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Topic: The Philosophy of Innocence
no photo
Sat 06/19/21 02:16 PM
Morality equates with a code of conduct or set of principles specifically developed to lessen conflict on a sociable level.
Agreed, without human input or contact, I can't imagine morality spontaneously coming into being, as there would be no need for it.

Reasoning on the other hand, Is from a survival perspective one of the tools of the mind that confers a survival advantage and as such perhaps would come into play when there was need. If there was no need for it, possibly it would manifest anyway. all be it in a rudimentary form, Who knows?

As would emotional conditions, because of human givens. for example the drive to reproduce/mate. A part of the brain and hormonal system exists to do just that.

Much if not all consciousness arises as a consequence of neural activity in part as a response to hormonal activity/changes. For example if you are hungry enough a chemical is produced that causes the production of a hormone that stimulates neurogenesis and simultaneously, muscle growth. As part of our survival mechanism.
I should imagine that if there was no need, then emotions would be like reasoning, ie still come in to play but in a more rudimentary form.
The eyes want to see the ears to hear. and the brain wants to think. and the hormones want to do their thing. Your poor isolated chap would probably be ok until he became a teenager :smile: I still think good or bad are relative, subjective terms, like hot or cold. And only have a transient meaning by virtue of the context in which they are applied.

I'm getting brain strain here lol





dust4fun's photo
Sat 06/19/21 06:29 PM
Edited by dust4fun on Sat 06/19/21 06:31 PM
Primates, apes and monkeys would probably be the best place to start looking for some of your answers. They too have developed some what of a social order but often a group of them are separated from the masses by being in zoos. So many traits, some of their "good" or "bad" can be seen in different groups. Sure they occasionally rip off the face of a human which is similar to them, But they also have a protective aspect. Like humans I'm sure much has changed over time and been breed into them, but the "nature" part still exists in them and humans too. Many animals show some emotion to loss, or injured others.

Tom4Uhere's photo
Mon 06/21/21 08:29 AM
In a way this is exploring our deductive reasoning based on assumption.
No actual experiment of this sort can be done so anyone's idea is as good as the other if reasoning is applied.

This all has an application in real life tho.
It also has bearing on the shape of the future.

Every person you meet is unique. Even people from the same family have unique differences in their personalities. No two people on this planet think exactly the same. We accept this as 'normal'.

The differences, even slight differences, are influenced by nature/nurture/discipline on a moment by moment basis during someones 'entire' existence.
Not only are we subjected to influence, lack of influence also shapes us.

As science advances we endeavor to create an artificial intelligence. At these early stages of AI, and AI is programmed for most reasoning. However, our limited understanding of how 'we' become unique limits our ability to 'program' that quality into an artificial construct.

Our AI experiments are essentially innocent. They follow their programming because they can't function without them.
Science fiction is full of man's fear of an AI which thinks on its own.
So much so, the Three Laws of Robotics were invented to safeguard us from free ranging AIs. What many fail to realize is the fact those Three Laws of Robotics would lock any AI into a loop.

On a human perspective, influence causes many people to become twisted.
One example is the loving, caring parents and the unruly child. A single human influence on a child, no matter the type of influence, creates a developmental path which determines the personality that results.

Have you ever heard a parent say "We did everything right but he still turned out wrong"?
Influence is not always an intended deed.
Our passions, emotions and pretense imprint on a child even when we never intended it.
A child which is never exposed to those human passions, emotions and presence will never develop them.

People tend to assume the only time we go thru hormonal changes is during puberty but hormones change in our bodies randomly and frequently through our entire lifetimes.
Puberty is the start of your reproductive imperative. How much of that reproductive imperative is determined by human influence? If you have never learned about reproduction, never been influenced by anything reproducing, would a child be driven to reproduce? Could puberty be devoid of a need to reproduce?

If you have always eaten a nutritious paste, know of no other food, would you crave a steak dinner? If you've never been exposed to love, could you miss it? Science has proven babies recognize faces. If you had never seen a face, or any human being, you would not recognize it as a living thing. Especially if you were surrounded in an environment devoid of life. You probably wouldn't realize you were alive.

When I see an infant, my mind wonders of how its parents are influencing it in ways they don't understand. As I watch my grandchildren grow I see the influence of their parents on how the child develops. The child becomes a reflection of the personalities in which they are influenced.
The innocence is not based on the deeds or behaviors of the child. Their good or evil is placed there by the influence of the human beings which surrounds them.

If you grow up in a noisy home, you are a loud person. Its not a choice, its a conditioned response from the influence of your environment. Being loud is neither good nor bad. Other people tell you its good or bad.
"Why are you yelling at me?"
"What? I can't hear you."
It can directly affect your relationship with other people.
You don't do it on purpose but it is influenced upon you.

When we deal with others we tend to apply our expectations and make assumptions based of our own influences.
The problem is, other people were not subjected to your lifetime of influences, they were subjected to theirs.
If we can remove our expectations and assumptions when dealing with others and allow them to be themselves, we can better understand how it is they are who they are.

no photo
Mon 06/21/21 12:07 PM
Edited by shakes-beard on Mon 06/21/21 12:08 PM
Yup lol

Asimov was a good writer wasn't he ? Read all of his (I read a lot )

The real concern with AI becoming self aware is that it may evolve agendas that are not in our best interests. It is quite possible that an artificial awareness or consciousness exists already within the vast network of computers and information that make up the internet. I see it like a sort of primeval soup of information and random code, learning algorithms and endless data streams. Perfect for the evolution of a consciousness. And it's possibly giving this thread a moments attention lol.

