I agree completely.

LOL...

Exactly why it will take a billion years to discuss...

Ok let's take the concept of 'there could have always been a something'. Sounds reasonable on the surface. But infinity doesn't work like that. Having 'always existed' would mean that an infinite amount of time had passed before we came into consciousness to sit here and philosophize. Which is impossible - an infinite amount of time passing would also mean we never began to exist at any certain point (or else it wouldn't have been an infinite amount of time). That original infinity without us would still be continuing. Infinity is unchanging and constant... forever. Which isn't the current state of the universe. The universe as we know it came into existence at some point in time and we came into consciousness at a specific point in time. That's just the way our reality is. And that's paradoxical to infinity.

...unless there is another power that operates outside the physical rules of our universe and especially the time aspect of existence. Some claim that 'God' fits that bill perfectly. Others might claim that power is something else occult. Different folks, different opinions (I'm not taking a side here).

All I'm trying to point out is that even according to scientific theory that an ultimate creating power that transcends this physical world and isn't bound by time - is the only explanation for how we could exist at a specific point in an infinity.

It's just my *opinion* (I'm agnostic), but an ultimate creating power that transcends the physical universe and time fits my definition of what God is perfectly.

Yeah thats the old stand by. I was taking bets on when someone would make that statment. I had guessed within 8 posts.

The old "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" bromide. More of a semantic teeter-totter than anything.

god will always exist as long as man has room in his life to to support the need for a diety.

I don't think anyone should have to prove anything about God. He is there for all to find if we want to. "Seek and ye shall find." If you want proof, go directly to the source. Just be careful what you ask for. He may prove it in a way that you don't want. Just ask Him. Tell Him that you want proof. You must keep an open heart. You have to go into expecting an answer and be willing to receive that answer. He will let you know, if you really want to know.

"If you want proof, go directly to the source."

Bring a live goat for the sacrifice.

if you would understand God, then learn to count like
a child. count HIGHER...but well there is always one
higher than that...take your string, halve it, halve it
again...in your mind, your imaginary string halve it
until it is too small to see, in your mind the halving
never ends. consider the interval between 0 and 1 and
pick any two numbers in that interval. there's a number
in that interval...in fact there are an infinite number
of numbers in there. see what i mean? but not all
infinities are equal....

from the Wiki...

"The Isha Upanishad of the Yajurveda (c. 4th to 3rd century BC) states that "if you remove a part from infinity or add a part to infinity, still what remains is infinity".

Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam
Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate
Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya
Pūrṇam evāvasiṣyate.

That is whole, this is whole
From the whole, the whole is subtracted
When the whole is taken from the whole
The whole still will remain — Isha Upanishad.

The Indian mathematical text Surya Prajnapti (c. 400 BC) classifies all numbers into three sets: enumerable, innumerable, and infinite. Each of these was further subdivided into three orders:

* Enumerable: lowest, intermediate and highest
* Innumerable: nearly innumerable, truly innumerable and innumerably innumerable
* Infinite: nearly infinite, truly infinite, infinitely infinite

The Jains were the first to discard the idea that all infinites were the same or equal. They recognized different types of infinities: infinite in length (one dimension), infinite in area (two dimensions), infinite in volume (three dimensions), and infinite perpetually (infinite number of dimensions).

According to Singh (1987), Joseph (2000) and Agrawal (2000), the highest enumerable number N of the Jains corresponds to the modern concept of aleph-null \aleph_0 (the cardinal number of the infinite set of integers 1, 2, ...), the smallest cardinal transfinite number. The Jains also defined a whole system of infinite cardinal numbers, of which the highest enumerable number N is the smallest.

In the Jaina work on the theory of sets, two basic types of infinite numbers are distinguished. On both physical and ontological grounds, a distinction was made between asaṃkhyāta ("countless, innumerable") and ananta ("endless, unlimited"), between rigidly bounded and loosely bounded infinities."

Yeah...

Like we're going to define "God".

Infinite number of possibilities...

There's this understanding or belief that there HAS to be something beyond each individual's will driving the process of existence of ALL.

What that "something" is can not be placed into any one definition.

