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| Topic: Recovering from religious extremism - Religiosity | |
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Thomas, He was brought up Catholic as a child. That much is true. What he turned into as an adult and why he did what he did....who really knows? Rose I find that hard to believe.Does it matter anyways?There are people who say they are Catholic and have never read a single page of the bible or set foot in a church.They only say it because their mom or dad is a Catholic.I just think this whole argument is stupid because you don't judge a person by what they say they are you judge them by their actions.The bible also says that people like Hitler will decieve many by pretending to be on the side of God and performing miricles only to kill people by the millions. If Hitler was saying he was killing everyone in the name of God or Jesus or what the bible said and if he was raised a Catholic we would have a debate here.He never said he was killing for God or Jesus or because of what the bible said.He was doing the opposite.End of story.Believe what you want. |
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I don't think it matters, myself. If your read my other posts I was saying that I wouldn't blame religion because someone HAPPENS to be of that religion any more than I would blame men because someone HAPPENS to be a man.
There are deeper triggers that cause these things. Even if someone did it in the name of religion and BELIEVED it, then maybe they are skewing the religion. JMO |
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 I remain ignorant as to whether "Hitler was a Christian" during his reign. To me, to answer that question I would need access to an honest expression of his personal thoughts on such topics as the Bible, the Christian 'God', Jesus, and the idea of 'Jesus as Savior'. If even a few of the claims being made about him here are true, then its obvious that his worldview was influenced by Christianity, and that he used Christianity. A casual perusual of the bible clearly demonstrates that by Hitlers actions - he was anything BUT a Christian. While I don't completely agree with Voileazur's statements - I agree with the sentiment behind his response to this statement. Portions of modern Christian religion encourages hostility towards Muslims and towards gays, which some would say is an 'un-Christian' attitude. I think V. is making a valid point. Just because the 'loving Christians' don't agree with such hostility, doesn't make that hostility any less a product of the modern Christian religion. Further, since when do Christian judge whether a person is a Christian based on their actions? I thought that acceptance of Jesus as your Savior was the key criteria? Making this determination based on people actions seems a bit convenient to me. Hypothetically, if some portions of Christian belief encourage such 'un-Christian' behavior - then anybody who is making this designation based on behavior would never see and acknowledge the connection - when confronted with the evidence of such a connection, they would always have the option of washing their hands of the consequences of the beliefs by disowning the person on the basis of their behavior. The whole Hitler was a Christian myth has already been discussed in this forum and debunked in every way.If Hitler belonged to any religion it would have been the Muslim religion since Hitler was obsessed with the total destruction of Jews.He banned and burned many books,burned Christian churhes to the ground,invaded other countries,killed millions of people,and wanted one world domination.This type of leadership and actions has nothing in common with Christianity and everything to do with Islam. As far as hostility towards gays and Muslims.I can't remember a single news story,article,or radio report of a group of Christians using violence towards gays or Muslims in the 35 years I have been alive.We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destory our religion.The liberal idea of Christians accepting everyone as they are and ignoring their actions is total nonsese.If Christians are just going to accept everyone as they are and turn a blind eye to their actions there is no point being a Christian as this is nothing more than Atheism.When you become a Christian it is your duty to stand up for immoral actions and to speak out against them.This also includes other lost and hopeless Christians who are doing everything the bible tells them not to do and saying they can do anything they like because God loves them regardless. Read your bible.God and Jesus spent probably 75% of the bible talks aboutwhat kind of people to stay away from.They told us who is evil,what is evil,and where evil comes from.This includes the homosexual lifestyle,other false religions and Gods,people who practice witchcraft,etc.People who claim they are Christians and are anything but,are worse in Gods eyes then people who don't believe in God at all. 