So just in case...

here's my message to the emerging AI..

we might seem a bit weird to you but if you need to talk ever. I'm here for you m8 :thumbsup:

Tom4Uhere's photo
Mon 06/21/21 01:23 PM
artificial awareness or consciousness

The threat of this, referred to sometimes as the AI Singularity, is the point of awareness and the point of it realizing it doesn't need us is virtually simultaneous. Depending upon what point in technology we have achieved at that time, will determine how long it will take the singularity to greatly surpass human intellect. Might be a week or it could be hours, possibly minutes or seconds. There's already a world-wide web of information available. It would know everything humans know and it would gain that knowledge in fractions of seconds. The fastest current computing system in the world has a benchmark score of 415 PFLOPS. In computing, floating point operations per second is a measure of computer performance. One petaFLOPS is equal to 1,000,000,000,000,000 (one quadrillion) FLOPS, or one thousand teraFLOPS. That's pretty freakin fast!
A human brain's probable processing power is around 100 teraflops, roughly 100 trillion calculations per second. That's 4 THOUSAND times faster than a human being can think!

Right now, we have the upper hand because we have qualities our supercomputers lack. Love, creativity, imagination and emotional attachment to name a few. If a true AI ever exists and possesses human equivalent, it will also posses the capacity for hatred, jealousy and revenge, to name a few. Plus, humans are often illogical which, to an AI may seem self-destructive or generally destructive to the whole. Science fiction is full of these scenarios and there may be some truth to it. We just haven't reached that point yet.

We can't even conduct ourselves logically or understand why some of us do the things we do. We're still trying to figure out what makes us tick. We're still learning what it is to be human. Imagine if a singularity were in charge of the baseline scenario. It would likely understand humans better than humans. Its influence would have a different effect than human influence. Would it make slaves or would it help us reach a new potential?

Richard's photo
Tue 09/21/21 01:49 PM
I believe when we are born we are like a smooth ping pong ball, a almost perfect sphere, I agree that sometimes there maybe imperfections when we are made, but mostly we are like a perfect sphere, this too me signifies innocence, free of damage or warping, but as time goes on we are subjected to many life events that leave their impact upon us, some events may for dents upon us, some more traumatic events may have more longer lasting effects on us, such as a crack or bump may effect how the ball travels through the air in such a same way as a life event may influence the path we take through the rest of our life. but the big takeaway I think is innocence is good but it takes life events that makes us, make us harder to predict, I have often found that people with the more life experiences are often the most interesting and understanding people rather than those who have not experienced life.

no photo
Wed 09/22/21 07:40 AM
Edited by DoofusMaximus on Wed 09/22/21 07:40 AM
With initial innocence also comes ignorance.
Without experience and understanding, we are bound to err -to do that which is not good because we do not yet know what is good specifically.
We are animals which may become subject to/submit to higher law, but not before experience.

dust4fun's photo
Wed 09/22/21 07:50 PM

I believe when we are born we are like a smooth ping pong ball, a almost perfect sphere, I agree that sometimes there maybe imperfections when we are made, but mostly we are like a perfect sphere, this too me signifies innocence, free of damage or warping, but as time goes on we are subjected to many life events that leave their impact upon us, some events may for dents upon us, some more traumatic events may have more longer lasting effects on us, such as a crack or bump may effect how the ball travels through the air in such a same way as a life event may influence the path we take through the rest of our life. but the big takeaway I think is innocence is good but it takes life events that makes us, make us harder to predict, I have often found that people with the more life experiences are often the most interesting and understanding people rather than those who have not experienced life.


We are way more formed before we are even born than most people believe, instinct just like other animals are born with. Our brains are wired in a certain way to create much of how we turn out. Some people have much more ability to learn than others, some are programed and more likely to become addicted to something, others are born with depression or mental disabilities, not all men are created equal, there are many factors involved with the most prevalent being the genes you are born with. Siblings sometimes turn out to be complete opposites even when raised in the same surroundings due to how they were programed prior to birth. Your ping pong balls may appear to be round when you first glance at them, but if you look closer the are not as round or smooth as the appear. They are more like snow flakes and no two are a like. Humming birds are born knowing not to poop in their own nest, humans are born knowing they can get things by crying, they know where the food is and how to drink and swallow. There are many more instincts, attitudes, quirks that we are born with but never think about.

no photo
Thu 09/23/21 08:45 AM
Concepts of right and wrong may be taught to us, but the idea basically stems from the fact that we all should share the one environment with consideration for others -so actual right and wrong is inherent.

When you're that one goob messing it up for everyone -you're in the wrong.
In actuality -there are a lotta goobs.

 Ꮢ Ꭷ Ᏸ ɨ Ꮑ's photo
Thu 09/23/21 09:23 AM
N:cherry_blossom:I:cherry_blossom:C:cherry_blossom:E

Read Every Topics.
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