Topic: Justice for me, buit not for thee
msharmony's photo
Mon 06/15/20 12:36 PM
These are interesting times, for sure. And, at least for me, they seem to be shining a light on the capacity for humans to not see a problem until or unless it affects them personally.

For instance, some people are outraged at living in what feels like a police state, being kept from freely walking about without being treated as criminal, yet minorities in many places have lived like that forever. The answer was 'if you have nothing to hide, why is it a problem?" Or "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." And now, people with 'nothing to hide' and who are not doing anything 'wrong' are finding it unbearable to be spending a few months out of their lives living this way.

Many people and companies are finding it necessary to have some type of financial relief when, through no real fault of their own, they are found without income. For many others, who also had previously found themselves in need of some financial relief, they were just told they shouldn't have what was 'other peoples money' or they should only get what they 'earn'.

I do not know if karma is a thing. But this does seem a huge karmic wake up call for some folks who were previously so quick to dismiss what others go through. In a way, I actually hope that becomes the silver lining in all of this. Perspective.

I am somewhat more hopeful when I see people from all walks of life coming together over the most recent overzealous police caused death. Some things really are not about merit or deserving, some things are just cultural brainwashing of whose lives have value and whose does not.

Has anyone in these threads found that maybe their sense of empathy has become a bit stronger throughout all of this?

Tom4Uhere's photo
Mon 06/15/20 01:17 PM
laugh
I find your moral soapbox so amusing!
20 years ago I was on a similar one.
Now I just don't care.
Society is insane.
Still pretty funny tho.
tongue2

msharmony's photo
Mon 06/15/20 01:55 PM
Edited by msharmony on Mon 06/15/20 01:55 PM


laugh
I find your moral soapbox so amusing!
20 years ago I was on a similar one.
Now I just don't care.
Society is insane.
Still pretty funny tho.
tongue2


IF having opinions of right and wrong makes for a soapbox, I should hope everyone has their own. Perhaps it takes the view from a moral soapbox to judge
other moral soap boxes. Not funny, just real life. I will take the response as a No to my question.




mysticalview21's photo
Mon 06/15/20 03:29 PM

These are interesting times, for sure. And, at least for me, they seem to be shining a light on the capacity for humans to not see a problem until or unless it affects them personally.

For instance, some people are outraged at living in what feels like a police state, being kept from freely walking about without being treated as criminal, yet minorities in many places have lived like that forever. The answer was 'if you have nothing to hide, why is it a problem?" Or "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." And now, people with 'nothing to hide' and who are not doing anything 'wrong' are finding it unbearable to be spending a few months out of their lives living this way.

Many people and companies are finding it necessary to have some type of financial relief when, through no real fault of their own, they are found without income. For many others, who also had previously found themselves in need of some financial relief, they were just told they shouldn't have what was 'other peoples money' or they should only get what they 'earn'.

I do not know if karma is a thing. But this does seem a huge karmic wake up call for some folks who were previously so quick to dismiss what others go through. In a way, I actually hope that becomes the silver lining in all of this. Perspective.

I am somewhat more hopeful when I see people from all walks of life coming together over the most recent overzealous police caused death. Some things really are not about merit or deserving, some things are just cultural brainwashing of whose lives have value and whose does not.

Has anyone in these threads found that maybe their sense of empathy has become a bit stronger throughout all of this?



No ... I have not changes ... I have always had empathy for people ...

and with more blacks... seem to be more of a movement now... with pictures and reporting ... is good for the public to see what has happened over the yrs ... I started to get angry long ago ... about shootings an what they do with the knee that kills innocent people ... like its just for fun ... my Gawd they just had two hanging of blacks ...one was young boy too... the united states has been in a divide mode for a few yrs now ...our president has not made that any better either ... and what I have seen from Travon and others just has gotten me even madder ... but you do not have change ...being angry and mad ... solution an compromise are what we need ...

