------------ scripture is not about who is the better debater or the better theologian or the better researcher or better anything..... if one has the spirit of truth and holiness, is simply explained and understood simply as it is. and all understanding and wisdom of the truth comes from God. and in all things, it is God that ought to be glorified, and not anything that was created by Him.

------------ there is really no point of contention or convincing in the matter. scripture is meant for the spirit, not the physical. and although jesus preached, taught and lived in a manner that needs physical example and evidence, so that we might be able to understand....in the end, what he is pertaining to are spiritual matters. and spiritual matters are only understood with the help of the spirit of holiness that gives us the wisdom and understanding of the true meaning and nature of God.

when jesus, as the son of God, taught us to pray "Our Father, who art in heaven..."...is that not enough for you to understand that he treats us as brothers and sisters in faith...?...that through jesus we can actually call God as "our Father" as well...?

When we pray father who art in heaven, we are speaking TO Jesus.

I don't.
God is God.
Jesus is not God.
I pray to God, through Christ.... not to Christ.

I cannot accept that God was born of human...that implies a lack of being God. How can the creator become a created...?
But i can accept that God would send His only begotten son to become man in order to become the way through which human salvation can be achieved...that would imply love through faith and humility, which is the essence and purpose of the scriptures.

Genesis 2:4

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Whom do you think "Lord God" is? And why is it different then Genesis 1 which is virtually the same thing?

And whom do you think the following verse is referring to and what scriptual evidence do you have to support as such?

John 1:3

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

"Lord" is a term used pertaining to any one that is higher in position.... If i remember correctly, even angels were addressed as "my lord"

I have also referenced john 1 in a different thread pertaining to the same topic we are discussing currently...

God created everything by the mere utterance of "let there be" so and so...
It was by "His word" that everything was created. The Word was with God and the Word was God, in the beginning.

And the word was made flesh... This is now the separation of God and the word... The word became flesh, which is now the son of God --jesus.. And he carried out the will and words or commands of his Father.

He is the incarnated Word of God, also considered as son of God....speaking and acting on behalf of God. But he is not God, for God is of divine, not of flesh... But jesus is of flesh, and ascended into heaven as such. So he can never be the same as God.

God's word had been carried out as is... jesus, being the incarnate word of God, also did exactly that. That is why everything was made through him, through the "word of God". But still in essence, not the same nor equal to God.

May the holy spirit guide you in faith and understanding.

Correct and incorrect. "Lord" is a higher position, but never addressed towards the angels if I'm not mistaken. "Lord" esepcially "Lord God" is only addressed to Jesus Christ which later gets shorter to just "Lord" and is why it's capitolized when speaking of Jesus.

I won't pick apart statement by stament of the rest of your post. But in this context of what is being said "Word" is translated from "Logos" which means "God with us". And thus why Jesus is referred to as "the Word/logos" as Jesus is our God dwelling with us in the flesh.

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock2 I will build my church, and the gates of hell3 shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed4 in heaven.” 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

...and Ray Stevens was his own grandpa in a song. Jesus was a man. Whether divine or divinely inspired, a man. Some of the last words attributed to this character:

Matthew 27:46 (also Mark 15:34)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

John 10:18 of his life, "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

Clearly the subject himself is referring to God as his father which conversely makes him the son. Who can tap dance around that?

While I may look like and act like my father and share DNA, I am not the same entity as my dear ol dad. If Jesus considered himself and God the same being, or if they indeed were/are, why the semantics?

Furthermore, if God wanted to make himself "incarnate" there was no need to use the body of a human woman who then committed adultery against God by consorting with "Joseph" and mothering more children.

And - the names of Jesus' sisters appears where in the bible? I have never seen them there. They are mentioned in Islamic texts but I am unaware of any "christian" corroboration.

BTW, didn't Jesus say something about "my temple should be a house of prayer but you have made it a den of thieves?"

Jesus is indeed the word of God made flesh...his actions and teachings are the personified will of God, that has been made manifest in this sinful world. To see him as such is to see God's will and commandments dwelling with us in the flesh.

We are called to follow in christ's example, and his teaching were never for us to worship him as God.

To worship jesus, who is of flesh, and resurrected and ascended with flesh, in place of the divine God, is idolatry.


3 ��You shall have.. .. no other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an .. image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath . or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


God will not contradict himself and make something in the form and image of flesh and blood for us to make and call as a god ourselves.


Why would you say that God and jesus creates this farce of calling each other as father and son, if they are just one and the same? Why would you say that God needs to represent himself as being something else than what he is by doing this? Such is a deception, which a true living God would never resort to.

