QUICKSTEPPER:

Actually speaking, God doesn't NEED us. Like all the rest of creation...including the heavenly host, He invites us into His plan.

There would be no debate if humanity really recieved what is deserved.

TRIBO:

Well i'll have to address ths from inside the chritian belief's, otherwise it would make no sense to all other's.

christianity focuses more on us and god and rarely thinks upon what took place biblicaly before god created the universe and earth and especially mankind.

According to the bible there was a former creation period where his angel's were made also in his image, even more so than us because they were spiritual beings. These bieng's evidentally had and have rank in heaven from mere angel's to arch angels, cherubim and seraphim's lucifer being the one spoken of as being gods crowning creation, so much so that he was close to being god like in all his way's. It leads one to presume that maybe he was very close to being as wise and powerful as god himself without being able to create thing's from nothing as god in the bible does. Though there is not an abundece of info on what may have happened we d know from both old and new writing's within - that lucifer through his own "pride" sought to become god and overthrow his heaven's. the "I will's" lucifer is said to have spoken are said to represent this.

Because of lucifer's sin of pride, a battle pursueded in the heaven's between god with his host of obedient angel's and those who decided to join lucifer's ambition's to overthrow his creator. The outcome of the story as can be know is that lucifer was cast down to earth, evidentaly before man was created and this was considered a just thing for the biblical god to do - ( which if god is like man probably would be) - From there the creation of the universe as we knew it was formed along with earth and all it contain's, mankind and animal life and all else.

But since the post at the beginning is stating that "God does not need man" a problem arises conncerning why man was made at all? As to staying within the biblical text as written.


other religious christian's have stated in the writing some decades ago that god created the eath and mankind to show the angel's in heaven his infinite justice was fair in dealing with lucifer and that his banishment and his following dealing's with man on earth (bieng allowed to alter job's life and tempt jesus and a host of other thing's is his way of proving that this is not something that god should forgive lucifer for and that his punishment for disobedience is just.

God decided that the only way to prove his justice was just, toward's lucifer, was the correct action to take was to create a being that also had the same free will as lucifer had that would not go against him but would worship and adore him for eternity - thus proving - a free willed creation of a lower stature than the angel's was capable of being more perfect than lucifer in the use of his free will.

To do so would require the creation of mankind - or if he had wanted - some other like man - for this lesson in what a non perfect being was capable of accomplishing as the game ran it's course up until the time he entered the world as the savior of mankind through jesus.

To require - implicates "NEED" - it WAS necesary for god to create mankind to show the heaven's that his infinite "justice" was fair, he first - "NEEDED" man to do so - to put his now known plan into affect, and still "NEEDS" man until his plan or game is finished. Past that he also "NEEDED" and still need's all of creation until his plan/game is completed.

to state that god is a gracious host inviting us to fellowship with him may be one's opinion but does not stand up to biblical exegesis of - why? we are even here in the first place, why god found it necessary to create a 3 dimensinal plain at all.

I think God made man as part of his divine plan for creation and for working out his purposes. We live for God's glory and he wants us to know him and to fellowship with him as indeed we can when we let him into our life by faith, inviting him to forgive our sins and telling him we believe he is who he says he is and God raised him from the dead.

That's the challenge we all face. Are we up for it?

I think God made man as part of his divine plan for creation and for working out his purposes


tribo

so you agree then that god "needed man" to work out his purposes then?

Correct me if I'm wrong...is there a question of God's motive here? Is that what this post is about? Just askin'...

I think there is a little bit yes, As in what motivation did God have to create this world if he does not need it? Did he just get bored one day and decide he wanted to create life and that was it. Or did he need to do it for a specific purpose and therefore we are around because he needed something from us?

no question of his motives at all QS, i stated his motives for creating man to begin with - the NEED to create man. i don't agree at all with your statement that god does or did not NEED man - thats all.

Lol, guess I interpreted wrong. The post was not about his motives, by my curiousity is about his motives. Just another thing that doesn't make sense to me if he created us just because but he didn't need his creation for anything.

Yes. I definitely believe we were created for God's purposes. Everything was created for his purposes and his plan. We live for God's glory through worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry to other Christians and a minsion to all people. Life is a temporary assignment, a trial, and a trust.

