drivin....it never occured to me the way you said it (car taxes, house taxes, etc) ty

each one here has great insight, but somehow all have to be put toegther, and that challenge will be the great hurdle, that we will indeed surmount driven...

not exactely dragoness, but no need to apologize ever, as if i deemed you the incompetent one, than what greater communication could i ever learn, lol???

all communication is good, and lead to solving in me book, lol...

what you say is true, but then do not all humans think differently???

each is unique, and has lived a totally exclusive life, so to hold to this, using it as a whole truth, would only but serve to provide the logic a good reason to place the lack of understanding on something else, and this is indeed what my most ignorant self was trying to explain, lol...

i was trying to say, that basically, if all that has happened so far, is not first seen as most excellent, even in each jot and tittle, which come from seeing all things first as equally intelligent to self, than only blame will try to fix, which can fix nothing, and only lead to more dead ends paved as good intentions, which indeed seems what you have against some of the ideas presented as solutions.

this was not pointed at you personally, or anything else personally, just as a blanket statement of what any greater logic must be???

peace out guys...

I don't mind paying taxes for everything, it is the cost of freedom. I am not going to sit around and whine and cry about taxes when taxes are what makes this country go.

You can complain all you want and talk bout "how it used to be", but that still doesn't make it constructive. We are not in the old west anymore.

If you think about our past in this country, it is not so glorious. We had vigilante justice, we had racial discrimination of criminal proportions legally, we had women as under class citizens, we had children as underclass citizens, abuse of both was legal, we had religion running reckless in the streets legally, etc... and so on.

I welcome the evolution of man to enlightenment from the dark ages. In this process we will all have to change and conform from the ugliness of what was previously accepted behavior.

The constitution is a building block, it is not a dictate forever, to cling to because we are afraid of change.

I don't take any of it personally. I see it as a point of view and every one has one. Conflicts are always going to happen, it is what we do when we conflict that is the important thing.

Taxes have a purpose. Without taxes our schools wouldn't have teachers. We wouldn't have police officers and firefighters. My city wouldn't have beautiful parks and a zoo. And more!

What better way is there to adjust for the future than to learn from the past?

We are turning into exactly what our forefathers ran from. You say taxes are the price of freedom. Funny thing is you are giving your personal property to anyone that is chosen to be your leader.

You lose sight of many things. Look at history, it will teach you the oversized government, and overspending, central banks, fiat currency, etc. all have caused some serious damage in past cultures (Rome, Greece, etc.) The irony is they are all bluntly against our constitution. Yet, you see the constitution as being outdated, and all these damaging things as being positive changes. Benjamin Franklin said it best; "Never confuse motion, with action."

So i suggest simply that we roll back some of these changes that were said to cause our problems, instead of creating temporary solutions. Treat the disease, not just the symptom right?

I personally feel, without any government help of any kind, that i could make something of myself. I feel confident that i can put food on the table. In fact, i'm sure that i will be able to help my neighbors if they ever needed help with anything. I feel like i don't need a master to dictate my every move. Just give me a safe place to set up roots and let me do as i will.

Unfortunately, the impression i get from you is that you think we all need masters. We all need to be taken care of because we are all too incompetent to do so. Maybe you are right. Maybe mankind has "progressed" to a point where they need mommy and daddy to make sure they are financially secure, and they don't take on bad habits. I don't want that. Our forefathers fought against that. I have taken an oath to fight against that.

Of course we need to pay taxes. But things are getting rediculous. We are losing sight of where our taxes are going.

Did you know that most, if no all, of the money you give Uncle Sam simply goes to paying interest on our national debt?

Can you imagine what it would be like to have no national debt?

We wouldn't need an income tax, that's for sure.

If our government were to be constitutional we wouldn't be at war with iraq, we wouldn't have troops stationed anywhere around the globe. Afganistan would be over with. Healthcare would be cheaper, gas would be around 70 cents a gallon, and who knows what else. Hell we may not even need gasoline with a free market. Our education would still be number 1. And the best part about all this, is we would be paying 60% less taxes. Which means the cost of living would drop drastically.

We pay at least 50% of our income in taxes. This is foolish. This is foolish because the money is wasted on things that just don't work. It is wasted because people want to be taken care of for the rest of their life. It is wasted, because instead of protecting eachother, we turn to our elected officials for everything.

Some things we need. But most things we don't.

Obviously you know me not and misunderstand me completely.

Taxes are a cost of freedom without them the government could not do it's job. Is it's job mastery over us? No You can set up roots and do as you will anywhere you want as long as you pay your taxes like the rest of us and that is as it should be.

Perception here is off for you and I. I am completely responsible for myself also. I believe it is best for the welfare of the human mind for all humans to be responsible for themselves however am I the judge of and jury of making that happen for all mankind, no and neither are you. I cannot judge if another human is being undeservingly dependent on others or if they really are in need of the help. And you cannot judge that either and I will fight to make sure that you will not be able to make that judgement. There has to be an unbiased entity to make this determination and it will always fall to the government to do it. As it should be.

In my mind the first and foremost thing in peoples lives that makes them dependent is their family and religion. If we can get more people to take parenting classes and pass before they have children this dependency would phase itself out eventually. Certain religions that teach that as long as you attend church and ask for forgiveness you can be as irresponsible as you want with no fear in sight of consequences helps to create an evironment of irresponsibiltiy to oneself, family and society. If both of these were fixed we would have less of a problem with dependency in general. Will it happen? I doubt because they would scream that I am taking their rights away to be free. And I would be. So I cannot judge them if it is their right to continue to perpetrate the dependency through their freedoms.

If you are lucky enough in your life to never need to ask for help from the government good for you but others will not be so lucky and you or I cannot judge them for it.

The constitution is a building block not a forever dictate. We need to build on it and add to it to make it more because we are outgrowing it. Which is not a bad thing, we should always outgrow old philosophies because our minds should be more evolved than those who created the old documents.

If the government isn't to be our masters explain seat belt laws, or laws against drugs. Explain why i need to get permission to add a porch on to my house, on property i already own. Explain WHY i have to pay 50% of my income now, and when i'm a doctor, 75% of my income then (this discourages people from advancing)? Explain why when i ask the IRS to track my money, and report to me where it went they won't. Explain to me why i have to pay for these things i don't approve of, and that don't benefit me at all?


Taxes are necessary. But you fail to understand our excessive, wasteful spending is causing our taxes to be 2 or 3 times higher than it should be.


The key word here dragoness is "add". "Not scratch this rule out."

Within these guidelines we add to the document. The guidlines are set up ensure the government doesn't collapse or inprison us. That is why they are there. In fact that brings me to my next point. Our founder fathers were much, much smarter than our leaders today. We SHOULD have evolved. But instead we are using techniques that have failed countless times in the past. Our founding fathers knew this. That's why they gave our governmenr rules like; gold and silve coin being the only legal tender. And rules like congress having the power to issue money, and regulate the value thereof (NOT A PRIVATE MONOPOLIZING BANK). Fiat currency, which is our dollar, has caused many civilizations to crash.

Guys, am i really being unreasonable here?

All i want is for our government to obey the law, and spend responsibly. That's all i ask. It see it solving almost all our current problems. Doesn't anyone else? Am i being Illogical?

Driven, the laws for buildings are for the safety of the people building them, it comes from having buildings of shoddy build kill people. This is completely understandable. And necessary.

The tax rate has been a discussion for a long time and will continue to be so. The rich do not want to pay all the taxes they would be required to pay if they had just a standard tax across the board so we have the rate we have now with all kinds of loop holes in them so those doctors do not end up paying as much as the middle class citizen. I know of these tax loop holes because I have money in the family and I have seen the loop holes they use to get out of the taxes they should pay.

Taxes are a necessity and they will not ever go away. As the population grows the taxes will have to be more to cover all the new expenses from the population growth. It will not ever go down, ever. Until the human race population reduces drastically. So that is just a fact of life.

I admire the founding fathers also, but to say they are smarter than us today is a stretch. The evolution of man continues on as it should and we need to continue to grow not look back and stay stuck.

We need to build on their ideals not use them as the only way to go forever.

Once again you and i will simply not agree on some things. Laws that are "for your own good" or "for your own safety" or, you know what i mean, are just silly IMO. Survival of the fittest. This is nature. Trial and error, this is how we learn. Seatbelt laws and helmet laws are only meant to protect yourself. Same with making drugs illegal,and probably 89234928370492 other laws in the books. I think people should be educated, instead of sheltered. I think if they are stupid enough to continually use drugs, that is their responsibility. And they should take responsibility for it. Same with seatbelt laws and helmet laws.

And the building permits i speak of are not just for regulation. They are a tax. That is their purpose. Some codes are for safety, but many are just plain stupid. Some are for efficiency.

But a permit for a $2,500 permit for a porch? Oh yeah this permit has a timeline too. You don't build it within a year you need a new permit. My sister ran into this when building her house. She had to give an extra $1,000 a permit to extend it. Anyhow...