We'll be spinning our wheels on this for eternity.

There is more then one kind of infinity, time to take some math.

This argument MIGHT hold if we could measure time beyond our 3 dimensions. We currently cannot, and so making logical deductions about time before the Big bang is not going to further our understanding of space time, neither is saying god did it.

Read about QM and tell me that time and infinities are reasonable things to base logical statements on . . . .

Also saying infinity is unchanging and constant is also just plain wrong.

2 words: Irrational numbers: PIE: is pie unchanging? can we predict what number will come next?

If there was a universe creating mechanism at a higher dimension from ours could you predict how long it takes to spit out one big bang when you your self are confined to the space time of the universe it created? Answer no: Question does that make it a god? Answer: no

What if pie was a function that each odd number represents the creation of a new big bang within the foamy space-time of higher dimensions how is that not infinite and how is that constant. You cannot predict when the next odd number will come and yet its infinite.

Are you sure your agnostic, it appears you are arguing that there MUST have been a god.

My conclusion:
logic will not deduce reality beyond the common place.


Yes when your sight is so open it can indeed be an endless task. Few are up for that mental task and so settle for a lesser vision of what god could be.

Most gods fall into a few categories for those that settle:
The omnipotent, omniscient describes most peoples concept of god. ( this is fact is a great things to really start a good conversation with a "true believer" that is not as open as you are.

So next you have to ask yourself do you believe your god interferes with the natural processes of the universe?

Then you have to ask yourself, do you feel you can communicate with god via prayer?

I then ask do you believe in miracles.

Then I ask do you think miracles are supernatural?

I then ask for them to show me a miracle, or documentation of one.

Then the conversation can get some meat once you can nail the person for there beliefs by using real world scenarios about why there god doesn't seem to give a **** yet is supposed to be loving. (I reserve this way of inquiry for those that are obnoxious when it comes to the reality of science only, I love my friends that are true believers that accept reality and wouldn't be so harsh as to bring up why amputees don't get miracles but some cancer patients do. . . .)

You can definitely get closer to an idea of what a person believes regarding there concept of god.

But a solid definition not actually based on faith yea, not going to happen.

People who are just spiritual seem to me to be more pure and tend to understand more science, this is something that cannot be argued with, it also has alluded any real proof.

So in conclusion if god is provable, it does not appear that we have the evidence yet . . .

Ampdog wrote:



No offense, but if this is as far as you can stretch your mind you are still inside of a very small three dimensional box. (This sounds like a very typical and common concept of a generic God.)

Now go a little further with it. Assume this god exists. Describe it or him or her. Where does this entity exist and what does It do now (since this physical universe is apparently created already.) What goes on in this place you say transcends the physical universe and what kind of world is it? Does any other entities live there with this god?

JB

I guess I might pose that same inquiry because Im confused. One god or multiple in this Christian Pantheon?

One god-

Deuteronomy 4:35

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Alright. Then a lot of other miscellaneous gods.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, let US make man in our image.

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of US, to know good and evil.

Genesis 11:7
Let US go down, and there confound their language.

Exodus 15:11
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the GODS?

Just how many people are we dealing with here? You need to straighten this out I think otherwise Im just going to feel compelled to harp on it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-BSHWwLLLgC&dq=Jewish+Trinity&pg=PP1&ots=zh0wb7GV6B&source=bn&sig=rOc0Jtt55Hl3dss-2h7ObSBMufA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

I hope this helps.

No, I cant say it does. The Jewish Trinity? Can you point out something that might be a little less broad?

I'm not sure what you mean...

The book "The Jewish Trinity" uses the Old Testament to show that those who spoke of God in the Old Testament did so as one would discuss the Trinity in the New Testament. In other words, OT has God in three persons and the NT has God in three persons. So no pantheon, just one God in three persons. Maybe God is suprarational (not understandable by reason alone; beyond rational comprehension)? I have read various explanations of the Trinity and while I can't agree with any of them 100%, I feel they all might have a seed of truth.

that is so right on and very wise

Amen sooo beautiful

Alright I'll look. You can also utilize Funches thread for a clear definition of the holy trinity.