I am trying very hard to respect you as a person, with a right to your opinion and free will, but you are making it very difficult for me.

Interesting, for someone so open-minded about religion and things of that nature, then why are you so single minded when it comes to Christianity.

And yes, this is a forum to discuss religious viewpoints. Key word there, discuss. Not debate. Isn't discussion "What do you think of this?" or "Why do you as a Christian/athiest/whatever believe in this?" Not "This is a horrible religion and my goal is to stop you from believing it." Why don't you let people decide if it's horrible for themselves?

At the end of the day, am I worried you'll get in the way of more believers? Am I concerned that you will turn others from Christianity? No, not at all. There is nothing you can do to thwart God's great plan. You will not stop Him from reaching people. Sorry to disappint you, but you don't dare possess any power even close to doing that!

Yes very true, in science a lot of the time conclusion is already premeditated before the evidence ever shows if it does.

It gives people hope for what? Eternal life?

Do you truly need to believe in a Zeus-like mythology to believe in spirituality?

I don't.

I would rather see people educated on far better ways of having hope for a spiritual existence.

The idea of a jealous God who solves all his problems using violent methods, and the only way to win his LOVE is to accept that he had his only begotten son nailed to a pole for your sake is just plain SICK.

What kind of HOPE would that be?

Hope for what? Hope that you can make it into some kind of very select heaven and live an eternal life serving the WILL of a God who you clearly rejected, and disobeyed to the very point where the ONLY way you could get back into his grace is to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole for your sake?

You would be living an eternal life of perpetual SHAME.

Not only that, but what makes you think you'd qualify? Only FEW will make it, according to what the gospels claim that Jesus himself said.

What makes you so arrogant to HOPE that you'll be one of those FEW?

And finally, isn't the whole thing rather selfish? What about the vast majority of humans who aren't going to make it?

This fable offers VERY LITTLE hope.

You talk about people being DESPERATE. From my point of view, a person would truly need to be DESPERATE to hold out HOPE that this fable is going to do something for them.

I'm not an atheist. If I were going to offer you something to BELIEVE in I would suggest that you listen to some of the teachings of Deepak Chopra. And to also study the religions of the Easter Mystics.

If you want HOPE, they offer far more HOPE than these Abrahamic religions.

I'm not preaching atheism. I'm just offering why I feel that the Mediterranean mythologies are nonsense.

You're jumping to far too many conclusion based on your limited knowledge of me, and of what other religious philosophies have to offer.

I'm not suggesting that you give up HOPE in anything. On the contrary there are FAR BETTER spiritual pictures to place your FAITH in. Trust me, they're out there. You just need to find them if you're looking for some sort of HOPE.

Moreover what are you HOPING FOR? Hoping that God will accept you?

If there is such a thing as a spiritual afterlife I'm certain that I will be accepted there with OPEN ARMS and I will be granted the best of everything. I'm totally confident of that because I know that I'm a totally righteous person.

For anything other than that to be true the creator of life would need to be a demon.

I don't need to pacify Christians to KNOW that I'm a righteous person.

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The idea of a jealous God who solves all his problems using violent methods, and the only way to win his LOVE is to accept that he had his only begotten son nailed to a pole for your sake is just plain SICK
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Our father doesn't solve his problems through violent methods. The only way to show an emotion is through an action. Otherwise it's only by word of mouth, and that leaves room for lying thus sacrifice is used to show your love for God. Thus accepting Jesus as lord and saviour is accepting the "sacrifice" he gave for us all......... his life, going through the pain of the cross, his entire life. That's what it's about, it's about the son of God willingly SACRIFICING himself for us.

Abracadabra,
you can't really think that God did not create us all can you? Or this earth? You really think we just popped out of a big bang??? Science can't explain everything.

Can it explain why very sick and dying people are healed and even when doctors cannot explain it?

no. we are not alone here.