dust4fun's photo
Mon 06/15/20 06:15 PM
Well maybe we should look at the fact that nearly half of all murders in the United States are committed by black men? Blacks make up about 13% of the US population so about 7% are black males. The thing is most of these murders are of other black men. Between 2011-2013 38.5% arrested for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault were black. About 33% of the prison population is black while the US consist of about 64% white people and they make up 30% of the population. I'm sure some people think that white people can afford great lawyers and that the court system gives them free passes, however this is not the case. There is more white people living in poverty then black people. So somehow these black guys who fight and/or run from the cops and end up dying should be top priority in the black community? Maybe if people had a little more respect for the law and others there would be a lot fewer deaths of black men in general. I feel sorry for the black people who have worked hard to get out of the hood and make a better life for themselves and family and these thugs are still bringing them down. A start would be if you can't take care of yourself you probably can't take care of a kid, or two,or three either. I'm not a racist or a radical, I'm a realist. The problems that need to be solved run much dealer than the police force. Do the right thing for the community and turn in your neighbors, friends, or your son when they are thugs, turning your eye to it will just lead to pain by more. People who get everything for free have no respect for it. They think if people can get welfare, foodshelf, and toys for tots for free then it's also OK to shoplift or loot stores or rob the local convenience or liquor store. Its time to break the cycle, not the police department.

msharmony's photo
Mon 06/15/20 06:29 PM


These are interesting times, for sure. And, at least for me, they seem to be shining a light on the capacity for humans to not see a problem until or unless it affects them personally.

For instance, some people are outraged at living in what feels like a police state, being kept from freely walking about without being treated as criminal, yet minorities in many places have lived like that forever. The answer was 'if you have nothing to hide, why is it a problem?" Or "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." And now, people with 'nothing to hide' and who are not doing anything 'wrong' are finding it unbearable to be spending a few months out of their lives living this way.

Many people and companies are finding it necessary to have some type of financial relief when, through no real fault of their own, they are found without income. For many others, who also had previously found themselves in need of some financial relief, they were just told they shouldn't have what was 'other peoples money' or they should only get what they 'earn'.

I do not know if karma is a thing. But this does seem a huge karmic wake up call for some folks who were previously so quick to dismiss what others go through. In a way, I actually hope that becomes the silver lining in all of this. Perspective.

I am somewhat more hopeful when I see people from all walks of life coming together over the most recent overzealous police caused death. Some things really are not about merit or deserving, some things are just cultural brainwashing of whose lives have value and whose does not.

Has anyone in these threads found that maybe their sense of empathy has become a bit stronger throughout all of this?



No ... I have not changes ... I have always had empathy for people ...

and with more blacks... seem to be more of a movement now... with pictures and reporting ... is good for the public to see what has happened over the yrs ... I started to get angry long ago ... about shootings an what they do with the knee that kills innocent people ... like its just for fun ... my Gawd they just had two hanging of blacks ...one was young boy too... the united states has been in a divide mode for a few yrs now ...our president has not made that any better either ... and what I have seen from Travon and others just has gotten me even madder ... but you do not have change ...being angry and mad ... solution an compromise are what we need ...



drinker drinker


msharmony's photo
Mon 06/15/20 06:47 PM
Edited by msharmony on Mon 06/15/20 06:54 PM

Well maybe we should look at the fact that nearly half of all murders in the United States are committed by black men? Blacks make up about 13% of the US population so about 7% are black males. The thing is most of these murders are of other black men. Between 2011-2013 38.5% arrested for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault were black. About 33% of the prison population is black while the US consist of about 64% white people and they make up 30% of the population. I'm sure some people think that white people can afford great lawyers and that the court system gives them free passes, however this is not the case. There is more white people living in poverty then black people. So somehow these black guys who fight and/or run from the cops and end up dying should be top priority in the black community? Maybe if people had a little more respect for the law and others there would be a lot fewer deaths of black men in general. I feel sorry for the black people who have worked hard to get out of the hood and make a better life for themselves and family and these thugs are still bringing them down. A start would be if you can't take care of yourself you probably can't take care of a kid, or two,or three either. I'm not a racist or a radical, I'm a realist. The problems that need to be solved run much dealer than the police force. Do the right thing for the community and turn in your neighbors, friends, or your son when they are thugs, turning your eye to it will just lead to pain by more. People who get everything for free have no respect for it. They think if people can get welfare, foodshelf, and toys for tots for free then it's also OK to shoplift or loot stores or rob the local convenience or liquor store. Its time to break the cycle, not the police department.


