i support radical health reform. the system is completely broken.
it will have to be chucked and the sooner the better. i just think
we should go straight to single payer and stop wasting time and
money now.

for instance, the current health reform effort is doomed and here
is why.

it doesn't fix the ER revolving door.

poor people will simply not pay for insurance. yeah, i know, it
will be against the law. they still will not pay. uh oh. they get
sick! shocking. they go to the ER and they get treated. they don't
get turned away. it is a humanitarian thing.

the govt tries to fine them for not having insurance. they ignore
the fine. they're poor and they don't have the cash. they spent it
on malt liquor.

so in the end, we still have to foot the bill for all the ER care
and the people who are currently running our system into the ground
continue to do so exactly the same way they are doing it now. to
make matters worse there is a new ineffective and wasteful
bureaucracy trying to find and collect those without insurance who
can't and won't pay any fines. let's call this collection agency
"BFSA" the "blood from stones agency".

so we have created this massive govt oversight which can't do
anything and have not solved the insurance coverage problem and
have no means to deliver preventative care.

EPIC FAIL

then what? eventually everybody realizes that the only way to cut
the astounding amount of wasted public money from the system is by
going to single payer paid directly from tax dollars like all the
other developed countries in the world.

problem solved by the buying leverage of 300 million americans.
a day late and a dollar short.

and you heard it first on mingle2!

It will fail, but not for any of the reasons you mentioned.
Employees aren't going to be responsible for paying for it, per se, for the most part. Employers will. Additional payroll taxes, that the employee and employer will have to pay, will happen. Thus, driving the cost of having an employee up. Thus, driving the incentive to keep or hiring an employee down. This will be one of the final death knells for our economy.

And it's worse than that. One of the provisions of the health care bill deals with the IRS form 1099. It says that ANY goods or services that ANY business purchases that amount to $600 or more in a calandar year must be documented with a 1099. Can you imagine the tsunami of forms that will have to be filled out? Can you imagine the cost and time to small busineses? It's friggin ridiculous. Why would anyone want to stay in business or start one knowing how much MORE paperwork they'll have to do? Yet another death knell...

The best cure for the healthcare system is the free market economy. If you get rid of the insurance companies altogether AND absolutely deny services to anyone who won't pay. Right now, I'd rather go see a veternarian than a doctor. Vets are cheaper, there's no waiting, and because there's no insurance, one can bring enough cash in one's pocket to pay for services rendered.

"Lower-income Americans who can't afford to buy insurance will get help in one of two ways. The bill expands Medicaid, the free government plan for the poor and disabled, to anyone making up to about $15,000 a year. (About 16 million new people are expected to go into Medicaid or the Children's Health Insurance Program because of the bill.) Second, it would provide subsidies to people who aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid but still struggle to afford insurance. Individuals making up to about $44,000 would qualify for some kind of subsidy".

http://politics.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2010/03/22/what-is-and-isnt-in-the-healthcare-bill.html

Hmmmm... Care to rethink your theory?

Yeah yeah yeah ... right ... Look, the ONLY thing that'll work is REPEAL of this atrocity, and that just ain't gonna happen. Think it will? Okay - name ONE 'Entitlement' program that's been repealed. Just one. I'll wait ... Can't think of any? Awwww ... pity, that. The point is, even if the 'pubs take back the House AND the Senate, the BEST we can hope for is that they have the ballz to DE-FUND 'DeathCare' ... and that's not gonna work 'cuz another 'congress' [sic] can just RE-fund it later on when power shifts again. The only REAL solution is REPEAL ... and that, my friends, is NOT in the cards ... Pay up.

The people I'm talking about are those who would be supposedly
getting the inadequate subsidies etc. There are just a lot of
people who will not pay and there will be no credible penalty.

Private insurance is dead either way. That ship sailed - it is
gone and never comin back. They already blew it.

There will be no repeal. Might as well go ahead and take the next
step to single payer.

Failure is in the eye of the beholder.

it will need fixes in the future
just like every other legislation

the forced purchase through insurance companies is extortion and should be changed.
the basic needs of the people should be met my a non profit organization possibly guided by the Medical Universities. ...
not by a for profit insurance company middle man

what was needed most. Instead of reform, the bill targets one specific area; insure the uninsured. So what happens when we take on a project of this magnitude – from the Top down?



Currently, all doctors have to report any kind of suspected human abuse with specific targets of children to the elderly. It means medical staff must be trained to handle these situations AND there is no lack of administrative cost for the reporting. We don’t complain about that because it involves people who cannot defend themselves.