Okay...some Christians do believe that, but I don't feel it is supported by the Bible.

Most Biblically correct is this: We don't know when or why the angels were created. We don't know that anything existed before God created the universe and earth. That time period (if it existed) is not directly discussed in the Bible. Tertullian would teach that if it's not in the Bible, then it should be judged by what's in the Bible. Never add to or remove from what the Bible teaches.

I believe that Satan rebelled out of jealousy. I believe that Satan was angry that mankind would be able to see the face of God, while he and the angels could not. Because of this, Satan tried to corrupt mankind so that we would never be saved. This makes much more sense to me than Angels rebelling against God because they would rather follow Satan. Especially since Isaiah 14 is talking about a Babylonian king whom is described by the prophet as "Lucifer". Isaiah 14 is clearly not talking about Satan when taken fully in context.

2 things QS - one in your statement your admitting that angels existed before man or - you believe they were created at the same time - or - after?

you believe as you state

I believe that Satan rebelled out of jealousy. I believe that Satan was angry that mankind would be able to see the face of God, while he and the angels could not. Because of this, Satan tried to corrupt mankind so that we would never be saved. This makes much more sense to me than Angels rebelling against God because they would rather follow Satan.

if that's what " you" believe fine - it still does not negate that god "needed man" and still need's man to fullfil his purposes.

your allowed all the opinion's you may have - just don't make comment's on or give "absolutes" as if your speaking directly for "your god" as his female moses, or the "mouthpiece of christ"

"most biblically correct" teachings are totally dependant on which part of your or other's teaching's has been affected by what ever sectarian part of christ seperated body is speaking. all of you pick and choose whatever suits your own ideas as most acceptable. comment's like yours and others while i was inside christainity is a main reason i left - there cannot be several perfectly correct answers to all that is asked. pre trib's, post trib's a minenial thouguts etc - you all hold to different belief's that contradict each other.

Tribo,

Not trying to be insulting, but you need to learn how the quotes work. It is very hard to read your posts as they are.

I'm a male, so I don't think I'm God's "female moses".

Why do I say that Satan rebelled because he was jealous that man would see God's face?

John 1:18


No man has seen God's face.

Isaiah 6:1-2


Angels cover their face in God's presense, so that they won't see God's face.

Revelation 22:1-4


But those who are saved will see God's face.

That's my theory. The reason for Satan's rebellion is never mentioned in the Bible, but I believe this to be a reasonable assumption.

You complain that various Christians have disagreeing beliefs. Well, that's why Bibles are so easily available. You can read the Bible yourself and make up your own mind.

EDIT...



God created the universe, he created mortal and spritual life...what could God "need" from mankind? Here is just one example of God explaining his purpose in creating us.

Isaiah 43:6-7

Does the biblical God need man, or does the biblical man need to be reconciled to God?

Man has invented many devices and inventions to ease his burdens, but for all of that, Jesus came and said, "my burden is light, and my yoke is easy."

I see it as man that has strayed from the gift of life and the plucking of free cherries.

lIKE A FRIEND OF MINE WOULD SAY, "YOU PICK 'EM, I'LL EAT 'EM."

He changed that when he met Jesus. He then knew to the month when he would pass and and knew that he wouldn't be around past Hallowe'en, one year.

He left the planet two days before, and I guess he was held to his words....

God picked 'em, and he ate 'em.

I love my brother. I am glad he is where he is now.

Meanwhile, we carry on..


peace.

my apologies spider, that was meant for quickstepper not for you - as to your verses here i am familiar with all as i have said i was a believer for many years - so i have read and studied much just not in the last couple of decade's and i have little resources to look at now nor am i that interested to do so. all of the verses you bring out are symbolic or of that nature not actual accounts of man seeing gods actual face - nor of christ in his full glory.
spider:
But those who are saved will see God's face.


tribo:
not in this life.

he needs man in this sense spider - he put into motion a plan that included us - which equates a "need" by him to bring about what he intended - that's all im saying - could he have used another mean's?? - of course - but he did not - so my point stands - his purpose equates to needing us and all creation to bring about his plan/purpose.intent. pretty simple.

thnx spider