I have heard the train of thought that if person A expects something of person B, person A will no longer appreciate it when person B delivers that something

I don't find this to be true for myself, In my experience, the feelings are not mutually exclusive

an expectation is based only on our perception of what 'should' happen

and appreciation is based, for me, in acknowledging what didn't HAVE to happen

so, although I expect the guy to open the door , based on my belief that he 'should' do it

I still appreciate it any and every time he does, based on my knowledge that he did not HAVE to do it


I know women that would not say thank you or feel a sense of appreciation for such a thing because of their belief that the man is 'supposed' to be doing this

do you think expectation can still include appreciation?

Depends on a lot of things.

If Person A expects a kidney from Person B, their appreciation is going to be a lot longer lived (if they're a "normal" or "average" person) than if Person A expects Person B to pick up their socks and they do so.

Unless you are referring to consistent expectations.
Person B has always shown up for work at 7 o'clock sharp.
Person A appreciated Person B's punctuality when B was a new employee.
10 years later Person A takes it for granted Person B will show up at 7 o'clock sharp and would only really notice or care if Person B started showing up late.

You naturally build tolerances against emotional reactions to consistent events.
Otherwise you'd be startled and scared every time you flushed the toilet.


That has more to do with social contracts and communication.
Most communication is indirect.
If someone opens the door for you, they expect you to be grateful.
You being grateful is part of the social contract of reciprocity.
They do something for you, you do something commensurate for them, general socialization determines what defines commensurate.

In order to convey gratitude it has to be communicated at the very least indirectly (nod of the head, lowering of the head, quick smile, something).
In order for you to honestly convey gratitude you have to make yourself feel it.
You can't honestly communicate what isn't honestly there.
You also can't keep yourself from feeling what is automatically generated.

If you don't honestly communicate gratitude it leads to the possibility of miscommunication, which can be seen as lies, being judged a liar tends to get people ostracized in the long run, or not fulfilling the social contract, which communicates that you may be a stranger (from a different group) to normalized rules of the prevailing culture, stranger = danger.


That doesn't mean they aren't communicating gratitude when someone opens the door for them, they may simply be communicating it indirectly in a different way.


It can.
It doesn't have to.
Sometimes it's there but not recognized.
Sometimes it's not there, but something else is erroneously recognized as appreciation.

Have you never given money to a charity? Most of them hound you relentlessly after your first donation.

I think it should. A good deed done whether or not through expectation such as 'good manners', should be acknowledged, not to do so perhaps shows either a lack of respect for 'good manners', or the person having done the good deed, this is just my opinion.

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The devil, as some say, is in the details with things like this.

I personally have seen that the IDEAL way to conduct oneself, is as msharmony suggests:

1. recognize consciously that your EXPECTATIONS are not COMMANDMENTS, but rather customs, or even wishes.

2. therefore APPRECIATE that someone VOLUNTARILY supports those "expectations" in a positive manner.

However, in my own life, though I have experienced some instances that went that way, I have unfortunately experienced many more instances where the two concepts were, shall we say, defined differently.

Too many people have thought that EXPECTATIONS need not be voiced, and so have quietly held inner trials when they weren't met, and convicted the person they had expectations about, of a variety of defects.

And too, I have often witnessed or experienced both sides of a phenomenon, where because expectations were voiced, the fact that the person tried to fulfill them, was devalued.

Simple example, that caused me to have tremendous anxiety about such, are gift-giving days. When the woman I actually did love, told me in advance what she would like to receive, if I got it for her, she thought that the fact she had to tell me, meant I wasn't thoughtful or caring at all, just dutiful and subservient. And there are few things most American females despise more, than a subservient male. This repeated phenomenon made all gift-giving holidays into lose-lose situations for me. The best I could manage, was to get something that she didn't want, and I would be excused for having at least tried, but because I am the oversensitive type, I would feel like a failure anyway.

And if she went through the motions of being appreciative, I felt even worse, because I could easily tell that the appreciation wasn't sincere.

In other words, there is a lot of subtle psychology involved with these concepts, and it's a lot trickier to deal with them, than many people recognize.

Another thought-provoking topic from msharmony. I appreciate it and now I am starting to expect these types of subjects from you. Something you have taught me and I have learned.

I expected a social observation from ciretom and I appreciate it that he has given one in the reply. It is something I learned to expect from reading his replies.

Now, what do you expect from me? Can you appreciate anything I add to the discussion? Here goes my view...

A few years ago I was dangerously close to suicide. I sought professional help and she gave me excerpts of her books during our sessions. Mainly on building and maintaining self-worth. I always had a self-impression that I was not good enough. This is why I concentrate my replies to a personal observation rather than a social one. I believe I must understand myself before I can understand others.