I find it unacceptable that the one or two verses that you have cited, would be interpreted and used to misconstrue the entirety of what scripture has pointed out about the nature of God and jesus.

May the Lord rebuke anyone of such false teachings, and may the spirit of holiness and truth guide each of us in our search.

Please do keep in mind whom said the verse in question you mention. Notice it says "God" spake all these words, "I am the Lord thy God"... Any reference to Lord God or any possible combinations of those two words is in reference to the only "LORD" God there is, Jesus Christ. Of course being old testament it was before he had the title "Jesus" as he didn't get that alias until he came to the world in the flesh, but nevertheless is the same being from Genesis to Revelations.

Exodus 20

20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Why do you put so much separation between God and his creation, us? We are in fact made in the image of Christ our God, so how is the Lord God coming to Earth in the flesh deception? Why is it representing something other then what he truly is? And they are not "one in the same". They are "one" just as a family is "one" or suppose to be "one". Working together as one unit to accomplish the common goal.

Where does Jesus ever claim to be the same being as God the father? Yes he says "My father and I are one" but he wasn't speaking of the physical being. If you need a reference of these verses explaining their original meaning I'm sure I can find you some if you don't wish to look it up on the internet yourself. And in the same breath he speaks of us being the body of Christ, therefore displaying it's a parable meant statement and not literally meaning they are the same entity.

you are right, they are one in purpose, and are separate entities

God is God

Jesus is the son of God

therefore, Jesus is not God

hence, we do not treat Jesus as the same as God

But Jesus and the father are one "God". The word "God" is a title, it's not an entity. Thus why we are told we are gods eg., "know ye not that ye are gods", "I have said ye are gods", "God of gods, judge of judges" ect. And also told Jesus is our God, "do not tempt the lord thy God" "I am the Lord thy God that brought you out of egypt" ect. But NEVER refers to his father, his God as our father or our God, only ever says he personally is our God. And yet with all these different mentions of "god" there is but one God. Because the term "God" means authority, and or being of authority over another(s). We are referenced as "gods" as we were given dominion over the beasts of this world, or given "authority" over them. But again in the end, there is but one God for Jesus Christ is God of gods.

jesus came to earth and ascended into heaven as flesh, according to the will of God.

there is one God, and jesus is the son of this one God. therefore, he is not God.

he is given authority to judge the world by God.---->"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son

but even jesus does not know when the judgement day will come ----> "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


so no...jesus christ is not God, but he is in fact, the Son of God. and i stress this difference because Jesus is of the flesh. To worship him as God, is idolatry .

Think Jesus disagrees with you.


Deuteronomy 6:15

15 (For the Lord thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.


Please give us a verse that tells us anyone/anything else besides Jesus Christ himself as being our God.

i think that is what many of the previous verses used have been stating already...and not only by myself, but many others as well... to repost them would only result in another never-ending cycle of the same topic.

but in essence...


God is God.

jesus is the living incarnate word of God, or the word made flesh.

God is not flesh, nor anything he has created as flesh.

hence, jesus is not God, because jesus is of the flesh.



jesus recognized his father in heaven, as he was acknowledged by God to be His son.

God is the father, jesus is the son. hence, jesus does not have equal status as God



jesus is the son of God in whom was given by God the authority of all things, hence we call him lord.

but not even jesus knows when the judgement day will come, only God knows. hence he is not God, because God is all-knowing.



i do not see a discrepancy in this with respect to the verse that you just used, since it is from a time when the word of God was still with God and has not yet been made into flesh. God does not need an "alias" nor does he need to take the role of being both Son and Father and acting out such a show by talking to himself as each other. God is God and He is who He is. And jesus is His only begotten son in whom he has given authority of the world. nobody comes to the Father except through the son. he is God our Father, because he created everything, but he did so through his son. therefore, God is God and Jesus is not God.


i will not deign to speak for God nor Christ in the matter. but i am only stating and defending God and my belief of what i hold to be true, based on what i have read, understood, felt and experienced to be so regarding this matter --- which is that God is God and Jesus is the Son of God, and therefore is not equal to God himself.

for even the son of God can be insulted and persecuted, but to do so against God and the spirit, is a sin without forgiveness.

let the holy spirit move and reprove each one as according to the will of God the Father, through our lord Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Saviour. Amen.

Please do give a verse(s) where Jesus refers to anyone/anything else besides him to be our God. Not just a reference of Jesus saying "my God" but where he actually says our God. I only know of Jesus proclaiming to be our God. We are not brothers and sister with Jesus Christ.

jesus says that his Father is our Father, and his God is our God

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


jesus is the one who redeemed us to God...he did not redeem us to himself...

9And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation;