You must misunderstand the definition of freedom. We do not have the legal capacity to not pay taxes. I don't pay them, I go to jail. There is no provision that allows for protest. If you want to help others, be my guest. Get rid of social programs and do it through non-profits. You get to feel better about yourself for helping others and I don't have to watch the government rape my liberties.

We are sure being dramatic for no reason huh? I'll say it again don't pay your taxes in protest and I will pay mine and be glad of the help it gives. Niether of our liberties are affected by this at all. It is rhetoric that makes you think it is.

One big problem about that private insurance is that not everybody has the money for it. When I was young, I didn't have the money for renter's insurance. Not all jobs have medical insurance. Many people can't afford it on their own. Not all jobs offer 401(K). It costs money to have IRA's and personal investments. If you have those things, I feel that you are one of the fortunate ones. Many people are living paycheck to paycheck.

You say the poor can have more if they have the drive. Some people don't have the brains for it. Some have physical or emotional problems. Some have mental disorders. None of those things are their fault.

Yes, the drop-out rate is sad. I don't think they like living in squalor. I think that sometimes they can't see outside of it. That's all that they know. I also think that if their parents can't read well, the kid's have a harder way to go.

I try to see what it's like to walk in other people's shoes. I see both sides of things.

I have a theory...

I theorize that when people are paying considerably(70 to 80%) less taxes (this includes inflation) they will be more able to afford this insurances and investments. Maybe educating the masses on wise investment plans would also help.

The burden of social programs has and always will fall almost completely on the middle class. When you burden the middle class its much harder to work yourself from lower class to middle. Its much harder to get ahead.

I think that is key. Instead of focusing on keeping people above water, we should focus on teaching them to swim.

Non-profit programs can benefit people just as much as government can. If fact, these non-profit programs i feel could do a much better job as they could make their own policies.

No, not really. you obviously do not know the definition of freedom so here it is:

freedom: the quality or state of being free; the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action.

Freedom is the full capacity to make a choice, liberties are the available choices themselves (by the economic definition). As you can see, we do not have the freedom to not pay taxes as there is a serious outside influence on the decision itself. Being that I am forced to either pay taxes or go to jail, my other liberties (i.e. what else I would do with that money) are very much dimished.

If you want to help others with your taxes and that's fine. I don't.

The only point your statement made was "Just do what they say, there is nothing we can do". Maybe i misunderstood but that's exactly what it sounds like.

Under this definition of freedom provided here, this country has never had freedom. Never have we experienced freedom from necessity or constraint in actions. So I guess you are saying this country has never had freedom then.

You definitely misunderstood, I said do not pay taxes if you have a problem with them. Please stop paying your taxes because they seem to be causing so much stress for ys.

Since they do not stress me I will continue to pay.

The only thing 100% and guaranteed in life is death. Nothing will ever be perfect and I never claimed it to be. Freedom has to be applied to topics individually and you argue that I can not pay taxes if I don't like were they are going and i argue that we do not have that freedom. I'm not arguing about how social programs violate my freedom; I'm talking about how they violate my liberties.

It does not interfere with anyone's liberties to pay taxes so that is not accurate. You have all the liberties afforded any American right now as you stand. You are no different than anyone else at the liberty level.

You realize that you just slit your own throat right? if I have the same liberties as every other american, then further social programs are not needed. Though I'll argue none are needed because all our liberties are the same regardless.

Liberties are not comparable they are absolute. My absolute level of liberties has been infringed upon due to my lack of freedom to pay taxes. If you cannot understand this statement then I can't help you.

You are right liberties are not comparable. You have the same liberties as all other Americans and it is fair for all the way it stands.

It is far from fair but I'm done here. You don't seem to understand the logic behind the science and you are simply arguing with your heart here.

Alright then have a great night with all your American liberties intact...lol

I'd like to break this down.

Social programs cause a need for higher taxes.

These taxes burden the middle class and make it more difficult for the lower class to become middle class, and the middle class to become upper class, etc.

Eventually what has happened in history (Rome,Greece, and many more locations), is that taxation turns the middle class into lower class due to increased cost of living. This creates a bigger need for social programs, which increases the cost. That increases the taxes even more, which turns yet even more middle class into lower class, increasing the demand for social programs yet again.

This is a vicious circle. with one inevitable end.

As the middle class shrinks, you have less taxpayers paying for these programs. So the upper class has to start picking up the slack. This turns the upper class (the ones that aren't connected anyway) into middle class, then even lower class. Eventually there aren't enough people to charge for these programs. And the people that depend on these programs begin to starve. Once again, you are treating the symptom not the cause.

There are also hundreds of billions of dollars unaccounted for every year that just disappear. There are also tens of billions of dollars spent on programs that have failed to make any improvement in our way of life because they just don't work. There are trillions of dollar spent every year in foreign aid and needless wars. Iraq, afganistan, sudan, pakistan, somalia, granada, panama, Bosnia, vietnam, etc.

Not to mention the fact that every single dollar the U.S. spends ends up being a loan, that we, the taxpayers, have to pay interest on.

This is foolish. This needs work.

I am not against taxes. Andrew is not against taxes.

What we are against is abuse of our taxpayer money.

Great way to dice it up, Drivin!

couldn't have said it better myself. excellent post

who would have thunk it....drivin be smart

indeed Driven, great insight into what was, and has always been created, utlimately in each past civilization???

what is the very root thinking, and logic used, that created such things to begin with???

surely it is seen, that not one here, have the individual power or abilities, to change the present system???

national governments of many, intertwined, each holding the current state of the world in it's hand???

corporations controlling trillions of dollars, another hand controlling the current state of the world???

the largest religious entities, another hand controlling the current state of the world???

the greatest schools of academia, another hand controlling the current state of the world???

the largest and most powerful and richest banks in the world, another hand controlling the current state of the world???

the largest and most powerful militaries in the world, all working toegther, another hand controlling the current state of the world???

all these entities hold your life in it's hands, and the life of your children, and your loved one's???

how do you propose to use your hand, to envoke the want of all these entities to change???

this seems to be the greatest question needing some good answer???