Social structures are established from expectations, both personal and the expectations of others. Laws in the land are established because a group of people expect another group of people to heed them. Once in effect, all people of that land are expected to abide by them. Appreciation of those laws has no bearing on their validity, only agreement. I appreciate that you did not kill me but the reason you did not kill me was not based on my appreciation.

One of the things I learned was that I set expectations for myself constantly. I go to bed at night expecting to wake when rested. I expect to do many things and while inside, at a deep level, I appreciate achieving those expectations but I don't actively acknowledge every one.

When any expectation is not fulfilled to satisfaction it becomes a focus. Personal and social. I see someone approaching a door with me. I fully expect myself to hold the door for them. If they arrive at the door first and hold the door for me I appreciate it. Feeling that my expectation was fulfilled I often say something to them like "I was going to get that for you but you beat me to it". I thank them and let it go.
If they let the door close in my face it saddens me a little but I try to understand that my expectations may not be the same as theirs. I don't chastise them, I just open the door and go about my business.

Thru my life I was taught unrealistic expectations by people seemingly having more wisdom than I.
Things like:
> If you work hard you will succeed.
> If you treat people right they will treat you right.
> If you have love you need nothing else.
> It's going to be alright in the end.
> Sincerity, dedication and commitment to something is justified.
I lived under the expectation that they knew what they were talking about and that they were right.
When those expectations were not fulfilled, I felt that I had failed in some way. It created a self-propagating spiral into depression within me. I allowed someone else's expectations to become my own.

I learned that expectations are most important when they deal with me personally. I expect to open and hold doors for people. When I do what I expected I get personal satisfaction from being who I know I am. It doesn't really matter if the other person shows me appreciation. I appreciate it and that is what matters. It is me I have to live with.

IF I expect something from another I am trying to control them. When they don't perform to my expectations I used to judge them but now I understand that they are their own person, just like me.
When they do perform to my expectations I tend to be appreciative in some way. Not really because of their action fulfilling my expectation but it shows me that they have similar expectations. It justifies my own expectations.

When dealing with others I tend to expect delusional and narcissistic attitudes from them. It is an observation that is made by me because of what I have learned to recognize trying to understand myself.
Just because I expect those things in others does not mean I can't tolerate them. When someone comes along a breaks those expectations I tend to appreciate it. Not because of something they do but because of the contrast to my own expectations.

When I look at myself I expect to find delusions. I have succeeded in removing many of my delusions but I expect that there are still many more.
I appreciate the clarity I get from removing a delusion. For awhile I beat myself up because I was deluded. Lately my clarity has allowed me to appreciate my self-honesty instead.
I expect that there will be some delusions that I will remove that are vital to my own sense of self. Reality is harsh. I expect problems when that happens. It is hard to re-delude once a delusion is stripped away.
I expect to need to seek more professional help when that happens. Hopefully that help will be educated enough to deal with the issues.
(Hopefully, because I am increasingly becoming resistant to the lies and ideas that are used to control me)

Appreciation tends to cause gratitude. Gratitude is an expression of appreciation but appreciation does not require gratitude.

Expectation is attempting to forecast events or situations based on your life experiences of similar outcomes.
It demands people and situations perform according to what you have previously witnessed.

Expectations go unfulfilled because life if full of changes that can't be quantified to a specific reality.
Many people do not exist in reality. They exist in a delusion of what they expect reality is. I learned this by looking at reality. Reality both enlightens and burns.

In dating/courting mode (this is a dating site), people tend to use their past experiences to judge the other to see if they are what they expect them to be. It is often a sound method to find someone just right for what you expect out of a relationship. When they find who they seek, they show appreciations to the other for justifying their expectations by sharing portions of their lives with each other.
When their expectations are not matched by someone, they move on, continuing to seek the one that matches their expectations. Sometimes they find someone that exceeds their expectations. People tend to believe this is a 'good thing' but in actuality exceeding is not matching.
This questions one's personal expectations. "Are my expectations too low or high?" and requires them to reassess their own expectations for match qualification.
It is fluid/dynamic/unpredictable.
Another thing that people do when seeking a match is to assess which expectations must be met and which, if not met, causes them to move on to the next candidate.

Our expectations play a significant role in dating/courting.
More so than appreciation.

I agree ... I like the ones that are in your cities that ask for something when your shopping ... I don't give over the phone anymore ... and I also ask where it is going and to whom ...in stores if not clear ... then I don't give ... I feel bad that I can not donate to a charity I once did... for a family member ... but just can't afford it anymore ... did I get off topic lol and their right to hold the door or not ... I try to hold it for men and women ... and yes is a nice gesture but some don't care anyway or the other... they will just let the door close on you ... sometimes my mood will go if I do hold the door and they don't say thank you ... I will say it for them out loud it can embarrass them ... but I try and say thank you all the time ... for most service things...

I completely agree with your thoughts.

I agree.