'Recovering from extreme religiosity', is the topic of this thread, and there couldn't have been a better demonstration of 'The God Virus' than the comments made here by 'thomas'. With all due respect to you personally 'thomas', and I know you certainly wouldn't be one to agree with Dr. Darrell Ray's perspective, almost every line you wrote above could have been taken out of 'The God Virus', as salient examples of evertyhing gone wrong with the christian fundamentalist movement. I am not suggesting it the case for you 'thomas', but in this statement alone: '... This includes the homosexual lifestyle,other false religions and Gods,people who practice witchcraft,etc.People who claim they are Christians and are anything but,are worse in Gods eyes then people who don't believe in God at all...' ... one could easily conclude that once all the exclusions are made, one would be left with just that: a religion of 'one'! The hatred must stop 'thomas'. You wrote earlier : '... We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destory our religion. ...' Given this personal perception you have of gays and Muslims, how far are you prepared to go to defend YOUR RELIGION 'thomas'. If not you personally, whom among your 'friends' will stop the so-called 'corruptors' and 'destroyers' of YOUR PERSONAL GOD GIVEN RELIGION!!! That is a statement which is difficult to address 'thomas', other than to say that it is very close to what Hitler would have been overheard to say about the jewish people: '... corrupting and destroying his 'pure arian race' way of life...'. That is what this thread is addressing through 'The God Virus' 'thomas'. To what extent christian fundamentalists are going to be willing to go to 'defend' their righteous god, and personal beliefs, against the perceived threats of illusionary 'corruptors' and 'destroyers', whose only crime is to 'THINK' differently then the righteous christian fundamentalists!!! While I don't doubt that one must surely get a powerful sense of mission and purpose out of this 'religious soldier and defender', it is a delusion at best, a losing battle at worst, and a possible case of multiple stomach ulcers from all the bad energy. Cervantes, in his epic 'Don Quichotte de la Mancha', warned us all very clearly about the dangers of delusion. Don Quichotte is obsessed over books dealing with 'Chevalery'. The books so troubled his mind that he started to believe that he was a 'chevalier' himself, whose purpose and mission was to save and protect the oppressed through out Spain. It could be said that his 'chevalrie' books were like his bible, and that his life was lived straight out of his books. Later, near the end of his life, Don Quichotte gives up on reading 'chevalerie' books. He soon after regained his ability to think clearly and pragmatically, showing the greatest of wisdom to admiration of people surrounding him in his final years. Recovering from 'The God Virus'??? Cervantes wrote about that it would seem, more than 400 years ago. We have yet to learn the lesson! Ha,ha,ha man I have read some responses fluffed up by you take the cake!That response was so comical I can hardly type from laughing so hard! First off Mr proffesor...Christianity is not a believe it or die religion like Islam is.People have the free will to believe or not believe in Chrisitanity with no punishment from the church or other Christians.People every day including pastors and ministers leave the Christian religion and go else where including other religions and Christians don't say a word.The 3 billion plus Christians in this world were not chained to a wall and whipped into believing into Christianity.The had a choice and still have a choice to believe. Ohhhhh that hatred you speak about.Oh yes I do hate evil and sin.I hate it more than anything in the world.I do wish I could destroy all the evil and sin in this world.But you are telling me I should love it???As Christians we should just sit back and do nothing when evil and sin are all around us.Better you we should invite it into the church!You would have a hard time flipping a single page of the bible with out it warning you against evil people. I do not hate anyone.I hate their actions and look at them as broken with out Gods light.I pray one day they can become a Christian but I will not for one second support,or accept their unrepentant sins.A gay couple getting married in church is making a life long commitment to rebel against Gods word and you have a priest blessing that!One day Jesus will come back to this earth and guess what???He will not be going door to door asking if they have found Jesus.He is going to be front and center riding on Hells fury destroying everyone and everything that is against him. |
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Ha,ha,ha man I have read some responses fluffed up by you take the cake!That response was so comical I can hardly type from laughing so hard! First off Mr proffesor...Christianity is not a believe it or die religion like Islam is.People have the free will to believe or not believe in Chrisitanity with no punishment from the church or other Christians.People every day including pastors and ministers leave the Christian religion and go else where including other religions and Christians don't say a word.The 3 billion plus Christians in this world were not chained to a wall and whipped into believing into Christianity.The had a choice and still have a choice to believe. Ohhhhh that hatred you speak about.Oh yes I do hate evil and sin.I hate it more than anything in the world.I do wish I could destroy all the evil and sin in this world.But you are telling me I should love it???As Christians we should just sit back and do nothing when evil and sin are all around us.Better you we should invite it into the church!You would have a hard time flipping a single page of the bible with out it warning you against evil people. I do not hate anyone.I hate their actions and look at them as broken with out Gods light.I pray one day they can become a Christian but I will not for one second support,or accept their unrepentant sins.A gay couple getting married in church is making a life long commitment to rebel against Gods word and you have a priest blessing that!One day Jesus will come back to this earth and guess what???He will not be going door to door asking if they have found Jesus.He is going to be front and center riding on Hells fury destroying everyone and everything that is against him. Remember, that'll be His judgment, not ours... |