Now consider that any medical staff from hospitals to clinics being asked to complete paperwork on all those who are treated but have no insurance. Perhaps more staff – social workers, will need to added to assist these people in attaining insurance as most are probably poor and unaware of their options.

But that brings up another dilemma pertaining to ER s and urgent care facilities – they are not suppose to question people about their status as citizens (Civil rights issues) so how would they determine why someone is uninsured?

So I would have to agree with the above quote, we already provide medical services for free, in fact people come here or are brought here by citizens for the sole purpose of attaining very expensive medical treatment, especially for various cancers. They must be treated it is illegal to turn anyone away. (human ethics)



Hense, the reason I believe the current health reform is a top-down initiative. Many doctors in private practice have limited their Medicaid patients and there is currently a shortage of care providers accepting Medicaid.

In fact there is a very large shortage of all types of medical staff - so are we doomed to repeat the mistakes of Canada and the UK and find ourselves “waiting” to see a doctor, waiting to get a test? So it’s not just a question of how the current practicing physicions can undertake this huge issue of preventative care, the questions extends to how will we get in to see our own doctor when we have a medical problem? Back to the waiting and getting sicker all because we could not get a script for an antibiotic.

In an article by Shawn Tully (Money.cnn.com) the question of deciding if it’s worth paying the penalties is cheaper than covering employees has been explored by some major employers, including AT&T, Verizon, Caterpillar and Deere.

Here is a quote from the article:

[Caterpillar and AT&T actually spell out the cost differences: Caterpillar did its estimate in November, when the most likely legislation would have imposed an 8% payroll tax on companies that do not provide coverage. Even with that immense penalty, Caterpillar stated that it could shave $25 million a year, or almost 10% from its bill. Now, because the $2,000 is far lower than 8%, it could reduce its bill by over 70%, by Fortune's estimate. Caterpillar did not respond to a request for comment.

AT&T revealed that it spends $2.4 billion a year on coverage for its almost 300,000 active employees, a number that would fall to $600 million if AT&T stopped providing health care coverage and paid the penalty option instead. AT&T declined comment.

If these and, other large employers, determine it is financially beneficial to forego company insurance the employees would have to pay for their own insurance, probably through their state exchange. BUT – to remain competitive in the benefits area of employment …. I think the big question here is – which major company will be the first to choose the risk of loosing valued employees and that competitive edge?

The article goes on to say:
[The reason the bill doesn't add to the deficit, the CBO states, is that fewer than 25 million Americans will be collecting the subsidies the bill mandates in 2020.

Those subsidies are indeed big: families of four earning between $22,000 and $88,000 would pay between 2% and 9.5% of their incomes on premiums; the federal government would pay the rest. So policies for a family making $66,000 would cost them just $5,300 a year with the government picking up the difference: more than $10,000 by most estimates.

Another poster wrote:



Which reminded me – I never did look up what will happen to the already existing entitlement programs which insure children or subsidize families to have insurance for their kids. Do they just go away? ??

bottom line is - it will fail because democrats and republicans can't agree on anything...if the dems do something, the repubs will do everything they can to make it fail, and vice versa... it sucks.

But mandatory car insurance is not extortion? Is that because it promotes capitalism?
Actually health insurance and whatever cost will come out of tax revenue IS representative taxation – why? See below.



From a recent report from the Commonwealth's Joing Committee on Public Health,



That’s on top of each State’s setting up their own insurance exchange.

And many hospitals are already non-profit. The need for more urgent care clinics will see a great increase in these kind nonprofit agencies.

All of these agencies are primarily supported through Federal and State grants (entitlements).

Because these agencies are nonprofit they are public administrations and as such, how they are run is directed by Federal guidelines – which makes them a “representative” affiliate of government – public administration is often called the “fourth branch of government”. HENSE - Representative taxation.

This causes a BIG problem for the tens of thousands of small nonprofits who provide millions of people with charitable services – because with all the money being re-directed into the new nonprofit agencies supporting health care – many thousands of those small business will fold – more unemployed.



It will never be fixed because it will never be equal because our Constitution is focused on human ethics and because our civil rights laws extend to every individual in this country whether citizen, legal alien or illegal.

So it will always be unjust – biased in favor of the non-tax payer. But so has every nonprofit agency and most of the medical field been so biased – and so have most Americans and so they will remain – it’s about human ethics.