And I am curious, what are your beliefs anyway, other than that you don't believe in Christianity?

for to live love is love all life and to p---reach the only essence of any greater truth, for what be love but justice to create the equal treatment of all as equal in value?

what can love more, that make itself believe it love to capacity already, for to admit any lacking of love, be the very essence of what allow the creation of more to be created into existence?

for many a follower, falsely believe the louder it proclaim it's own accolades, the more accolades itself hath earned, but indeed, the more one accept lacking as a reality, the more lacking pass away?

perhaps why it was once written, what is up to man is down to god, and what is down to man is up to god?

naturally, for what seek to find error in itself, shall become the wiser, but what seek to prove itself not in error, shall become the dumber, or self bliding itself, by the how it is operating it's own brain.

Very true Cowboy. And you are right about your other post, actions speak louder than words. Sadly I admit I am not the best representative of a Christian. I get angry, and I am not perfect. People have this point of view that Christians are perfect or think they are. That's so not true. You will find people of every belief who think they are perfect, but a true Christian knows they are not.

Bottom line is quite simple.

From a religious point of view, the religion creates and supports religious bigotry. Just look around the world and you can see that. And keep in mind that I'm speaking about all the Abrahamic religions, not just "Christianity". I don't single Christianity out, it just appears that way on this forum because it's only Christian proselytizers and evangelists who converse with me.

From a doctrine point of view, I personally feel that the religion cannot possibly be true. That's the bottom line.

The original Old Testament is basically Islam. They are STILL stoning people to death for "sins" in some Islamic countries. It's a brutal religion. Take Jesus and the New Testament out of Christianity and you've basically got Islam.

I totally dismiss those old fables as being ungodly, period. I totally disagree with the things those authors claim that God is like. In short I don't care for the Biblical God at all. I feel that he's stupid, very unwise, and has nothing positive to offer humanity.

Well, at that point, there's really no reason to even consider Jesus as being the "Son of that God". I already dismiss the Old Testament God as being utterly absurd.

However, just for make-pretend, let's pretend that Jesus is God. Now all of a sudden it's IMPORTANT to believe that Jesus is God. In fact, if you deny that Jesus is God your done!

So now you expect me to believe that our creator judges people solely on what they believe?

That's absurd. Such a God would need to condemn perfectly wholesome and righteous people simply because they didn't believe in the biblical story.

IMHO, such a God would be far from wise, and far from righteous.

So there's basically no reason whatsoever to believe in this mythology.

And that's just based on the simple observation that the myth is far from being wise, or righteous.

Add to that all the technical reasons for rejecting it, and why anyone would even bother to consider it is beyond me.

Jesus would need to be a monster for this religion to be true.

AMEN!!! For everyone falls short in the glory of God.

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So now you expect me to believe that our creator judges people solely on what they believe?

That's absurd. Such a God would need to condemn perfectly wholesome and righteous people simply because they didn't believe in the biblical story.
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Our father doesn't only judge us on our beliefs. We will be judged on our actions as well. And if you had a child, and the child continually refused to believe you were his/her parent no matter the proof that you showed, would you bless that child with all the things he/she has ever wanted? Would you allow them into your house even though they still continuously refuse to believe you are their parent?

Abra,
what is your definition of "righteous" anyway? And on another note, if Jesus was a monster, then why did He sacrifice Himself for us?

He certainly didn't have to. He chose to because we could not save ourselves!

Don't you see that? God has given us every opportunity in the world to be saved and forgiven! He even sacrificed Himself for us to live! That is why it's so sad when people dismiss that! The only thing God didn't do, and rightly so, was just ignore people's sin altogether and pretend it didn't exist.

it seems if human's are not as RULING GODS, but rather as child gods, at least for now, then the only perfect as applying to mortal existence, be the ability to admit one's own lacking, or to seek within onself to prove error rather than no error, so then, perfect be not such an illusion as not attainable?

duly noted jesus said to go and be ye therefore perfect?

it would seem this would allow no excuse for the action's of oneself?

perhaps so not to dilude oneself, as not guilty of trespassing it's own GRAND ABILITIES, knowing that excusing anything of oneself reduces self's own intelligence incrementally with each excuse made of it's own behaviour as acceptable to ITSELF...

such creating the all to familiar human inclination to try convince other's self behaviour is acceptable, or that "self is really a christian", or self is really a "good person", lol...

using the oldest, greatest excuse ever known to mortal man, of "no one is perfect"...

for what self makes acceptable unto itself, it shall repeat, what it does not, shall quickly dissapear.

the very first utterance of this phrase be most what human existence need "saved from".