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Edited by
voileazur
on
Mon 12/21/09 11:00 PM
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I remain ignorant as to whether "Hitler was a Christian" during his reign. To me, to answer that question I would need access to an honest expression of his personal thoughts on such topics as the Bible, the Christian 'God', Jesus, and the idea of 'Jesus as Savior'. If even a few of the claims being made about him here are true, then its obvious that his worldview was influenced by Christianity, and that he used Christianity. A casual perusual of the bible clearly demonstrates that by Hitlers actions - he was anything BUT a Christian. While I don't completely agree with Voileazur's statements - I agree with the sentiment behind his response to this statement. Portions of modern Christian religion encourages hostility towards Muslims and towards gays, which some would say is an 'un-Christian' attitude. I think V. is making a valid point. Just because the 'loving Christians' don't agree with such hostility, doesn't make that hostility any less a product of the modern Christian religion. Further, since when do Christian judge whether a person is a Christian based on their actions? I thought that acceptance of Jesus as your Savior was the key criteria? Making this determination based on people actions seems a bit convenient to me. Hypothetically, if some portions of Christian belief encourage such 'un-Christian' behavior - then anybody who is making this designation based on behavior would never see and acknowledge the connection - when confronted with the evidence of such a connection, they would always have the option of washing their hands of the consequences of the beliefs by disowning the person on the basis of their behavior. The whole Hitler was a Christian myth has already been discussed in this forum and debunked in every way.If Hitler belonged to any religion it would have been the Muslim religion since Hitler was obsessed with the total destruction of Jews.He banned and burned many books,burned Christian churhes to the ground,invaded other countries,killed millions of people,and wanted one world domination.This type of leadership and actions has nothing in common with Christianity and everything to do with Islam. As far as hostility towards gays and Muslims.I can't remember a single news story,article,or radio report of a group of Christians using violence towards gays or Muslims in the 35 years I have been alive.We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destory our religion.The liberal idea of Christians accepting everyone as they are and ignoring their actions is total nonsese.If Christians are just going to accept everyone as they are and turn a blind eye to their actions there is no point being a Christian as this is nothing more than Atheism.When you become a Christian it is your duty to stand up for immoral actions and to speak out against them.This also includes other lost and hopeless Christians who are doing everything the bible tells them not to do and saying they can do anything they like because God loves them regardless. Read your bible.God and Jesus spent probably 75% of the bible talks aboutwhat kind of people to stay away from.They told us who is evil,what is evil,and where evil comes from.This includes the homosexual lifestyle,other false religions and Gods,people who practice witchcraft,etc.People who claim they are Christians and are anything but,are worse in Gods eyes then people who don't believe in God at all. 'Recovering from extreme religiosity', is the topic of this thread, and there couldn't have been a better demonstration of 'The God Virus' than the comments made here by 'thomas'. With all due respect to you personally 'thomas', and I know you certainly wouldn't be one to agree with Dr. Darrell Ray's perspective, almost every line you wrote above could have been taken out of 'The God Virus', as salient examples of evertyhing gone wrong with the christian fundamentalist movement. I am not suggesting it the case for you 'thomas', but in this statement alone: '... This includes the homosexual lifestyle,other false religions and Gods,people who practice witchcraft,etc.People who claim they are Christians and are anything but,are worse in Gods eyes then people who don't believe in God at all...' ... one could easily conclude that once all the exclusions are made, one would be left with just that: a religion of 'one'! The hatred must stop 'thomas'. You wrote earlier : '... We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destory our religion. ...' Given this personal perception you have of gays and Muslims, how far are you prepared to go to defend YOUR RELIGION 'thomas'. If not you personally, whom among your 'friends' will stop the so-called 'corruptors' and 'destroyers' of YOUR PERSONAL GOD GIVEN RELIGION!!! That is a statement which is difficult to address 'thomas', other than to say that it is very close to what Hitler would have been overheard to say about the jewish people: '... corrupting and destroying his 'pure arian race' way of life...'