So I agree, failure is in the eye of the beholder – but just how much can our taxes be raised before we no longer see justice is supporting that ethical position?

I think people often don't realize how much money companies save by not giving people benefits for usually 3 months and often 6 months or longer when people start a job.Larger companies like UPS and Coors will often lay people off the day before they are supposed to get benefits and re-hire them right away so they will not have to pay for benefits.have worked for several companies that have done this.Even when I was working for Union pacific I didn't get benefits until I was there for a year.

The cost these companies save by doing these practices is in the hundreds of billions of dollars.Taking that away from them and slapping them with a 1200-1500 dollar a month per person medical bill is going to ruin this economy and drive prices to unheard of levels.Companies that employ tens of thousands like Boeing and Citibank are going to see monthly bills in the millions.

both are billion dollar a year companies

If the Dems or Repubs had brains they would do a investigation on why getting a operation at a hospital cost $35,000.Here's a idea!Maybe we should look at why everything that has to do with medical care is astronomical high.If I was the president I think I would look into making health care cheaper so people could afford it.

This health care bill is such a failure in so many ways.It still hasn't addressed the expensive cost of going to the hospital and all the fraud out there.Our Government is not ready to take care of every single person in America.It's a stupid idea.

i agree - seems like the doctors benefit the most.

I realize that but there comes a point where the more you tax and the more inflation you have the harder it is for these companies to survive.Union pacific may make 9 billion a year but it only takes in 1 billion in profit.Add 300 or 400 million in new taxes to this company and you are down to 600 million.Have a bad year and suddenly your paying 10 billion to everyone else,and taking home nothing.The company is going bankrupt.

yea, but i think the smaller companies have more to lose than the giants...they may pay less, have fewer employees, but they have way less room to maneuver(moneywise) than the big corps. JMO

I really don't know why they keep saying this health care issue is such a big problem to begin with.I know in my life health care was probably the last thing I was worrying about.I know all my family and friends didn't sit down and start telling me they were really worried about health care.All the jobs I have worked all offered health care.I just don't see the crisis other then the out of control cost the hospitals charge.

I understand the issue of going to the hospital for a major operation and getting charged half a million for the surgery.But it wouldn't matter even if you did have health care because most of them stop at around $50,000 dollars or less.Your screwed either way with or with out health care.

they don't care about us... as long as the doctors, lawyers, insurance, and drug companies stay rich, thats all they want. the fear and hope they instill in us will pay them... the fear of death and sickness keeps us going to the doctor, and the doctors say i can help you- it doesn't matter what the cost is, you will be saved. that will do it for most everyone, no one wants to die. take these pills that cost 400 dollars apiece, they will save you. it's all a scam, and they, all 4 of them, are the biggest con artists around.

there are LOTS of ways to game the system with the new legislation and they will all shift the costs to the taxpayer and reduce the overall accessibility and quality of care.

If these and, other large employers, determine it is financially beneficial to forego company insurance the employees would have to pay for their own insurance, probably through their state exchange. BUT – to remain competitive in the benefits area of employment …. I think the big question here is – which major company will be the first to choose the risk of loosing valued employees and that competitive edge?

The article goes on to say:
[The reason the bill doesn't add to the deficit, the CBO states, is that fewer than 25 million Americans will be collecting the subsidies the bill mandates in 2020.

Those subsidies are indeed big: families of four earning between $22,000 and $88,000 would pay between 2% and 9.5% of their incomes on premiums; the federal government would pay the rest. So policies for a family making $66,000 would cost them just $5,300 a year with the government picking up the difference: more than $10,000 by most estimates.

Another poster wrote:



Which reminded me – I never did look up what will happen to the already existing entitlement programs which insure children or subsidize families to have insurance for their kids. Do they just go away? ??




That's all fine and dandy for big companies. What about small companies? Y'know, where most people work. I used to pay a decent livable wage. Then they raised the minimum. Now my employees qualify and NEED public assistance (welfare and food stamps) because the price of everything jumped up so high. I can't afford to pay any more because all my costs went up too. Now I'm going to have to deduct more from my people's pay or pay a hefty penalty. I'm looking at having to fire someone to pay for all this crapola sandwich. And I guarendamntee you, so is every other small business. Yeah, that'll help out the economy.
Why oh why is it so damnably hard for politicians to consider the law of unintended consequences? Mark my words, when this comes into effect, unemployment will jump up another 10-20%.