Your data are flawed. You confused the numbers arrested, convicted and documented with the numbers COMMITTED. More than HALF of the homicides have either race of perp or victim unknown, leaving them out. So what you are left with are extremely incomplete numbers. And if we are going to look at strictly arrests, convictoins, and documents, that would tell us that the overwhelming majority of black people are NOT committing homicides. So?


Also. We have to determine whether we want to talk ratios and percentages, or raw numbers. For example, in raw numbers, whites have about 6 times as many people. That is like saying that a group with 6000 people and 1000 poor is just as bad as a group with ONLY 1000 having 1000 poor.

There have been for decades, at least, a consistent rate of 2x the poverty rate amongst blacks as there are with whites in this country, regardless of the crime rates or if they were high or low. That correlates more with the system, not the individuals. The system that is supposed to work for all citizens, and one that citizens rightly look to hold accountable and improve upon.



And humans in general find many things to be concerned about. They dd not have to choose only one issue, black, white or other. And yes, it should be an issue how the authorities treat citizens, period. It is still innocent until PROVEN guilty.

It should not be happening. And the 'look what you made me do' reasoning does not give authorities a pass with me to kill citizens any more than it gives abusive spouses a pass to knock around their kids or spouse.

There are many things that need to be solved. I hope people will not feel they can only pick ONE to care about.







msharmony's photo
Mon 06/15/20 06:52 PM


Well maybe we should look at the fact that nearly half of all murders in the United States are committed by black men? Blacks make up about 13% of the US population so about 7% are black males. The thing is most of these murders are of other black men. Between 2011-2013 38.5% arrested for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault were black. About 33% of the prison population is black while the US consist of about 64% white people and they make up 30% of the population. I'm sure some people think that white people can afford great lawyers and that the court system gives them free passes, however this is not the case. There is more white people living in poverty then black people. So somehow these black guys who fight and/or run from the cops and end up dying should be top priority in the black community? Maybe if people had a little more respect for the law and others there would be a lot fewer deaths of black men in general. I feel sorry for the black people who have worked hard to get out of the hood and make a better life for themselves and family and these thugs are still bringing them down. A start would be if you can't take care of yourself you probably can't take care of a kid, or two,or three either. I'm not a racist or a radical, I'm a realist. The problems that need to be solved run much dealer than the police force. Do the right thing for the community and turn in your neighbors, friends, or your son when they are thugs, turning your eye to it will just lead to pain by more. People who get everything for free have no respect for it. They think if people can get welfare, foodshelf, and toys for tots for free then it's also OK to shoplift or loot stores or rob the local convenience or liquor store. Its time to break the cycle, not the police department.


Your data are flawed. You confused the numbers arrested, convicted and documented with the numbers COMMITTED. More than HALF of the homicides have either race of perp or victim unknown, leaving them out. So what you are left with are extremely incomplete numbers. And if we are going to look at strictly arrests, convictoins, and documents, that would tell us that the overwhelming majority of black people are NOT committing homicides. So?


Also. We have to determine whether we want to talk ratios and percentages, or raw numbers. For example, in raw numbers, whites have about 6 times as many people. That is like saying that a group with 6000 people and 1000 poor is just as bad as a group with ONLY 1000 having 1000 poor.
There have been for decades, at least, a consistent rate of 2x the poverty rate amongst blacks as there are with whites in this country, regardless of the crime rates or if they were high or low. That correlates more with the system, not the individuals. The system that is supposed to work for all citizens, and one that citizens rightly look to hold accountable and improve upon.



And humans in general find many things to be concerned about. They dd not have to choose only one issue, black, white or other. And yes, it should be an issue how the authorities treat citizens, period. It is still innocent until PROVEN guilty.

It should not be happening. And the 'look what you made me do' reasoning does not give authorities a pass with me to kill citizens any more than it gives abusive spouses a pass to knock around their kids or spouse.