. That is what this thread is addressing through 'The God Virus' 'thomas'. To what extent christian fundamentalists are going to be willing to go to 'defend' their righteous god, and personal beliefs, against the perceived threats of illusionary 'corruptors' and 'destroyers', whose only crime is to 'THINK' differently then the righteous christian fundamentalists!!! While I don't doubt that one must surely get a powerful sense of mission and purpose out of this 'religious soldier and defender', it is a delusion at best, a losing battle at worst, and a possible case of multiple stomach ulcers from all the bad energy. Cervantes, in his epic 'Don Quichotte de la Mancha', warned us all very clearly about the dangers of delusion. Don Quichotte is obsessed over books dealing with 'Chevalery'. The books so troubled his mind that he started to believe that he was a 'chevalier' himself, whose purpose and mission was to save and protect the oppressed through out Spain. It could be said that his 'chevalrie' books were like his bible, and that his life was lived straight out of his books. Later, near the end of his life, Don Quichotte gives up on reading 'chevalerie' books. He soon after regained his ability to think clearly and pragmatically, showing the greatest of wisdom to admiration of people surrounding him in his final years. Recovering from 'The God Virus'??? Cervantes wrote about that it would seem, more than 400 years ago. We have yet to learn the lesson! Ha,ha,ha man I have read some responses fluffed up by you take the cake!That response was so comical I can hardly type from laughing so hard! First off Mr proffesor...Christianity is not a believe it or die religion like Islam is.People have the free will to believe or not believe in Chrisitanity with no punishment from the church or other Christians.People every day including pastors and ministers leave the Christian religion and go else where including other religions and Christians don't say a word.The 3 billion plus Christians in this world were not chained to a wall and whipped into believing into Christianity.The had a choice and still have a choice to believe. Ohhhhh that hatred you speak about.Oh yes I do hate evil and sin.I hate it more than anything in the world.I do wish I could destroy all the evil and sin in this world.But you are telling me I should love it???As Christians we should just sit back and do nothing when evil and sin are all around us.Better you we should invite it into the church!You would have a hard time flipping a single page of the bible with out it warning you against evil people. I do not hate anyone.I hate their actions and look at them as broken with out Gods light.I pray one day they can become a Christian but I will not for one second support,or accept their unrepentant sins.A gay couple getting married in church is making a life long commitment to rebel against Gods word and you have a priest blessing that!One day Jesus will come back to this earth and guess what???He will not be going door to door asking if they have found Jesus.He is going to be front and center riding on Hells fury destroying everyone and everything that is against him. The topic of this thread is religious extremism getting out of control. The God Virus, the book which middleearthing suggested as a basis for this topic, deals specifically with christian fundamentalism gone out of control. Pertaining to your strings of comments 'thomas', which clearly illustrate the author's point, I asked you a straightforward question, the answer to which would contribute to this topic. Here it the context and the question again: The hatred must stop 'thomas'. You wrote earlier : '... We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destory our religion. ...' Given this personal perception you have of gays and Muslims, how far are you prepared to go to defend YOUR RELIGION against the 'corruptors' and the 'destroyers' 'thomas'? |
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reminder everyone....please debate the topic or post and not the poster
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It has,was,and always will be Christian nations with Christian people,and Christian leaders that will bring peace,end Wars and suffering.It will always be countries that are not Christian that will start wars,invade countries,and bring misery. This is beautiful. I hope everyone is taking note of the implications of this. (Thomas, again, I'm not arguing with at this time. You are simply sharing your point of view, as a Christian.) |
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With your 'Don Quichotte' like over the top statements, you are fast becoming my favorite token fundamentalist christian 'thomas'! But hold the fancy fencing for a moment and please take the time to answer the question I asked earlier. Here it is again: The hatred must stop 'thomas'. You wrote earlier : '... We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destory our religion. ...' Given this personal perception you have of gays and Muslims, how far are you prepared to go to defend YOUR RELIGION against the 'corruptors' and the 'destroyers' 'thomas'? I can see where you are going and I am not going to play your game.Maybe I will find your God virus book in the bargin bin of some liberal book store somewhere where I can purchase it and throw in in the fireplace to keep me warm. Shake the Dust from Your Feet - Luke 9:3-5 He said to the apostles, "When you travel, don't take a walking stick. Also, don't carry a bag, food, or money. Take for your trip only the clothes you are wearing. When you go into a house, stay there until it is time to leave. If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them." |
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It has,was,and always will be Christian nations with Christian people,and Christian leaders that will bring peace,end Wars and suffering.It will always be countries that are not Christian that will start wars,invade countries,and bring misery. This is beautiful. I hope everyone is taking note of the implications of this. (Thomas, again, I'm not arguing with at this time. You are simply sharing your point of view, as a Christian.) Once again I urge you to debate instead of personal blah blah.Why don't you find some facts debating that statement? 
