is to believe that we are separate individuals. We might go to heaven whilst someone else might go to hell. It’s all about saving our individual self. That egotistical picture of religion just reinforces the picture of the ego. That’s Christianity backfiring. Doing just the opposite of what Jesus taught. Running around pointing the judgmental finger of sin at everyone we can. That’s Christianity gone awry.

If we actually do what Jesus taught and treat everyone with love and respect without judgment then we will come to know the spirit. And the ego will dissolve away without a trace.

This is the true essence of religion. It’s not about laws that are carved in stone. It’s about finding our way into a place where we have no desire to break those laws without even knowing that they are. Only then have we truly been saved from the ego. By the way, Satan is just a metaphor for the ego. There is no entity called Satan. Satan is just the illusion of the ego, and nothing more. A phantom of our own imaginations.

Passing judgment on the sinful nature of six month old children is the epitome of religion gone awry.

Abracadabra,

Person X kills Person Y.
Person Z says "Person X broke the law by killing Person Y"
Person Z has not judged Person X, person Z has made a statement of fact based on the law.

Abracadabra,

"In my mind this is about as perverted as religion can get. To claim that six month old children are sinful because they are lying is the most demented use of religion I can imagine. "

I'm a self-taught Christian. I don't go to Chruch and I don't belong to a Chruch. I stated my opinion, I didn't make a statement of belief for a Chruch or Christianity in general. So if by "religion" you meant Christianity, I think you are wrong in your subject. If you meant "SpiderCMB's religious beliefs" then you have the right subject. I realize that you believe in subjective morality, which colors your view of Christianity and my own personal religious convictions. But I believe subjective morality breaks down under scrutiny. Your view of absolute right and wrong is based on your own personal beliefs, which means you cannot sin and you are never wrong. If everyone took that stance, the world would be chaos. I, however, believe in absolute morals, meaning that it's always wrong to commit murder, even if the guy is a very bad man. It's always wrong to lust, even if the object of your affection is not aware of your feelings. It is always wrong to lie, even if no evil comes of it, becaue the lie itself is evil. I think the world would be a better place if we could all live and let live, without feeling the need to demean another's religious beliefs simply because we disagree with them.

Very true Spider,

But notice that there wasn't any mention of sin in your X, Y, Z statement.

My point is that sin isn't about laws. It's about KNOWINGLY going against the will of God.

You can't just point to a commandment, say that it's been broken, and therefore conclude that someone has sinned.

Just because it might appear to you that other people might be breaking God’s laws, you can't know whether they are actually sinning. Only God can know whether or not the person had gone against his will. This is why we aren't supposed to judge others.

Knowing the laws is not enough.

You can say that children lie, but you can’t say that they have committed a sin.

Spider wrote:
“Your view of absolute right and wrong is based on your own personal beliefs, which means you cannot sin and you are never wrong. If everyone took that stance, the world would be chaos”

You jump to all the wrong conclusions.

You say that if everyone took my stance the world would be in chaos. But nothing could be further from the truth.

If everyone were like me there would be no violence at all. There wouldn’t even be need for police, or locks and keys. People could leave their money laying out in the open with absolutely no fear of anyone taking it. There would be no need for the word "crime", we could drop it from the dictionary.

You jump to conclusions and think they have substance when in reality they are so mislead that you have absolutely no clue what you are even talking about.

If the only thing that keeps you from doing bad things is the fear of punishment or the promise of a free ticket to an eternal Disneyland I seriously feel sorry for you Spider.

Abracadabra,

I disagree, violating God's laws is sin. God's laws are absolutes. You believe in subjective morality, which means you can lie without sinning, as long as (I think I'm close, correct me if I'm wrong) no evil comes from it. According to the Bible, lying is a sin, regardless of why you lied. When a Christian says "sin" they are probably speaking of breaking one or more commandments. Since everyone who goes to heaven is a sinner, saying that someone sinned isn't judging (condemning), it's simply pointing out that they broke one of God's laws. We each of a conscience, which warns us when we break one of God's laws, but the conscience sometimes has to be encouraged to do it's job. That's the purpose of the 10 commandments (and the 605 others), to make the conscience raw so that it will warn us. The reality is that to a Christian, the written law is the minimum. Just as Jesus taught that "Thou shall not commit adultry" also covers lust. The minimum of the written context is adultry, but the spiritual context dwelves into any sexual immorality, including just thinking about sex. I realize that you have a different view on sin, but I am speaking from a Christian perspective or at the very least from my own persepctive. I can't emphasize this enough, according to Christianity, only sinners will go to heaven. And because only sinners go to heaven, saying that someone is sinning is in no way judging the person, it's a comment on their actions.