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However, as I've already pointed out, the Gospels clearly have Jesus stating that he has not come to change the laws and that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law.
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You left out the entire message he said at that very moment.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil

That has to be a mistranslation because the opposite of destroy is create, not "fulfill."

Unless the translation meant to mean "enforce."

If he has come to fulfill, then it is the prophecy, not the law that he is talking about.

If it is the law he is talking about then he might have meant that he has come to enforce it.

If this is true, then he is just a cop for God.

THE ENFORCER.

You can't "fulfill" the law.

What Jesus stated would be the same as you making plans with a friend to go to wallmart tomorrow *prophecy of what's to come tomorrow*. And you guys go, thus resulting in you not destroying that prophecy but fulfilling it.

Well, if you need to believe in a God in order to be an ethical person then I suppose it's good that you continue to believe.

I agree with JB, it makes no sense to 'fulfill' laws, it only makes sense to fulill prophecy. So I personally think that you'd have a really hard time selling your personal interpretations of the scriptures to very many people. Of course, apparently it's you who needs to believe these things, not other people. So it's unimportant that you're arguments are unconvincing to other people.

Just behave yourself and keep your chin up. Who knows? Maybe you'll get the gift you so desperately desire? I personally believe that we are all eternal, so if it makes you feel any better, I think you'll probably get your wish for eternal life.

And besides, if the atheists are right, then you'll never know that you didn't get it anyway, so that's a pretty nice consolation prize don't you think?

What does any of that have to do with LAW??

The law is the old testament. That was God's law, Jesus fulfilled it giving us a new law "new testament".

Definition of Testament *eg., old testament, new testament*
a covenant instituted between God and man, esp the covenant of Moses or that instituted by Christ.

The testaments are the LAW.

No, they are just books (scriptures) compiled. Books with stories. They are not laws at all. And why would they be? They were only written by men. They were not written by God himself. All men (and women) can be inspired by God to write books and testaments. Hence all books could said to be written by God.

Gods law is the law of Karma. The law of cause and effect. That is the only law you need to be worried about.

so laws in this world are only laws if written by the president or king of that country?

Well, first off, if what you say is true, then Jesus would indeed have come to "change" the testaments, and thus "change" the law.

But that goes against what the Gospels claim.

Besides, very few people would agree with you that Testament=law.

A testament is a testimony. Not unlike a testimony given in court. This is why the Bible is entirely hearsay. All fo the testamony is hearsay. And what these testimonies (or testaments) contain are the hearsay of people who either claim to have spoken to god directly (or through their dreams), or they are simply attempting to make a case that Jesus must have been "The Christ". A case that I personally don't even buy.

In other words, I heard all the testimony (i.e. read the testaments), and I'm not convinvced. So as in the analogy of a court, I do not find the testamony convincing. I recognize that it's all entirely hearsay and I personally do not find it even remotely convincing.

As to your claim that Testaments = law, I just shake my head in bewilderment that anyone could even suggest such a thing. I guess you fell for the testimonies. I did not.

here's the complete definition of testament...

1. (Law) Law a will setting out the disposition of personal property (esp in the phrase last will and testament)
2. a proof, attestation, or tribute his success was a testament to his skills
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms)
a. a covenant instituted between God and man, esp the covenant of Moses or that instituted by Christ
b. a copy of either the Old or the New Testament, or of the complete Bible.
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Jesus fulfilled the old testament *old covenant* and gave us the new testament *new covenant*

The only law that matters is the Law of Karma.

#1. Is a last will and testament. (i.e. a testimony of how a person would like to will their estate out)

#2. His success was a "testament" to his skills. (i.e. a testimony of his skills)

#3 simlpy states the obvious. Christians also use this term to refer to their scritpures.

In (a), it's actually an example of a "testimony" given about convenants.

In (b), again it's just a label that Christians call their scriptures.




For verily I say unto you, if your position is that a testatment is a convenant, and a convenant is a law, and Jesus came to change the covenant, then clearly he also came to change the law.

So it really doesn't matter. If you're claim is that testament = Law, and Jesus changed the testament, then by your own definition, Jesus necessarily changed the law.

But this conflicts with what the gospels attribute to Jesus. They have Jesus saying that he has not come to change the law (i.e. the testament, or covenant), yet you are claiming that he did change the law (i.e. the testament or covenant)

This kind of circular argument is meaningless, IMHO. It simply isn't supported by the gospels which claim that Jesus did not come to change the law, not one jot nor one tittle. So to claim that he did change the law is to reject what the gospels actually state.

again Jesus changed NOTHING. Jesus fulfilled, completed, finalized what we call the old testament and gave us the new testament.

Well, if he changed NOTHING, then old laws are still in effect.

So you're talking in circles.

I think the term "testament" means testimony. It is a story. It is not itself a law.

There may be some guidelines in the Bible that might be construed as laws, but that is not to say that the entire Bible is law.

I was an a student in English and I know you cannot "fulfill a testament." You "fulfill a prophecy." That is proper English. Of course the interpretations we are exposed to are not always accurate.

If Jesus changed NOTHING concerning God's "law", then there would be NO NEED for a "NEW Testament." (Except to tell the story of Jesus.)

And if all the the Old Testament is to be considered "Law" then they would still be burning witches and stoning children.

Now, if Jesus really did die for the sins of all mankind he did so even before we were even born and no matter what we do, we should not be punished.

But even this has some strings attached. You have to accept his sacrifice and be grateful to him (forever)for dieing for your sins and then follow him and serve him for eternity.

Some people even say that Jesus purchased our souls with his death.

Okay so you have Satan on one end who wants our souls, and Jesus on the other end wanting our souls, and then us in the middle.

Hey I just want to be free. I would want both of them to just leave me alone. I think they are both aliens anyway.

I am a sentient being, manifested by first cause. I have a right to be free. I don't want to serve or follow any false God. I think that anyone who claims to be "God" and wants me to follow him and worship him and obey him is a false God.

no i'm not, do you know what the words fulfilled, completed, and finalized meens?

Hey its not over yet. The Fat lady has not sang.

You still don't fulfill or complete or finalize a Law.

You pass laws and you enforce laws.
You break laws or obey laws.

This is straight from a dictionary of what testament meens.

1. (Law) Law a will setting out the disposition of personal property (esp in the phrase last will and testament)
2. a proof, attestation, or tribute his success was a testament to his skills
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms)
a. a covenant instituted between God and man, esp the covenant of Moses or that instituted by Christ
b. a copy of either the Old or the New Testament, or of the complete Bible

Gotta also take into consideration the difference of cultures from now. And laws aren't always like that, there is one law i know for a fact you can't break, denounce, or anything of such. The law of gravity. I used this to show you that the meening of law isn't exactly black and white, there are grey areas.

u r certainly patient,,,,