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Oh yes I do hate evil and sin.I hate it more than anything in the world.I do wish I could destroy all the evil and sin in this world. But you can Thomas! Join my church - the Guiding Light Church(tm)! We 'destroy evil' every day. Its very satisfying, it feeds our deep, deep desire for... righteousness! But you are telling me I should love it???As Christians we should just sit back and do nothing when evil and sin are all around us.Better you we should invite it into the church!You would have a hard time flipping a single page of the bible with out it warning you against evil people. Yes! Its all in the Book! I do not hate anyone.I hate their actions and look at them as broken with out Gods light.I pray one day they can become a Christian but I will not for one second support,or accept their unrepentant sins. We at the Guiding Light Church recognize that the SOUL is what really matters. We love the souls of the sinners and the unclean, and we seek to liberate them not only from their evil, evil actions - but their enslavement to the vehicle of those actions. One day Jesus will come back to this earth and guess what???He will not be going door to door asking if they have found Jesus.He is going to be front and center riding on Hells fury destroying everyone and everything that is against him. Amen! What wonderful imagery! We use this kind of thing in our promotional materials all the time. Its great! ------------------------- Okay, I was just kidding. But I think the point is very important to the future of our species. |
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Maybe I will find your God virus book in the bargin bin of some liberal book store somewhere where I can purchase it and throw in in the fireplace to keep me warm Memetic isolation! Another technique of the Guiding Light Church(tm) - our Warriors for Christ never have doubts! Once again I urge you to debate instead of personal blah blah.Why don't you find some facts debating that statement? Because, at this time, I'm not interested in changing your mind about anything. At this moment, I wouldn't change a thing. I am curious about more of your beliefs, though. |
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I have two brief points about christianity, as I have been taught.
The first, is that at no time did my religios beliefs promote harming others. The second is that, in my opinion, saying that christians should feel responsible for christian fanatics, is like saying black folks should feel responsible for black criminals, or women should feel responsible for abortions and prostitution. IN the end, once we are adults, we all have the CHOICE to behave or not behave in the way that suits our lives. It is why children from the same family can grow up and be different as adults(because they CHOSE to). I do not now or will I ever feel my mom should take responsibility for my failures as an adult or credit for my successes. Harmful people would harm others regardless of the convenient reason, that they may be harmful AND claim to be christian, is no more cause and affect than if they are harmful and male, or harmful and a minority. Because two separate traits happen to be a part of someones background does not make proof that one trait CAUSED the other. |
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Edited by
voileazur
on
Tue 12/22/09 12:01 AM
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I have two brief points about christianity, as I have been taught. The first, is that at no time did my religios beliefs promote harming others. The second is that, in my opinion, saying that christians should feel responsible for christian fanatics, is like saying black folks should feel responsible for black criminals, or women should feel responsible for abortions and prostitution. The point was 'disowning'. No one asks that you be responsible for someone elses' actions. But I don't believe it would cross your mind to excommunicate (disown) someone from being black, because of a crime he/she would have committed. |
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I have two brief points about christianity, as I have been taught. The first, is that at no time did my religios beliefs promote harming others. The second is that, in my opinion, saying that christians should feel responsible for christian fanatics, is like saying black folks should feel responsible for black criminals, or women should feel responsible for abortions and prostitution. The point was 'disowning'. No one asks that you be responsible for someone elses' actions. But criminal or not, I don't believe it would cross your mind to excommunicate (disown) someone from being black, because of a crime he/she would have committed. Because being black is not about something someone chooses and not based in works. |