There are many things that need to be solved. I hope people will not feel they can only pick ONE to care about. I hope one of those things is the concern of how others ASSUME because of looks and not actions that someone was not doing what they were 'supposed' to be doing and taking the authority to be their judge and executioner for it.








oldkid46's photo
Mon 06/15/20 07:26 PM
Sorry but empathy is an emotion that is a waste of time and solves no problem. To solve a problem it is necessary to clearly define the problem and then identify the underlying causes for that problem. Only then can you seek plausible solutions to those causes.

I will say I have spent more time attempting to understand the racial issues in America. I find it very difficult to find honest information devoid of people's personal agendas. There seem to be many facets of racism that are challenging to understand and impossible when facts and honest communication are impossible to find. I keep hoping that positive solutions will be found but until we get past where we are today, I do not see it as possible. I guess giving some prayers are the best we currently have!

msharmony's photo
Mon 06/15/20 07:28 PM
Edited by msharmony on Mon 06/15/20 07:32 PM

Sorry but empathy is an emotion that is a waste of time and solves no problem. To solve a problem it is necessary to clearly define the problem and then identify the underlying causes for that problem. Only then can you seek plausible solutions to those causes.

I will say I have spent more time attempting to understand the racial issues in America. I find it very difficult to find honest information devoid of people's personal agendas. There seem to be many facets of racism that are challenging to understand and impossible when facts and honest communication are impossible to find. I keep hoping that positive solutions will be found but until we get past where we are today, I do not see it as possible. I guess giving some prayers are the best we currently have!


Prayers are good. I feel empathy is very powerful. It makes a huge difference, for instance, if a cop or judge can see a kid before them that makes them think of their own. It makes a difference in maybe how quickly they dismiss them or their consequences, or how quickly they assume the worst. Empathy is maybe the difference in how we can revere cops but be unforgiving of poor citizens. Maybe we can see our self in that cops position, whereas we could NEVER see our selves in the position of those making poor or dumb choices.

I think Empathy is the spark upon which action often is set off. Too often, if it is not 'my' problem, it is not 'a' problem and not something that the observer feels any need to act upon or do anything about.





Sir Dino One Love ☝️💚's photo
Mon 06/15/20 10:32 PM
I have empathy from afar.. I see an increase in people trying to justify the unjustifiable on a few threads here..:heart:

"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured."

Mark Twain

no photo
Mon 06/15/20 11:31 PM
Back in the 1960’s an experiment was performed on primates .. a group of monkeys were given food if they pulled a chain that delivered an electric shock to a companion monkey . One monkey starved for 12 days .. he would not pull the chain .

..empathy Is an awareness and understanding ... it can challenge /change social behaviour/interaction and influence how we perceive, respond and react . When it comes to successful conflict resolution and connectedness . ..

.I believe empathy makes a powerful contribution...
.., our global reaction to disasters is just one example . Without empathy that would not happen waving






msharmony's photo
Mon 06/15/20 11:46 PM

Back in the 1960’s an experiment was performed on primates .. a group of monkeys were given food if they pulled a chain that delivered an electric shock to a companion monkey . One monkey starved for 12 days .. he would not pull the chain .

..empathy Is an awareness and understanding ... it can challenge /change social behaviour/interaction and influence how we perceive, respond and react . When it comes to successful conflict resolution and connectedness . ..

.I believe empathy makes a powerful contribution...
.., our global reaction to disasters is just one example . Without empathy that would not happen waving








They did similar experiments here on humans, to see how much pain they would be willing to inflict upon others just because they were told to, or for money, through shocking them.


When us vs them elevates to seeing 'them' as less than human, it becomes dangerous. When the inability to feel for what happens to anyone but us becomes common, I think that we are further digging mankind's own hole.

Rock's photo
Wed 06/17/20 05:20 PM
I have no empathy for those who choose
criminal behavior as a lifestyle.


msharmony's photo
Wed 06/17/20 05:27 PM
Edited by msharmony on Wed 06/17/20 05:28 PM
I have empathy for those who are trying to survive the best they can. I do not have empathy for those who are unnecessarily violent toward others, or those who ALREADY have an ample amount for survival and still take advantage of others.