I'm not an atheist. But in a sense I'm not a theist either.

I'm agnostic (which doesn't mean that I don't know what to believe), it simply means what it says. I'm WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE of the true nature of reality. As is TRUE for every human.

What do I believe? Well, belief is logic. Allow me instead to say what I FEEL.

Intuitively I know that I'm eternal. Intuitively I know that I existed before I was born and I will continue to exist after my physical body dies. I don't need to "believe" in any religion for this to be the truth of my existence.

Can my intuition be wrong? Sure it can. But I don't need to know with absolute certainty about these things. If atheism is true and when we die it's just lights out, trust me, there is nothing to FEAR in that.

If I were going to offer a philosophy for someone who wanted to seek knowledge I would offer the Eastern mystical picture in abstract form and warn against allowing it to become dogmatized. Strict dogma serves no one. Strict dogma can only lead to divisive and argumentative religions like the Abrahamic religions.

As I've mentioned before Deepak Chopra is a good source of spiritual knowledge. I highly recommend all his lecture DVDs. I don't support everything he says, but again I emphasize the need to keep things abstract and don't try to turn spirituality into something CONCRETE.

Now may I ask you a question.

Why is it so important to you that there be a single egotistical judgmental godhead?

Do you believe that you just popped into existence at birth when God created you from nothing?

If you believe that you can continue to exist in spiritual form after you die, then why not also believe that you were spirit before you were born? Why the one-way thing?

If you can believe that you are ultimately as spiritual being then why not just do so entirely?

You talk about HOPE.

From my perspective there is absolutely no HOPE in the idea that I will forever be nothing more than a lowly pet for the amusement of some supernatural being who demands that I serve its will forever.

If you want REAL HOPE, why not just realize that you are the super natural being? Think BIG, if you're going to hope for something, why not hope all the way. Why HOPE yourself into a predicament where you are forever the pet of some other being?

To me, atheism is a more inviting picture than to be a lowly pet of some other being for all of eternity.

being an atheist has the greatest reward,when you die theres no disappointment,meaning i wasnt expecting to go to heaven or hell cause neither exist

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Why is it so important to you that there be a single egotistical judgmental godhead?

Do you believe that you just popped into existence at birth when God created you from nothing?

If you believe that you can continue to exist in spiritual form after you die, then why not also believe that you were spirit before you were born? Why the one-way thing? spock

If you can believe that you are ultimately as spiritual being then why not just do so entirely?
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It's not important that there be a single egotistical judgemental godhead. Our lives are not for nothing. Our lives is to either make us or break us. Not exactly in the essence of weeding out the weak ones. But more so trying to strengthen the weak ones with using the witnessing of the stronger ones as to make the weak ones strong as well. And to gain such an achievement there needs to be rules and a consequence for not achieving as such, otherwise there would be less of a drive to achieve the goal.
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Do you believe that you just popped into existence at birth when God created you from nothing?
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Yes, God wanted more children in heaven. Again our lives on earth will either make us or break us. Through the tribulations on earth we gain strength and knowledge, thus making us stronger then if we were to have just been created in heaven to live.
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Why HOPE yourself into a predicament where you are forever the pet of some other being?
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But we aren't a "pet". We are children of God.
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Oh no, here we go again...lol

Gotta give the thumbs up to Cowboy again on that one

No I don't "see" this at all. Jesus had to be crucified why?