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I have two brief points about christianity, as I have been taught. The first, is that at no time did my religios beliefs promote harming others. Its is extremely rare that any Christian in the USA every advocates harming others, period. I find it far more interesting that certain beliefs are set in place which could so easily be 'co-opted' for the purpose of harming others. This is clearly shown in the last few pages, to the alert and objective reader. The second is that, in my opinion, saying that christians should feel responsible for christian fanatics, is like saying black folks should feel responsible for black criminals, or women should feel responsible for abortions and prostitution. I don't see this at all. Being black or female is not determined by one's belief, nor does it, be definition, strongly influence one's beliefs. (Of course, it can, but when the son of a white klansman decides to reject bigotry, he stops being a klansman. He doesn't stop being white.) On the other hand, religion is a matter of belief, and it helps to shape a persons belief. Further, peoples actions are influenced by their beliefs. The violent white klansman might be violent because he is a klansman, but not because he is white. This is very, very different. Note that I'm not saying Christians should feel responsible. Personally, I think the best world is created when the largest set of people take responsibility - and I consider 'violence in the name of Christ' to be partly my responsibility, simply as a member of our society. The most interesting question, to me, is not 'should Christians be held responsible' but 'do Christian beliefs encourage violence'. This is where I have an issue with convenient re-labeling any violent person as 'not a Christian.' Oh, how nice. Harmful people would harm others regardless of the convenient reason, that they may be harmful AND claim to be christian, is no more cause and affect than if they are harmful and male, or harmful and a minority. There are some people out there like that, sure. But there are others who would not have been moved to violence if they didn't have the beliefs which dovetailed with other factors. |
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I have two brief points about christianity, as I have been taught. The first, is that at no time did my religios beliefs promote harming others. Its is extremely rare that any Christian in the USA every advocates harming others, period. I find it far more interesting that certain beliefs are set in place which could so easily be 'co-opted' for the purpose of harming others. This is clearly shown in the last few pages, to the alert and objective reader. The second is that, in my opinion, saying that christians should feel responsible for christian fanatics, is like saying black folks should feel responsible for black criminals, or women should feel responsible for abortions and prostitution. I don't see this at all. Being black or female is not determined by one's belief, nor does it, be definition, strongly influence one's beliefs. (Of course, it can, but when the son of a white klansman decides to reject bigotry, he stops being a klansman. He doesn't stop being white.) On the other hand, religion is a matter of belief, and it helps to shape a persons belief. Further, peoples actions are influenced by their beliefs. The violent white klansman might be violent because he is a klansman, but not because he is white. This is very, very different. Note that I'm not saying Christians should feel responsible. Personally, I think the best world is created when the largest set of people take responsibility - and I consider 'violence in the name of Christ' to be partly my responsibility, simply as a member of our society. The most interesting question, to me, is not 'should Christians be held responsible' but 'do Christian beliefs encourage violence'. This is where I have an issue with convenient re-labeling any violent person as 'not a Christian.' Oh, how nice. Harmful people would harm others regardless of the convenient reason, that they may be harmful AND claim to be christian, is no more cause and affect than if they are harmful and male, or harmful and a minority. There are some people out there like that, sure. But there are others who would not have been moved to violence if they didn't have the beliefs which dovetailed with other factors. I think the nature of my religious beliefs is about choosing God and choosing to follow the life he set in place for us. The semantics of it all can make for an interesting debate, but to follow the example of Jesus, is not to harm others and those 'Christians' who do so are an example of the fallen and not the definition of what christianity is meant to be. I do not feel christian values encourage violence, but I believe mans(human) nature does. |
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Edited by
massagetrade
on
Tue 12/22/09 12:14 AM
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The point was 'disowning'. No one asks that you be responsible for someone elses' actions. But criminal or not, I don't believe it would cross your mind to excommunicate (disown) someone from being black, because of a crime he/she would have committed. Because being black is not about something someone chooses and not based in works. I can see how this is convoluted... this is how I see it: Person A: Christian beliefs set the stage for violent people to act on their violent tendencies! Person B: No! If someone is violent, they are not a Christian! They have nothing to do with us! By their very actions, they show they are not Christian! Person A: Take some responsibility for the possible consequences of the beliefs which you help to promote - you can't pretend they are no influenced by Christian beliefs just because your definition conveniently excludes anyone with violent actions. Person B: But you can't blame all Christians for the actions of some, any more than you can blame all blacks for the actions of some! Person A: That has nothing to do with beliefs (Neither person A nor person B is anyone in these forums - this is a summar of an exchange involving at least 5 people, who each probably had a different point to make...) |
