inspired by EyeAm,,,,,,and a previous thread,,,

what do you think inspired your idea of what a MAN is?

and no, I do not mean simply a biological male,,,,but the attributes that seperates that male from 'boys'?


for me it was a Kipling poem, entitled IF
(my mom often read to us, this and 'Casey at the Bat' were two of my favorites)



If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!





***..I believe this poem largely inspired my views and my goal of being balanced,, in general and why my support always went to Barack OBama

Umm..I believe most men learn how to be a man.. from their fathers..
Are at least what a man is..
Then the rest of it ..we just make up as we go..lol.. spits on the floor scratches his genitals and walks out of the room..lmao..wink.

Everyone has their own ideas.

Kipling, of course, said it well.

But if that is being a "man", then what is "being a woman"?

Just the opposite? The same but slightly different?

Could be Kipling should have used the word "human".

Thanks for posting IF msharmony. First time I read it. no1phd is more on track with most of us men.

My experience in society and with group/social hierarchy.

e.g.:

it's just as important to experience, in society, how their fathers (and others a person has defined as "men") are treated, or responded to, by women, and people in general (men vs. not men).
If that is not part of the equation motivating behavior and identity then at best people simply form a facade, or shell, meant to protect themselves. Monkey see monkey do, possibly just for a treat or to posture.

there are so many things that are transferrable in this life

I took the poem to be from the perception of a father trying to teach his son

but yes, the same could apply for a mother teaching a daughter

Given the century Kipling wrote in, and the things he wrote about, yes "If" is certainly a father talking to a son.

But, part of the brilliance of somebody like Kipling is that his writing transcends generations, and possibly genders.

If you ever have some time, I highly recommend reading some of his other poems. "The girl from Mandalay" is one of my favorites. But it's a personal thing.

something also about being a woman,, another gem passed on by my elders to me


retty women wonder where my secret lies.
I'm not cute or built to suit a fashion model's size
But when I start to tell them,
They think I'm telling lies.
I say,
It's in the reach of my arms
The span of my hips,
The stride of my step,
The curl of my lips.
I'm a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That's me.

I walk into a room
Just as cool as you please,
And to a man,
The fellows stand or
Fall down on their knees.
Then they swarm around me,
A hive of honey bees.
I say,
It's the fire in my eyes,
And the flash of my teeth,
The swing in my waist,
And the joy in my feet.
I'm a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That's me.

Men themselves have wondered
What they see in me.
They try so much
But they can't touch
My inner mystery.
When I try to show them
They say they still can't see.
I say,
It's in the arch of my back,
The sun of my smile,
The ride of my breasts,
The grace of my style.
I'm a woman

Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That's me.

Now you understand
Just why my head's not bowed.
I don't shout or jump about
Or have to talk real loud.
When you see me passing
It ought to make you proud.
I say,
It's in the click of my heels,
The bend of my hair,
the palm of my hand,
The need of my care,
'Cause I'm a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That's me.

As with so many things, I have actually looked back into my own early life, and tried to carefully work out how I came to have the viewpoints I do.

And you know, I'm not entirely sure in this case.

I do very much like Kipling's poem, though I never read the entire thing before, and I had already become the man I am, before I heard that there was any more to it than the partial phrase "If you can keep your head, while all around you are losing theirs."

As far back as I can remember (which is very long way back now), I had a sense that "grownups" did things differently than children, and that it was up to each child to learn how to BE grown up.

I don't know why, but within my own family, we ALL concluded silently, that we had to coordinate with each other, and with the rest of the world. Not in the sense that we were powerless, rather in the sense that simple dominance over others, was not a legitimate mode of behavior.

I know that a lot of HOW I came to "work the world" came from dealing with my father, because he gave reasons and made arguments for everything. So I rapidly started working up my own arguments to try to get my way, rather than simply declaring that I wanted something.

I also sort of discovered that I am one of the "keep your head" types, by my nature. That is for several separate small reasons as well.

Partly, it's because I have never felt powerful, physically. Not being powerful, meant that in order to get my way with ANYTHING AT ALL, I had to persuade my way along. Partly, it's because I became a ware very early on, that first impressions are often false, and that careful scrutiny of details is necessary to deal with reality.

Anyway. Something to consider in this, is the side issue, of what makes someone a SUCCESSFUL grownup. Some people appreciate the "Kipling man," and some reward the people who go the opposite way, as being "men of action."

There are lots of qualitys I admire in so called real men.

One is the ability to say sorry. I'm amazed how many men see it as a weakness.

Another is the willingness to show emotion.

Thanx for the poems, I didn't read them but I have heard them in the past as the titles sound familiar to me. I don't really do poems unless they are set to music I like.

I didn't really have a father figure in my life. Didn't really have a mother figure either. My adolescence and teen years consisted of me running the streets and hating being around my drunken parents. Police were my limiters. I was intelligent enough to know that I had to graduate school and get a trade to have some semblance of a life. Then I joined the service.

They taught me responsibility, integrity and commitment. Did I look up to any one person as the model of a man? Not really. They taught me how to kill and when to kill. Taught me survival skills. Up until I met my X I was pseudo- suicidal. My view of life was that I was a mistake and shouldn't be here. A bastard child of a bar whore.

When I committed to my marriage vows I dedicated myself to be the man that society said was a man. I did a pretty good job at playing the part. This macho **** that I portrayed went on until my first child arrived. I decided "screw society" and dedicated myself to providing for my family. As the rest of my children came and they got older I attempted to teach them morals and decision skills so they did not feel about life like I always had.

I sacrificed my wealth, my dreams and my health in favor of providing a rich and fulfilling environment for my family. I went to work everyday and came home to my family every night. I expressed my full emotional spectrum so they could see how I handled those feelings. We laughed, cried and had serious moments together. I showed them how to pay bills, maintain a house and cook food. At 14 years, I realized I had made a mistake in choosing my X. I stayed and provided until every child was grown and on their own. Then I ended the charade.

Recently, at Christmas time, the X informed me what I had expected for years. None of my children are actually mine. I am dad to four but father to none. I am grand dad to 14 but grandfather to none. I analyzed my idea of a man. I realize that I am a man no matter what society says a man is. I am a honest man that places no value in the image of others. This makes me a self-imposed social outcast.

I refuse to be something I am not. Been there, done that.
I refuse to be what you think I should be. I am not you.
I am courteous, calm and content. I treat people I meet with respect but I do not play into their delusions.
I keep my word and dedicate myself to those I determine to be special.

I am a man because I have the courage and determination to be myself.

If you can talk to crowds and keep your virtue <3 <3 3

Recently, at Christmas time, the X informed me what I had expected for years. None of my children are actually mine. I am dad to four but father to none.



How awful! What a xunt your ex is...