Because an all-powerful God who can do anything, cannot forgive the sins of man unless someone is physically slaughtered in a very nasty way? :huh

No, I don't "see" that at all. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

The idea that Jesus was a mortal man who was crucified for teaching against the Torah, and making pantheistic statements that he and God are one, make far more sense to me. Even the gospels have Jesus teaching, "Ye are Gods". I see no reason at all to believe that Jesus was a "sacrificial lamb" of a God who can only forgive when there is a blood sacrifice made.

In fact, the idea that God is appeased by blood sacrifices is one of the very reasons I reject the Old Testament God to begin with. That's just too Zeus-like. Why should the REAL CREATOR of this universe just happen to be like Zeus?

The idea that it's just another man-made myth makes far more sense to me.

Besides, it makes absolutely no sense at all in the overall fable.

At one point this very same God supposedly floods out the entire planet as his way of dealing with sinners. Now he has a complete change of heart and method of dealing with sin and instead sacrifices his own son unto himself so he can forgive men of their sins?

That makes SENSE to you?

If God were going to sacrifice himself for man's sake why not just do it in the Garden of Eden and nip things in the but right then?

It makes no sense to me that God would change the way he deals with mankind and sin. Especially in a fable where the God is supposed to be unchanging. Thus the probability that this is just another man-made fable is extremely high. It's not even a very well-written fable, IMHO.

Plus this whole thing DEPENDS ENTIRELY on the belief that you've pointed out here:



This very idea that we cannot 'save ourselves' is just yet another RED FLAG. This is precisely the kind of thing that MEN would write in a fable that they are trying to convince the masses that only their FABLE and the CHURCH has the way to salvation. You cannot save yourself! You NEED the CHURCH and this religion!

Can you not see the problems with this.

We supposedly CANNOT HELP BUT BE SINNERS?

That's bull crap!

Why?

Well, because this God is supposed to PASS JUDGMENT on us. Well, if he created us in such a way that we cannot possibly resist sin or be righteous on our own merit, then simultaneously we CANNOT be held responsible for our predicament.

This is just about proof positive that these fables amount to nothing more than the brainwashing scheme of men. Try to convince the people that they are all sinners and that they cannot free themselves from sin without the aid of the CHURCH and a belief and total SUBMISSION to their religion.

Well, that works just fine for a brainwashing scheme like that. In fact it works all too well on far too many people.

But what of a God who had placed mankind into such an impossible position? Would that make sense?

Well IMHO, no. It makes no sense at all. A God who has placed man into a position where he CANNOT HELP BUT SIN, and then passes judgments on him for being in that predicament?

Such a God would be a totally untrustworthy USER. He would be creating totally helpless souls who really have NO CHOICE in the matter of either cowering down to him in SHAME because they CANNOT exercise a true FREE WILL to rid themselves of sinful behavior.

It's utterly absurd. If we can't rid ourselves of sinful behavior via our own FREE WILL CHOICE then we can hardly be blamed or held responsible for not doing to.

It's s farce. A brainwashing scheme created by men to make the masses feel guilty with NO EXCEPTION ALLOWED. NO MAN CAN BE RIGHTEOUS ON HIS OWN!

That's baloney.

So, no, I don't "see" where this religion makes any sense at all to be perfectly honest about it.

You constantly try to speak of God as being a "Father" and that we are his children. But this analogy always fails. It necessarily has to fail.

You can't use the term "children" in the same why that we as humans use it, because human "children" actually grow up to become adults and Fathers and Mothers themselves.

But in this religious scenario these so-called "Children" of God never grow up to become Gods themselves, because this religion believes in only ONE GOD.

So these immature "lesser beings" cannot be thought of as "God's Children". They can only be thought of as God's PETS. Because they will never grow up to be equivalent to their so-called "parent".

The Parent/child analogy must ALWAYS break down and fail in the Christian picture. God cannot be our "FATHER" and we cannot be his "Children". All we can be is the PETS of a being that will forever be so far superior to us that we can never even begin to understand it nature, much less ever become like it.

So your words don't hold.

In the Christian picture we can only be God's PETS. And never hope to be anything more than that.

In that sense it's actually a HOPELESS religion.