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The point was 'disowning'. No one asks that you be responsible for someone elses' actions. But criminal or not, I don't believe it would cross your mind to excommunicate (disown) someone from being black, because of a crime he/she would have committed. Because being black is not about something someone chooses and not based in works. I can see how this is convoluted... this is how I see it: Person A: Christian beliefs set the stage for violent people to act on their violent tendencies! Person B: No! If someone is violent, they are not a Christian! They have nothing to do with us! By their very actions, they show they are not Christian! Person A: Take some responsibility for the possible consequences of the beliefs which you help to promote - you can't pretend they are no influenced by Christian beliefs just because your definition conveniently excludes anyone with violent actions. Person B: But you can't blame all Christians for the actions of some, any more than you can blame all blacks for the actions of some! Person A: That has nothing to do with beliefs But christianity is a set of beliefs. If I were to say I am muslim but I were to go to a synagogue and pray to Mary..what would that make me? Would I truly be muslim because I claimed to be so, or doesnt the beliefs that my ACTIONS dictate I have play a part in it. People can claim to be christian but if they are believing in something contrary to what Christ taught, they are not living as a christian. I do not know anyones personal relationship with christ to defend or refute their christianity, but I can observe their behavior and listen to their words and determine if they are CHRIST LIKE, which is a central part of living as a christian. |
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I think the nature of my religious beliefs is about choosing God and choosing to follow the life he set in place for us. The semantics of it all can make for an interesting debate, but to follow the example of Jesus, is not to harm others and those 'Christians' who do so are an example of the fallen and not the definition of what christianity is meant to be. I do not feel christian values encourage violence, but I believe mans(human) nature does. Taking this line: but to follow the example of Jesus, is not to harm others I address this to Christians in general, not just Ms Harmony. These are mostly rhetorical questions. Physical harm, or other kinds of harm? Harm to their bodies? What about not actually harming others, simply advocating the harm of others? What about suggesting that others are 'less' ? What about being passionately opposed to others? Suppose I don't harm anyone, but I tell someone else that a particular person is 'evil' ? I mean, come on, don't we all know that some people who might be inclined to violence would find it easier to become violent if they believe their 'enemy' is 'evil'? Isn't the simple act of labeling someone evil, in some way, an encouragement of harm against others? Or is this to subtle to matter ? |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Tue 12/22/09 12:27 AM
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I think the nature of my religious beliefs is about choosing God and choosing to follow the life he set in place for us. The semantics of it all can make for an interesting debate, but to follow the example of Jesus, is not to harm others and those 'Christians' who do so are an example of the fallen and not the definition of what christianity is meant to be. I do not feel christian values encourage violence, but I believe mans(human) nature does. Taking this line: but to follow the example of Jesus, is not to harm others I address this to Christians in general, not just Ms Harmony. These are mostly rhetorical questions. Physical harm, or other kinds of harm? Harm to their bodies? What about not actually harming others, simply advocating the harm of others? What about suggesting that others are 'less' ? What about being passionately opposed to others? Suppose I don't harm anyone, but I tell someone else that a particular person is 'evil' ? I mean, come on, don't we all know that some people who might be inclined to violence would find it easier to become violent if they believe their 'enemy' is 'evil'? Isn't the simple act of labeling someone evil, in some way, an encouragement of harm against others? Or is this to subtle to matter ? No, labeling others evil is much like labeling them inhuman, and is a common tactic used to make violence seem justified. Such labeling is not Christ like. Christ did not label any as less or better or evil, this type of labeling(of people) come from mans ego and need to feel superior. |
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