Another ting i want to clearify is that doctors are not typically upper class. Most make under $200,000. Entry level is about $125,000. The retarded thing about that is the fact that medical school is currenty about $240,000. Kinda sick huh? You need a 4 year degree before going so you can add about $30,000 to that total. Basically you have a mortgage to pay off when you get out.

You are right, there are loopholes when it comes to money. But they aren't as beneficial as you think. They are things like donating you charities to throw yourself into a lower tax bracket, or if they feel like being illegal they might say that they paid a employee more than they did, etc. Nickel and dime. But you will find, even with these loopholes that the top 5% of earners are responsible for more than 50% of our tax money.

Have a friend whose mother is an RN with a 4 year degree. She got promoted after a few year, but took a $500 pay cut as a result. You see she was put into a larger tax bracket so that extra $10,000 a year turned into a $500 burden. This is a discourages advancement. hell just look at our welfare system. The minute you make an extra $10 a week, you lose $20 a week. This is why people come to maine to stay on it indefinitely. Benefits are great if you sit on your couch all day. It is our own fault as well for having no term limits.

Their ideals were limited government power, responsible government spending, more power to local government and less to the federal.

Its not a stretch to say they were smarter. They knew their history. They knew what DIDN'T work. They also looked at things that would eventually destroy us and tried to prevent that. But as Jefferson said, "its a necessary consequence".

Our problem is, in thinking about the future, we forget about the past. It's ok to learn from our mistakes, but instead, we seem to want to repeat them.

Welfare has term limits now. So that doesn't happen anymore.

As for everything that you listed. Building stuff is a necessity regardless to the cost of the permits or whatever. If I build a house without permits using shoddy building materials and bad electrical and plumbing and after building it I decided to sell it to someone else who did not know that the building could not hold a piano or a hot tub because it was not built up to code and they died because of my bad decisions when building that would be my fault but noone would probably be able to pin it on me. They are a necessity.

Safety helmets and seat belts are really for the drivers or passengers own good. How infringing is that anyway?

Drugs are a whole bigger ball of wax that would take a whole lot of discussion. It is more of an impact on society than just the responsibility of the drug user. So we cannot go over that right now but they are right to restrict the use of and abuse of them. Whether they go about it right, I might say that is not effective.

The greater good should be balanced. If we go to allowing the government to govern the complete greater good for all citizens then we would not be allowed to ski, sky dive, mountain climb, swim in the ocean, camp in the wilderness, race cars, most sports, no weaponry at all including blades, fattening food, cigs, no alcohol, minimal driving, no motorcycles, no soda, etc.... So to imply the government is styfling is an exaggeration. When all of these things are contraban and more then we can complain about our freedoms.

First, the taxation thing, schools, roads that kind of thing is mainly taken care of by the states. Federal Government provides some funds, but not if the school doesn't teach what our Central Government commands them too, case in point, Bush's Abstinence only crap.
Also, there is supposed to be no taxation without representation, who represents whom, when they pass bailouts and stimulus packages and huge spending bills loaded with bizarre earmarks even though it went in opposition to what the Citizenry has been screaming for them to do, which is stop all the free money.
Second, all this talk about Government ruling over all would be just freaking peachy if we had angels in government, but it's been shown that it takes a certain type of meglomaniac to seek the footholds of extreme power without having to be talked into it (Paul and Kucinich come to mind, they had to be talked into it)
The solution has been expressed, return to rule under the Constitution, return to sound money, stop the money presses and the out of control spending and educate and learn.

Property rights are usurped, states rights are usurped, power continues to be centralized in an uninterested and corrupt system, how can Obama claim to want to clean up banking, by utilizing a system thats patently just as dirty, if not more?

freedoms and taxes have little to do with each other - other than the protection of those freedoms by military spending. The truth is, where you believe that taxation and social programs protect the "freedoms" of the poor, they in fact remove liberties of everyone not receiving the benefits.

They do no such thing. That is rhetoric that tries to incite anger and frustration.

In my mind the first and foremost thing in peoples lives that makes them dependent is their family and religion. If we can get more people to take parenting classes and pass before they have children this dependency would phase itself out eventually. Certain religions that teach that as long as you attend church and ask for forgiveness you can be as irresponsible as you want with no fear in sight of consequences helps to create an evironment of irresponsibiltiy to oneself, family and society. If both of these were fixed we would have less of a problem with dependency in general. Will it happen? I doubt because they would scream that I am taking their rights away to be free. And I would be. So I cannot judge them if it is their right to continue to perpetrate the dependency through their freedoms.

Your opinion and maybe not a valid view because it is skewed by rhetoric and insinutation.